How do you know which sails are included in "JIB_SAIL" and "MAIN_SAIL"?

[Niels Terkildsen]

How do you know which sails are included in "JIB_SAIL" and "MAIN_SAIL", when using Extra Staysails or Studding Sails for example?

I know what a jib is, but the question is whether spankers and gaff sails (especially relevant for fore-and-aft-riggers) are included in this, or whether these are considered "main sails".

What decides the status of sails?

 

For example, are only the sails affected by T considered "jib sails", or does that not apply for fore-and-aft-riggers, or is there some other rule to know which sails are affected? Etc. etc.

[jodgi]

I thought it was like you already said: simply press "T", observe which sails are taken away and those are your jib class sails. The rest are mainsail class.

[Barberouge]

On 30/10/2017 at 5:55 PM, Niels Terkildsen said:

I know what a jib is, but the question is whether spankers and gaff sails (especially relevant for fore-and-aft-riggers) are included in this, or whether these are considered "main sails".

Those are part of a specific third category.

[The Geth]

4 hours ago, jodgi said:

I thought it was like you already said: simply press "T", observe which sails are taken away and those are your jib class sails. The rest are mainsail class.

I'd be inclined to go with this definition, though it would be great if a dev could provide clarification. I've always been told that increasing the "jib" characteristic improves your top speed while sailing upwind (basically making your ship more triangle-rigged), while improving mainsails does the same for leeward sailing.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, The Geth said:

I'd be inclined to go with this definition, though it would be great if a dev could provide clarification. I've always been told that increasing the "jib" characteristic improves your top speed while sailing upwind (basically making your ship more triangle-rigged), while improving mainsails does the same for leeward sailing.

Yes, you are correct. The jib sails help you sailing up wind, and the main sails help while sailing with the wind.

You can test this in battle pretty easily. Point your ship at a certain course (maybe start with 45 degrees off the wind) and depower (press T). You will see the speed from only the mainsails. Then, bring the jibs back up, and turn your main sails so the wind is passing through them without providing any force. You will then see the speed from only the jib sails.

When you are going directly with the wind, you can depower and see almost no speed change. Also, when you are going up wind (something like 30 degrees off the wind) you will notice that the wind is passing through your main sails without providing much force, while your jibs are doing all the work.
 

There is a balance between the two, so choosing when you want to use the force bonus mods takes some thought. 

[Norfolk nChance]

1 hour ago, EliteDelta said:

Yes, you are correct. The jib sails help you sailing up wind, and the main sails help while sailing with the wind.

You can test this in battle pretty easily. Point your ship at a certain course (maybe start with 45 degrees off the wind) and depower (press T). You will see the speed from only the mainsails. Then, bring the jibs back up, and turn your main sails so the wind is passing through them without providing any force. You will then see the speed from only the jib sails.

When you are going directly with the wind, you can depower and see almost no speed change. Also, when you are going up wind (something like 30 degrees off the wind) you will notice that the wind is passing through your main sails without providing much force, while your jibs are doing all the work.
 

There is a balance between the two, so choosing when you want to use the force bonus mods takes some thought. 

 

@EliteDelta

So, have a quick look at this. I’ve a fairly quick Endymion. Without any Skill knowledge Max Speed 14.76 and a Turn Rate 2.93. This is with longs and repairs etc.

If I add “A Treatise on Staysails Trim…” 

Main Sail Force Bonus of -8%

JIB Sail Force Bonus of +8%

Question: - Nothing in my Combat Specs changed. Still 14.76/2.93. I would have thought I’d get a drop in max speed?

 

My second slot I then added “Optimized Ballast…”

Max Roll Angel -4%

Max Speed +1%

 My new Speed increases to 14.90 and TurnR remains the same. I assume the negative Max Roll number will lift my sides or expose my keel to LEAK shots here?

Also, even with the TurnR remaining at 2.93 do I turn quicker due to the higher speed kicker?

Second Question: - Is there any good combos to use with Stays or Studding Sails that give you a SYNERGY boost?

 

Norfolk.

 

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, Norfolk nChance said:

 

@EliteDelta

So, have a quick look at this. I’ve a fairly quick Endymion. Without any Skill knowledge Max Speed 14.76 and a Turn Rate 2.93. This is with longs and repairs etc.

