Suppression and stun

[maturin]

Very true, but then there would have to be a lot of new code for only affecting part of the crew.

Mainly instead of affecting global reload or aiming abilities, certain guns could be knocked out of action for a shirt time.

All in all, I feel much more strongly about suppressing sail handlers with grape and small arms, than I do about gundeck-focused debuffs.

[BlouBulle]

I think a better idea is that each gun has moral, if a gun crew gets hit that moral drops... on a big ship a raking shot would do a lot of damage... but considering a lot of ships were beyond repair in that era and fought until they were unable to fight (usually due to listing to the side) I really don't think even this would be realistic. Sail ship combat was hard and tough, I don't think we need suppression on top of a raking shot killing half the crew... 

[Destraex]

Jack Aubry would require his crew to "hold" fire while manoeuvring for the maximum effect from that all important first broadside - why not us?

 

Imagine two first rates dancing for the best first shot - closer, closer, closer - and all hell breaks loose!

 

The ghosts of the Glorious First of June would be proud!

Yeah imagine both ships getting stunned at once. The suspense to see whos crew recovers from stun lock would be amazing "sarcasm"

 

I wonder whether all three gun decks in a first rate would be affected by a rake from the stern.

 

I would be happy to try this mechanic but fear it would be a waste of resources. At least there should be a chance of not getting stunned if this is the case. 

After a while it would get tiring being stun locked after every broadside. Considering each side would cop it with every response and reply. People WILL be raging.

[akd]

"Stunning" (nonsense term and "stun lock" even more so; would be better described as "shock") should not be tied to angle of fire or type of shot, but to crew loss. If a ship suffers a broadside that kills X% of crew in less than X seconds, it should suffer a morale hit that could have all sorts of effects, including a period of shock followed by recovery. What type of shot does the killing and what angle it comes from is irrelevant (although obviously raking with grape is the most likely to kill large numbers of crew).

As BlouBulle points out, it would probably be best to track crew loss for individual guns and apply morale effects on gunnery on a per gun basis, but I'm not sure if the game is really tracking where in the ship crew are hit.

But the game needs a morale system for various aspects of gameplay and this should just be integrated into that system.

[Destraex]

Morale I can understand to an extend. But for a three decker where no deck can see the other cowering it's hard. You essentially have 4 decks firing on a first rate. Four decks that are fairly well disconnected from each other. Morale is therefore a complicated thing. That is why an entire ship stopping in shock seems a little over the top for me.

 

It's confusing, it's smokey and you just keep firing even with people dying which you expect. These are not concentrated blows they are broadsides. It's random.

The only thing which may stop an entire 1st rate for a bit is concentrated stern fire as another first rate goes past firing at all levels as she bears meaning it's like sustained fire.

[Chromey]

stick true to realism else ye threaten to loose sailors to gameyness.

[maturin]

stick true to realism else ye threaten to loose sailors to gameyness.

I swear, yall don't read threads at all.

If a ship suffers a broadside that kills X% of crew in less than X seconds, it should suffer a morale hit that could have all sorts of effects, including a period of shock followed by recovery. What type of shot does the killing and what angle it comes from is irrelevant (although obviously raking with grape is the most likely to kill large numbers of crew).

For gundeck effects you have a good point.

But for sail trimmers, a hail of grape is going to make people run for cover even if no one gets hit. It's going to break up the orderly line of men that you need hauling on the braces in unison.

[BrutishVulgarian]

I would say, if your sails get hit, that stuns your sail turning, not your gunnery and visa versa, but I assumed Maturin meant that already. In a multi decked ship, damage to a deck above or below shouldn't stun seamen who couldn't see the carnage, damage below the waterline wouldn't effect anyone, except maybe the carpenters.

But a sudden blast of splinters and body parts would stun anybody, even the stalwart men of the 19th century.

[Flip]

But a sudden blast of splinters and body parts would stun anybody, even the stalwart men of the 19th century.

 

This is where computers suck at simulating variables. Look at the World Wars, some succumb to shock when they see a man get blown up, others ignore it completely. How do we know what that gunner is thinking? It's all  a bit meta

[nebsif]

Bumpity! Make it depend where and with what you got hit (after the new damage system is in). it shouldnt have much/any effect on 1st rates, but u cant expect the same combat resilience from a merchant ship *crew*.

+ever heard of (gamey) deminishing returns? