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Port battle feedback - battles with BR limits

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Please provide feedback on the port battles with BR limitations

If you are providing feedback describe the port battle you participated in. We are not interested in theorists. Only practical feedback from real port battles. If you have screens it is going to be even more awesome. 

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Well, promised some more feedback:

As you heard from redii, noone of the 3 PBs today where really enjoying.
The nations attacking us all came with a smaller number of larger ships.
Noone of them had any chance to win the battle - it was almost feeling like a forfait for the attacking side.

The issue is with the players, and i do not think that it will get much better going forward.
For a nation to prepare a good fleet a lot of discipline is needed. Discipline to not take big ships only.
It is correct that it isn't that fun being frigate inmidst 4th and bigger rates, you dont get paid so to say.
This is a game, and PB's on the long run need to be fun for all contenders.

Also if you have a different fleets, options for different tactics in the portbattle get limited:
If you have many but smaller ships, you cannot brawl, depending on rate difference, you need to run around and just take circles (Camp due Roy).
In Grand Turk, Russians had about 2.5 times more bucces, so we couldn't brawl them (which is usually great fun against russians), so we had to kite (and i surely hate to do that).
In Santa Marta, the Dutch turned up in 1st rates (only?), so our team tagged them open world and sank them.

Now, if you would limit rates, that player issue might be fixed - but it would get even more complicated then now - so that is not vialable.
I somewhat enjoyed Grand Anse, but did not get any "pay" to speak of, for me, the fight is the pay, but others might not like to drive small ships vs large ones.

I still believe, and we proved it four times now, that the better organized team is almost assured victor, it does not help smaller/unorganized countries.

We will test further.

Edited by sveno
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20171101225713_1.thumb.jpg.9e4807230e9ea7d6e202022167696bc3.jpg

 

Portbattle at Camp du Roy. The french came with more than 20 players to screen us, but we just joined the PB. After a little bit these 8 gentlemen joined on attacking side.

We clearly had no chance to fight them in a brawl, so we chained them from distance and took all 3 circles. one circle was upwind so they couldnt reach it, middle circle was a fight of essex and surprise vs. 4  swedish shallow ships, so we kept that circle aswell after the big ones sailed downwind. The big ships reached the last circle at the end due to chaining. before there fought a reno and snow vs 2 rattles, one surprise and one essex.

Think the frenchies need to rethink their setup,

Edit: Wasnt fun in my eyes. Due to the French salt in Global after the Portbattle i think they didnt enjoy that aswell.

Edited by Abram Svensson
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Just now, sveno said:

Absolutely unhelpfull and non-needed comment Klooth. You should know better.

Fair enough. 

5 minutes ago, sveno said:

In Grand Turk, Russians had about 2.5 times more bucces, so we couldn't brawl them (which is usually great fun against russians), so we had to kite (and i surely hate to do that).

You never HAVE to do anything. You could have brawled, but you didn't. So you chose to run and kite. 


Cap circles don't work in this limited setup. Outnumber as defender, chain and cap circles. No fun can be had like that. Not really tactical either.

And I don't think it has anything to do with discipline either. Chosing to run because of numbers so you can cap cirlces in mechanics abuse in my eyes. Not fighting on purpose so to say.

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5 minutes ago, Cornelis Tromp said:

So yes. Running is once again Swedes favorite tactic.

This tactic working just proves that maximizing numbers in PB with smaller ships is better tactic, as circles are big and small ships can avoid combat with bigger ships and in the same time control the circles because of the numbers. As many suggested, we should test BR circle control system. Power of ships should grant control, not the number.

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Just now, Peter Goldman said:

This tactic working just proves that maximizing numbers in PB with smaller ships is better tactic, as circles are big and small ships can avoid combat with bigger ships and in the same time control the circles because of the numbers. As many suggested, we should test BR circle control system. Power of ships should grant control, not the number.

Indeed. Because it looks like the meta will now be NOT fighting in a defensive pb. Or offensive when it comes to that. All t-lynx pb's anybody? 

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5 minutes ago, Cornelis Tromp said:

You never HAVE to do anything. You could have brawled, but you didn't. So you chose to run and kite. 


Cap circles don't work in this limited setup. Outnumber as defender, chain and cap circles. No fun can be had like that. Not really tactical either.

And I don't think it has anything to do with discipline either. Chosing to run because of numbers so you can cap cirlces in mechanics abuse in my eyes. Not fighting on purpose so to say.

Having different fleet setups just locks you in the tactic you need to use.
That is exactly i was referring to. If we would have brawled you, we would have lost - you had 5 bucces and an Ocean vs our 2 bucces?
And yes, we might have had more Wasa's, but those would have been molten down too fast, not a viable tactic.

I hope that makes it clear for you why we could not fully engage you, and why i mark this in the feedback post as an issue.

Edited by sveno
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Camp du Roy:

Currently not a single ship can punch two sizes above its weight, so if you bring ships that are "too small" to a port battle, fighting simply is out of the question. We entered and saw we had a bunch of shallow ships because we expected them to bring smaller ships. Instead, we see 5 Wasa and a Bucentaure.

If we had gone in with all our ships against the French, we would have probably lost small ship after small ship to demasting, followed by broadside-execution from the Bucentaure. We obviously didn't want to throw away our ships like that, so we kited them from circle to circle, capturing them back from behind.
The problem with kiting in PVP is that it's pretty good entertainment for the side doing it, and sailing forward as the sails disintegrate for the side receiving it.

So you don't know in advance what your enemy will bring, and if you mismatch too much, no fight will be possible.  So next time they attack with fir / fir Wasa? And we defend with combat Wasas and easily win. The game becomes a huge game of Rock-Paper-Scissors at this point, because you have no idea what the enemy will bring. I believe the same thing will happen with 3400 BR battles. 

I think it would be far better to have a tighter limit on the ships that can be brought. For example, 1700 BR - sixth rates only. 3400 BR - 5th rates only, and so on. That would still force players to consider how to optimize that limit (and therefore increase ship diversity), and it wouldn't result in completely mismatched fleets that have no business fighting each other.

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3 minutes ago, Peter Goldman said:

This tactic working just proves that maximizing numbers in PB with smaller ships is better tactic, as circles are big and small ships can avoid combat with bigger ships and in the same time control the circles because of the numbers. As many suggested, we should test BR circle control system. Power of ships should grant control, not the number.

Would like to see a BR counter on the scoreboard then behind every ship and the total number on the bottom.

 

4 minutes ago, Cornelis Tromp said:

Indeed. Because it looks like the meta will now be NOT fighting in a defensive pb. Or offensive when it comes to that. All t-lynx pb's anybody? 

The two sides just need an equal fleet. You can come with 25 lynxes. If the enemy has shallow ships and less big ships he will win other time. These were the first setups. I would say let them evolve. There is no Meta right now.

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8 minutes ago, Peter Goldman said:

This tactic working just proves that maximizing numbers in PB with smaller ships is better tactic, as circles are big and small ships can avoid combat with bigger ships and in the same time control the circles because of the numbers. As many suggested, we should test BR circle control system. Power of ships should grant control, not the number.

I remember calling this 12 hours ago, and being ridiculed by various high profile posters for doing so. Oh well...

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3 minutes ago, Quineloe said:

Camp du Roy:

Currently not a single ship can punch two sizes above its weight, so if you bring ships that are "too small" to a port battle, fighting simply is out of the question. We entered and saw we had a bunch of shallow ships because we expected them to bring smaller ships. Instead, we see 5 Wasa and a Bucentaure.

If we had gone in with all our ships against the French, we would have probably lost small ship after small ship to demasting, followed by broadside-execution from the Bucentaure. We obviously didn't want to throw away our ships like that, so we kited them from circle to circle, capturing them back from behind.
The problem with kiting in PVP is that it's pretty good entertainment for the side doing it, and sailing forward as the sails disintegrate for the side receiving it.

So you don't know in advance what your enemy will bring, and if you mismatch too much, no fight will be possible.  So next time they attack with fir / fir Wasa? And we defend with combat Wasas and easily win. The game becomes a huge game of Rock-Paper-Scissors at this point, because you have no idea what the enemy will bring. I believe the same thing will happen with 3400 BR battles. 

I think it would be far better to have a tighter limit on the ships that can be brought. For example, 1700 BR - sixth rates only. 3400 BR - 5th rates only, and so on. That would still force players to consider how to optimize that limit (and therefore increase ship diversity), and it wouldn't result in completely mismatched fleets that have no business fighting each other.

Or maybe define the mix. 3400 BR but only 1 3rd rate, 2 4th rates and rest up to fill until 3400 is reached

Edited by Abram Svensson
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13 minutes ago, Peter Goldman said:

This tactic working just proves that maximizing numbers in PB with smaller ships is better tactic, as circles are big and small ships can avoid combat with bigger ships and in the same time control the circles because of the numbers. As many suggested, we should test BR circle control system. Power of ships should grant control, not the number.

I am afraid that this is not the solution, it might make it less rampant, but the team with more lighter ships then just sails to the other circles because they are faster...

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The 3 circle cap system should be scrapped. It was never a good mechanic in my view, now they don't even prevent kiting.

I was never a fan of the idea of BR limitations either, but the system cannot be discarded simply based on three days of port battles. The main difficulty is that the best laid plans can be destroyed by unforeseen and sudden events right before the port battle that force changes in fleet composition. But the first few battles only showed nations what combinations are possible and they could still be adapted and improved.

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I can atm only speak on behalf of the danish PB fleets single battle and there only on behalf of myself.

General thoughts:

I for one think the BR limitation provides an interesting variety to the port battles. If we look at the PBs before the BR limitation it favoured larger factions (the current one does as well), all portbattles were either 25 1st rates against 25 1st rates (or 4ths if it was a 4th rate PB) and it excluded to some extent a large playerbase that weren't max level (and player retention has been a huge problem). The current system adds value to each member that shows up, regardless of rank. This I believe is a strenght in order to retain players - port battles are normally fun, engaging battles that provide a lot to talk about later. It provides variety to the fleets which I think was much needed as well, I for one was getting a bit tired of watching the same ships in every battle and I think we've all lamented that the Bellona, the Bucentaure, the St.Pavel were basically worthless ships only used in PvE grinding.

 

From the single battle DK/NG has had during the current BR limitation:

The battle between Poland-Lithuania and Denmark-Norway was a battle between two smaller nations and while I can't speak for the commonwealth, we had a longer discussion about battlefleet composition, among other things a longer BR calculation (I was never a strong mathematician). We ended up opting for a smaller fleet in similar ships, with a few frigates with specific roles. Two items of note here was that the frigates were store bought - in the future we're going to see more specialization in the building of frigates for port battles. DK/NG were 2 players less in the portbattle than the commonwealth fleet, we had originally counted on being 14 vs 25, in the end due to the polish composition of their battlefleet it ended up being 15 (with a lynx on ourside joining late) against 17. Seems the commonwealth had given equally much thought to the fleet composition as we had and opted in a similar fashion to go with less to achieve more. Two observations: 1st: The opinion that tactics is limited in the PB when the shiptypes are more varied is imo a false premise. I'd argue that it gives more responsibility to especially the smaller ship captains since sound judgment is more important than before. I'd also argue the importance that the PB commander instructs the players before the battle as to their tasks in battle. So - more planning needed for portbattles. 2nd: I believe it is a premature statement that 25 fast players will be superior to an enemy fleet of 15-20 players. It comes down to the wind, the lay-out of the circles in connection to the port in question. In most of the PBs you can kite the opponent, but in the end there's only 3 circles and you have to capture 2 of them in order to win.. This means fewer ships in the circles will be at a disadvantage in the beginning but slowly (due to larger broadside weight) push or sink the enemy out of the circles. In short both kiting and brawling becomes valid tactics and while I dislike kiting I cannot for that reason alone argue that it shouldn't be possible.

 

Problems: 

The current BR limitation needs to be adjusted for most of the PBs. It's already been pointed out that some deepwater ports can only have 1700 BR while other shallow water ports can have 3400 (even if you could bring a niagara into a PB it wouldn't fill out the PB limit - i.e. negating the limitation on the shallow water port). I'd like to suggest that some of the ports remain at their current BR limit, but the deepwater 1700 BR ports get a limitation buff and the shallowwater ports are revisited - atm I've yet to find a shallow port that actually forces the PB fleet to consider the fleet composition. I also think that the battle limitation for all regional capitols should be around 12k partly in order to maintain a need for prioritizing in the fleet composition, but large enough to get epic battles with heavy actions.

Another issue is the rate of pointgains in portbattles. It is simply not possible to sink the enemy fleet in the 45 mins (+10) that is currently the time it takes for a fleet to win with two circles. I'd suggest reducing the pointgain of the circles to compensate. It will however become an issue when the opposing fleet decides just to set up PBs and not show, a way to counteract this could be to make pointgains significantly larger if one fleet controls all three circles at the same time.

Strenghts:

It makes the portbattles more varied and a lot more planning is going into the fleet compositions. It enables smaller nations to actually have a fighting chance against a numerically larger opponent. That this chance is ofc affected by winds, and the ability of the enemy to succesfully kite the smaller squadron isn't an issue in my opinion since the smaller squadron must be prepared to either sink enemy ships fast or loose the portbattle.

EDIT: And limit the repairs! 

Edited by Bearwall
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Honestly from my experience and what I have seen of the new BR limits.

1. I suggest BR limit adjustments possibly the following
Shallow - 1,500 / 2,000
Deep - 2,500 / 4,500 / 6,500 / 8,500 / 10,500

2. It seems we still need to test fleet compositions, I believe that capping Circles may need to be BR based - but I also believe it's too soon to say.