If I add “A Treatise on Staysails Trim…” 

Main Sail Force Bonus of -8%

JIB Sail Force Bonus of +8%

Question: - Nothing in my Combat Specs changed. Still 14.76/2.93. I would have thought I’d get a drop in max speed?

 

My second slot I then added “Optimized Ballast…”

Max Roll Angel -4%

Max Speed +1%

 My new Speed increases to 14.90 and TurnR remains the same. I assume the negative Max Roll number will lift my sides or expose my keel to LEAK shots here?

Also, even with the TurnR remaining at 2.93 do I turn quicker due to the higher speed kicker?

Second Question: - Is there any good combos to use with Stays or Studding Sails that give you a SYNERGY boost?

 

Norfolk.

 

Okay, ill go one at a time.

"Question: - Nothing in my Combat Specs changed. Still 14.76/2.93. I would have thought I’d get a drop in max speed?"

The way I think about this is that the speed shown in port is your "base speed", and is used by your sailing profile to determine how fast you go at different angles. However, when you add a force mod, it changes your sailing profile. So lets say before you add staysails you would go 100% of your speed at 135 degrees from the wind. After you add staysails, you only go 95% of your base speed at that angle (just examples, i'm not sure exactly how much it would change without testing it). It is possible that by adding the staysails trim there will be no angle that gives 100% of your base speed. The opposite would happen with some mainsail bonuses. It will make your up wind profile worse, but could give 105% or 110%  of the base speed at certain downwind angles.

"My new Speed increases to 14.90 and TurnR remains the same. I assume the negative Max Roll number will lift my sides or expose my keel to LEAK shots here?"

I believe the negative number means you have less heel, meaning less of your side being exposed most of the time, leading to less leaks. 

"Second Question: - Is there any good combos to use with Stays or Studding Sails that give you a SYNERGY boost?"

Not that I have found. Typically combining a jib boost with a mainsail boost mod will lead to them cancelling each other out.  This means you get little or no bonus, possible negatives (such as more crew on sailing), and you are using up multiple skillbook or permanent module spots. 

 

Edited October 31, 2017 by Guest

[The Geth]

11 minutes ago, Norfolk nChance said:

I assume the negative Max Roll number will lift my sides or expose my keel to LEAK shots here?

Actually, negative roll angle causes your ship to roll less, as far as I can tell. Pretty sure it's a good thing; easier to aim guns while underway, harder to be holed below the waterline, etc. Additional Ballast is an upgrade that purely trades speed for a decreased roll angle, for instance.

[Niels Terkildsen]

6 hours ago, EliteDelta said:

Yes, you are correct. The jib sails help you sailing up wind, and the main sails help while sailing with the wind.

You can test this in battle pretty easily. Point your ship at a certain course (maybe start with 45 degrees off the wind) and depower (press T). You will see the speed from only the mainsails. Then, bring the jibs back up, and turn your main sails so the wind is passing through them without providing any force. You will then see the speed from only the jib sails.

When you are going directly with the wind, you can depower and see almost no speed change. Also, when you are going up wind (something like 30 degrees off the wind) you will notice that the wind is passing through your main sails without providing much force, while your jibs are doing all the work.
 

There is a balance between the two, so choosing when you want to use the force bonus mods takes some thought. 

I'm aware what T does, and also what the strengths and weaknesses of jibs and staysails are. It's all quite plain for square rigged ships (except perhaps the question of the spanker).

But if you consider a fore-and-aft rigged ship, the amount of sail aside from jibs that could act positively in terms of upwind speed begs the question whether these (gaff sails especially) are included in one category or the other.

For example, the Pickle:

 

It has two small jibs, a forecourse and fore topsail, and two gaff sails (with a mizzen gaff topsail). The jibs should obviously be counted as JIB_SAIL, and the forecourse and fore topsail should be MAIN_SAIL, but what about the gaff sails? These are also useful for sailing upwind, and the combined force on them might outweigh the force on the two small jibs, so it's quite important to know whether they're counted as MAIN or JIB. I'm suspecting they're counted as MAIN, and that would mean using Studding Sails might actually increase speed at all points of sailing (except perhaps extremely close hauled).

Edited October 31, 2017 by Niels Terkildsen
Holy **** it comes back to me how terrible this forum is for using images and spoilers

[jodgi]

52 minutes ago, Niels Terkildsen said:

I'm suspecting they're counted as MAIN, and that would mean using Studding Sails might actually increase speed at all points of sailing (except perhaps extremely close hauled).

I'm guessing, just like you, but consider that things are often kept simple for coding, usage and balancing purposes. To have mainsail upgrades that boost upwind performance would, to some extent, defeat the intended purpose of the upgrades. This is why I guess only "T" sails get a boost from jib bonus or upwind bonus even if gaff sails would help upwind performance in the real world. Besides, even if studded gaff sails boost upwind performance maybe the nerf to the "T" sails takes away from upwind performance enough for the sum of boost to end up negative <draws breath>. You know, like one step forward, two steps back.

This is easy to test if you have perks on a pickle. I don't.

Quote

Holy **** it comes back to me how terrible this forum is for using images and spoilers

Ooof, yes! Most of the new things are making it better. But to pull out the option to go pure text with tags and forcing you to wrestle with a wysiwyg editor that does whatever it likes is frustrating. It would be almost impossible for me to do a large post like the old ship previews or the spoiler packed original speed topic.

Edited October 31, 2017 by jodgi

[Rigs]

11 hours ago, EliteDelta said:

Okay, ill go one at a time.

"Question: - Nothing in my Combat Specs changed. Still 14.76/2.93. I would have thought I’d get a drop in max speed?"

The way I think about this is that the speed shown in port is your "base speed", and is used by your sailing profile to determine how fast you go at different angles. However, when you add a force mod, it changes your sailing profile. So lets say before you add staysails you would go 100% of your speed at 135 degrees from the wind. After you add staysails, you only go 95% of your base speed at that angle (just examples, i'm not sure exactly how much it would change without testing it). It is possible that by adding the staysails trim there will be no angle that gives 100% of your base speed. The opposite would happen with some mainsail bonuses. It will make your up wind profile worse, but could give 105% or 110%  of the base speed at certain downwind angles.

"My new Speed increases to 14.90 and TurnR remains the same. I assume the negative Max Roll number will lift my sides or expose my keel to LEAK shots here?"

I believe the negative number means you have less heel, meaning less of your side being exposed most of the time, leading to less leaks. 

"Second Question: - Is there any good combos to use with Stays or Studding Sails that give you a SYNERGY boost?"

Not that I have found. Typically combining a jib boost with a mainsail boost mod will lead to them cancelling each other out.  This means you get little or no bonus, possible negatives (such as more crew on sailing), and you are using up multiple skillbook or permanent module spots. 

 

The way I see the sail force mods, they simply modify your ship sailing profile either upwind or downwind based on the (jib or main sails force multiplier mods used).

It would be nice to have these sail force mods somehow tied into a build editor with the sailing profile chart so you can actually see  the speed change buff/debuff at different points of sail. 

Anyhow, the way I see it coded in game, just add the speed % increase to those respective points of sail. I think the sail force mods are calculated as a flat percentage to those points of sail.

Example below.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Rigs

[Niels Terkildsen]

I took the Pickle out for testing now. By no means completely accurate, and I'm not sure whether this can help solve my question:

It seems clear though, that the benefit to upwind performance is significantly greater with Extra Staysails than the benefit to downwind performance is with Studding Sails.

[jodgi]

1 hour ago, Niels Terkildsen said:

the benefit to upwind performance is significantly greater with Extra Staysails than the benefit to downwind performance is with Studding Sails.

At least on the Pickle. It plays out differently on a ship like Endymion.

[Rigs]

On 10/31/2017 at 12:59 PM, Niels Terkildsen said:

I took the Pickle out for testing now. By no means completely accurate, and I'm not sure whether this can help solve my question:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

It seems clear though, that the benefit to upwind performance is significantly greater with Extra Staysails than the benefit to downwind performance is with Studding Sails.

Depends on the ship sailing profile. You want to build on strengths.

In the picture below there are 3 ships with their 3 sailing profiles. What sail force modifiers would you use for each?

There is already a tool for that, you don't have to physically sail each ship to be able to tell.

Have a look at the link below. I heard that guy is pretty smart. 

 

Edited November 1, 2017 by Rigs

[Hodo]

With a Pickle or even the Prince, which are both "Hermaphrodite" rig designs.  You have to factor in that there main sails are actually just the square sails on the ship.  All of the other sails are technically stays or jib sails.  

The Lynx and the Privateer share the same issue.  But to a much bigger degree as they are true fore-aft rigged ships.