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slik

Weekend 6 - new round of testing

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I got a question, why do we have 1 by 1 linear unlocking ships? Wouldn't it be better to make ships unlocking of choice by class? Lets say I am using Surprise and I don't wanna sail other four or five 5th rates, but I want to go next to Trincomalee which is also a 5th rate. This rule basically forces us to use every possible ship in the game while we don't like some ships or would rather skip some. 

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6 hours ago, Fellvred said:

It's certainly a step in the right direction although obviously the guns available for each ship might need to be balanced. With a fully upgraded Cerb with 32lb nades vs 4lbers it feels a bit like I've unlocked god mode :).

This ^^^

You can still have the grind for xp slots, officers, crew etc but the basic guns should be balanced by ship class. I can see unrated ships starting with 4 lb guns but frigates?

@jodgi @sterner Even in your WOT examples the basic guns are not the lowest level in tier 1 !!  Your tier 9 AMX did not start out with a 20mm cannon did it?

The ships in WoWs start out stock with historical armaments for the most part. Why not do it like NA OW - start out in historic caliber but with mediums and unlock longs and carros. 

Also what about double shot? You can have that be an unlock as well. 

I do like the crew additions that is a nice feature. 

 

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14 hours ago, sterner said:

To open 9th level  you need around 200K XP. Average XP per battle 800 with premium - 250 battles. Average battle 8m, 2000m = 33 hours. 

Average XP in legends 1000, average battle 30m, 26K till constituon, 26 battles, 13 hours.

I believe that there is huge difference.

LOL...You must play a Different Naval Legends than we do. "13 hours for a Connie"....ROFL

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3 minutes ago, Peter Goldman said:

13h for Connie lol. More likely 30h if not more and skipping all upgrade and improvements on ships. Starting on each ship with 4pd is most likely Halloween joke, I hope.

You do see the word Staff under his name.  He talking about going from a trinc to a Connie.  If i had real carros and didn't lose all my crew over 1 match this could be done.

I not going to play a trinc when I have to play 1 hour for a match and fire 500 shots with 9pd and 6pd guns at point blank range for only 1/2 to pen.  Just to get 300 xp the most I have made in one match was 1300 (Still took an hour), I won because all the AI boats where lay'ed up on the beach and could not hit me.  I am a Captain so i get 3 officers that helps (NOT).

If AI were not the best shots in the world and I didn't have to repair my ruder on average of 7 times a game, also if I could keep my crew up every match all 5 missions I have played in a trinc I had under 100 crew at end of fight. 

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1 minute ago, Peter Goldman said:

I wonder if you start on Santissima Trinidad with all 4pd cannons.

AS I said the Trinc is Bad having to Start with 9s and 6s.  If i go to lower boats to play I will crush everyone. Guess that is what I must do if I want to enjoy my time playing.  I feel for the people that have to play me loading in lol. 

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We will continue to tune the system. But for example, I played on cerb with 4pd. It is well playable against of brigs, mercuries and snows, it is playable against of cerb and renomee, of course, it requires to be in parallel and closer than 150m. Any gun in the game can penetrate everything within 100m. I have got second level after 3 battles... around an hour (in average anyone will be able to open next level within few hours to get comfort gameplay). We agree that bots are OP and it will be fixed, but in final game there won't be bots. Moreover balancer will be improved to consider differently basic setup and advanced setup in balance table.

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1 hour ago, sterner said:

We will continue to tune the system. But for example, I played on cerb with 4pd. It is well playable against of brigs, mercuries and snows, it is playable against of cerb and renomee, of course, it requires to be in parallel and closer than 150m. Any gun in the game can penetrate everything within 100m. I have got second level after 3 battles... around an hour (in average anyone will be able to open next level within few hours to get comfort gameplay). We agree that bots are OP and it will be fixed, but in final game there won't be bots. Moreover balancer will be improved to consider differently basic setup and advanced setup in balance table.

I played a snow with 4pd cannons against a player in l'ocean 1v1 and lasted 20-30 mins, battle ended as there was server maintenance. I wiped about 400 of his crew. The problem is that 4pd against AI works, but against players it is useless. 4pd are only good for chaining and graping.

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On 27.10.2017 at 10:11 PM, sterner said:

There is similar feeling in WOT when you buy a tank and enter into first battle with basic setup and downgraded crew. But when you open or buy top equipment, train 100% crew, then you become happy. Balancer must find good opponents for your basic setup and sometimes provide higher level enemies to motivate to pay.

Stock Syndrome is a serious issue imo. I stopped caring about unlocking new tanks/planes in War Thunder because I won't play them anyway (unless they're low rank). Playing without unlocked gear is frustrating and 0 fun. On the other hand, grinding for alternative instead of better gear is fine imo, e.g. bonus to x, malus to y (NOT SOMETHING LIKE MAINTENANCE FEE).

Edited by Ephant

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10 hours ago, Ephant said:

Playing without unlocked gear is frustrating and 0 fun.

Very true. I'm doing the Snow with 4lbs now.

In tanks I never did any stock grind but used prem tanks and a little freexp unlock to jump to top gun and engine. The next tier tanks I ground through all the way, tho, did all the grinding and only used cash to avoid stock.

I saw the statistics on this too, but don't remember the exact figure, think along the lines of 80% of players using cash to skip stock grinds in some way.

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We just had an issue where every ships structure couldn't be reduced unless with ramming or gunfire from fort. Players and NPC ships had this issue in both teams.