3. Maybe there is an argument to be said about limiting ships but I'm not sure we need to do that just yet.

4. I firmly believe that BR balancing and ship stat adjustment needs to happen before we change much though

Edited by Teutonic
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1 hour ago, admin said:

If you are providing feedback describe the port battle you participated in. We are not interested in theorists. Only practical feedback from real port battles. If you have screens it is going to be even more awesome. 

Please only provide feedback from real port battles that you participated in under the new BR Capped mechanic.

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Pb fight? like 500 in this game and since BR didnt got change for last whaT? year? beside wasa (wich  many suggested is almost like bellona) i think that this suggestion still valid

as well make circle capture be    BR based and not ship amount based.

 

BR MODIFICATIONS NEED:

The non sense of a conny having the same BR of an aga is just lol

my suggestions:     With motivations  

 

L Ocean    700          (old 625, it have no sense that ocean have less then santi when is superior in every sense)

Santissima 650        (same as before)    

Victory 650                (old 600, it need to be same of santi since performance are really similar.)

Bucentaure    500      (old 450, is obviously better then pavel)
St Pavel    470            (+20)

Bellona    420             (+20 for distance it from wasa)


Wasa     380                  (old 250, way too low for a 4th rate , also ppl made me notice wasa is stronger then aga)

Agamemnon    350      (old 250, way too low for a 4th rate)
Ingermanland    320    (old 250, way too low for a 4th rate but also perform less then other 4th so slightly less br)
Wapen     300               (old 250, way too low for a 4th rate but also perform less then other 4th so slightly less br)

Constitution    270      ( old 250,  now it have the correct br compared to 4th rates)
Indefatigable    250     
Trincomalee    230       (old 225 )

Endymion    210         (old 225 , is slightly less then a Trincomalee)
Essex    200                (old 180 )
Pirate Frigate    190   (old 180)
Belle Poule    180
Frigate    170
Hermione    160           (old 140)
Surprise    150              (old 140)
Renommee    120         (old 110)
Cerberus    110             (old 100)
Niagara    100
Mortar Brig    75
Mercury    70
Rattlesnake Heavy    80  (old 70, is no way rattle heavy is equal to a mercury)
Navy Brig    70
Snow    60                           (old 50, was too low )
Prince de Neufchatel    50
Brig    50
Pickle    40
Privateer    30
Cutter    30
Lynx    20

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Having participated in a full one today, I'll give a few thoughts.

Mighty Russia vs the Kiting Swedes.

F3B748D6534E961A31DF88BD39DC5356EDA943D0

The weather effects in the PB were nice.  Gotta admit that.

 

My initial thoughts on the BR is hey...cool mixed fleets.  But the more and more I think about it, the BR in PBs almost one sidedly benefits the defenders.  Especially if we're going to still use the same 3 circle capture maps.  The defender brings in more, lighter ships and then just kites around for however long it takes to win.  Without knowing the makeups of the fleets beforehand, it's almost impossible to match what your opponent is doing to bring.  

I'm just a grunt in the REDS clan so I wasn't privy to all the details, but I've commanded enough fights to get the jist of what their game plan was.  Use the 3 princes to either gain a circle OR split the forces enough so our larger/beefier force can make it to another circle and brawl it out.  Of course battle plans never go as intended and we just played tag with the swedes for 20mins and we never bothered to go to a circle.  Obviously the fight could of been won and I don't think Rediii didn't anything tactically brilliant to win it for his side, but he didn't really need to either.  This is where the advantage favors the defenders the most with this system.  Hold 2/3 circles and kite with faster ships.  Attackers move in, defenders go to a new circle.  Can't sink what you can't catch.  Especially if they can repair masts every 10mins.

I'm going to assume the BR in PBs is intended to do a couple of things.
- make the PBs more accessible on the clan level vs the national level.  Aka smaller clans have a shot.
- make PBs more diverse and perhaps more "historically" accurate
- pave the way to more of a clan oriented game.  

I think the BR has promise, perhaps it needs to be fleshed out more until a new "meta" is introduced.  I'm not sure the 3 circle style of map is the best choice for BR battles though.  A couple suggestions or thoughts I've been thinking on. 

- Maybe Make a minimum number of ship type for each style of battle.  3800 (5 4th rates) 5100 (5 lineships)  6800 (10 1st rates)...something like that.  
- BR of some ports absolutely needs to be adjusted.  3800 in a shallow port is absurd.  Especially when the attacker can't sail in anything other than shallow boats.
- Make a couple different new PB style maps or Bring back the old style for 1 port or 2.  Some variation might not be bad.  
- Maybe more than 25 spots in a PB?  Could you imagine a 40v40 shallow melee....
- Repairs need to be changed in the BR system.  Unlimited needs to go.

Overall, I like the BR.  I think it needs to be fleshed out a bit more.  Stop whining about it breaking the old "meta' and go out of your comfort zone a bit.  

---------

A wild thought that just popped into my head......lets assume that we merge the servers and allow the clans to set the timers.  If a clan chooses an "off peak" time, for example US time zone port on Haiti....the more "off peak" the timer is, the less OR more BR is required to hold that port in a PB.  OR a clan can determine the BR of a port through maintenance costs.  Carta could be a max BR (6800?) port, but it'll cost 1mil in maintenance a day.  
 

Edited by Christendom
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42 minutes ago, Christendom said:

 

I'm just a grunt in the REDS clan so I wasn't privy to all the details, but I've commanded enough fights to get the jist of what their game plan was.  Use the 3 princes to either gain a circle OR split the forces enough so our larger/beefier force can make it to another circle and brawl it out.  Of course battle plans never go as intended and we just played tag with the swedes for 20mins and we never bothered to go to a circle.  Obviously the fight could of been won and I don't think Rediii didn't anything tactically brilliant to win it for his side, but he didn't really need to either.  This is where the advantage favors the defenders the most with this system.  Hold 2/3 circles and kite with faster ships.  Attackers move in, defenders go to a new circle.  Can't sink what you can't catch.  Especially if they can repair masts every 10mins.

I'm going to assume the BR in PBs is intended to do a couple of things.
- make the PBs more accessible on the clan level vs the national level.  Aka smaller clans have a shot.
- make PBs more diverse and perhaps more "historically" accurate
- pave the way to more of a clan oriented game.  

I think the BR has promise, perhaps it needs to be fleshed out more until a new "meta" is introduced.  I'm not sure the 3 circle style of map is the best choice for BR battles though.  A couple suggestions or thoughts I've been thinking on. 

- Maybe Make a minimum number of ship type for each style of battle.  3800 (5 4th rates) 5100 (5 lineships)  6800 (10 1st rates)...something like that.  
- BR of some ports absolutely needs to be adjusted.  3800 in a shallow port is absurd.  Especially when the attacker can't sail in anything other than shallow boats.
- Make a couple different new PB style maps or Bring back the old style for 1 port or 2.  Some variation might not be bad.  
- Maybe more than 25 spots in a PB?  Could you imagine a 40v40 shallow melee....
- Repairs need to be changed in the BR system.  Unlimited needs to go.

Overall, I like the BR.  I think it needs to be fleshed out a bit more.  Stop whining about it breaking the old "meta' and go out of your comfort zone a bit.  

 

I wonder - Christendom, would you say going to a 1 Circle PB style again would be better for this type of fighting, or do you think it's too early to tell? Personally A one Circle system would force both sides to confront each other...but would that disrupt the balance yet again?

One thing I have been thinking about is that with BR limits and people kiting in smaller ships, maybe it's time to consider changing the wood types on ships too? Do you think if the Russians had fir or teak bucs/wasas...would it have made a difference?

I agree on the unlimited repairs, I think it's time we go back to limited. I also agree as i said previously that possibly we do need to add some ship restrictions or requirements to each of the Port Battle BR limits so give some equation to "fair fighting."

I still think an entire Ship stat/Br balance adjustment is in order and eagerly await the hotfix.

Edited by Teutonic

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How it looks like:

Hey lets do a fun portbattle, everyone just brings a ship he likes and then we get a nice fight.

How it really is:

If you dont bring that exact ship to get the most out of your BR limit then you almost autolose.

 

Thats my impression at least after 2 PBs

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Hello Dear Developers,

first of all I want to thank my clan mates Anolytic and Christendom for the very good analysing performance of the new port battle system. I think they remarked the important issues which have to be improved in my view. The only thing I want to add is that the brave port battle captains are still not rewarded for their efforts. Especially taking the risk of loosing premium ships with rare upgrades. So I think you should bring some nice rewards for them: ship chest, boost on pvp marks etc. Moreover I want to emphasize that I like the idea of bringing more different ships into a port battle, the challenge is now to do the "fine tuning work" for you. :D

Cheers Donjuan

Edited by Donjuan Dimarco
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guys, plz take off ur nation glases!

fact:

3 portbattles - none of them was fun!

 

the current PB BR System is bad. Change the circlecap to BR not the amount of ships or even better, bring back the system where in 25vs25 fights fun was guaranteed

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