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I've never been a fan of systems like the new gun progression. You basically limit the fun people have in battles to make them pay. While I get the point that a game like Legends has to generate money in order to be sustained, I'd also like to point out that you need players as well. So you might want to be careful with introducing too many limiting factors that potentially prevent people from actually playing Legends. There's already a higher threshold to overcome for new players than there is in comparable games. They have to learn how combat and sailing works, they need patience for the rather slow and long battles and they need an interest in the Age of Sail to start with. Sadly sailing ships aren't as appealing as tanks or planes for a great amount of people.

If you really want to keep the gun progression I'd prefer something like @DeRuyter suggested: Starting with the heaviest (or maybe one weight class below) mediums availabe for the particular ship and then providing longs and carronades as unlocks. This way you'd still have the feeling of progression and would prevent the battles from being perceived as painful obstacle.

Personally I'd like to have a system that emphasises Naval Action's biggest strength which is the fun and intense combat. I'd rather face an extensive grind towards the next ship than the feeling of being forced to play some rounds without fun to get to the fun again. In my opinion players willingly pay for games they enjoy playing since they want to support both the game and the developers. If they enjoy the battles they will more likely be ready to pay for premium ships, skins, decals or whatever you want to offer in the future. They'll also pay for premium time to shorten the time they need to get to the ship they want to be in. By limiting the fun however you may force people to pay, but they won't be as happy with their purchase as they would be if they made their decision without the feeling of enforcement.

I admit that I don't have any insight in game development or data on monetisation in free to play games though. So maybe my whole approach is a bit naive.

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22 minutes ago, Jeremiah Gunsmoke said:

I've never been a fan of systems like the new gun progression. You basically limit the fun people have in battles to make them pay. While I get the point that a game like Legends has to generate money in order to be sustained, I'd also like to point out that you need players as well. So you might want to be careful with introducing too many limiting factors that potentially prevent people from actually playing Legends. There's already a higher threshold to overcome for new players than there is in comparable games. They have to learn how combat and sailing works, they need patience for the rather slow and long battles and they need an interest in the Age of Sail to start with. Sadly sailing ships aren't as appealing as tanks or planes for a great amount of people.

If you really want to keep the gun progression I'd prefer something like @DeRuyter suggested: Starting with the heaviest (or maybe one weight class below) mediums availabe for the particular ship and then providing longs and carronades as unlocks. This way you'd still have the feeling of progression and would prevent the battles from being perceived as painful obstacle.

Personally I'd like to have a system that emphasises Naval Action's biggest strength which is the fun and intense combat. I'd rather face an extensive grind towards the next ship than the feeling of being forced to play some rounds without fun to get to the fun again. In my opinion players willingly pay for games they enjoy playing since they want to support both the game and the developers. If they enjoy the battles they will more likely be ready to pay for premium ships, skins, decals or whatever you want to offer in the future. They'll also pay for premium time to shorten the time they need to get to the ship they want to be in. By limiting the fun however you may force people to pay, but they won't be as happy with their purchase as they would be if they made their decision without the feeling of enforcement.

I admit that I don't have any insight in game development or data on monetisation in free to play games though. So maybe my whole approach is a bit naive.

I think it all depends on how smart the balancer will be - 4lbers on a brig vs other 6th rates isn't painful at all, you might need to get a bit closer if you usually fight long range but it's fine. A frigate with 6lbers against 4th rates will be a totally different story. 

With such short fights the only meta with large battles will be getting several ships alongside another ship and blowing holes in it. A perfect rake might take out a few guns and an emergency repair but it doesn't feel that useful outside of small encounters with 2-6 ships etc. Perhaps when the alpha is opened to all we can test going back to higher rake dmg? That 6lb frigate with fast reloads might actually be a bit more useful vs 4th rates rather than just a pain to lvl up, as well as giving ppl more tactical options in battle.

edit - maybe small guns can even get a bonus to crew/gun/module dmg *if* they do penetrate?

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On 28/10/2017 at 2:35 AM, Peter Goldman said:

I got a question, why do we have 1 by 1 linear unlocking ships? Wouldn't it be better to make ships unlocking of choice by class? Lets say I am using Surprise and I don't wanna sail other four or five 5th rates, but I want to go next to Trincomalee which is also a 5th rate. This rule basically forces us to use every possible ship in the game while we don't like some ships or would rather skip some. 

This.

 

1 hour ago, Jeremiah Gunsmoke said:

I'd rather face an extensive grind towards the next ship than the feeling of being forced to play some rounds without fun to get to the fun again.

I agree with everything in your post, except, in extension of the above, I'd rather face a long grind in a small ship that I enjoy sailing to get to a bigger one that I also enjoy - rather than having a slightly shorter grind, but being forced to use ships (in a linear progression) that I don't want to sail.

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5 hours ago, Otsego said:

We just had an issue where every ships structure couldn't be reduced unless with ramming or gunfire from fort. Players and NPC ships had this issue in both teams.

Was in a Fort or tower battle I bet.  It has something to do with Capping the tower or fort  again after it has been capped already but i can't reproduce it or figure out what triggers it.

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10 hours ago, slik said:

7

Ty next question Can I assume that Officers are directly related to rank, and Rank is Ship based you have unlocked. Because I have made 40-50k xp easy this weekend So far and not gone up in rank from captain,  That I  got when I opened Trinc

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13 hours ago, JobaSet said:

Ty next question Can I assume that Officers are directly related to rank, and Rank is Ship based you have unlocked. Because I have made 40-50k xp easy this weekend So far and not gone up in rank from captain,  That I  got when I opened Trinc

Officers count is related to rank, but rank is not directly related to ships you research, it's based on XP you gain, but XP for rank is calculated in a way, so you will get ones approximately after certain ship researches. This will be described in details later.

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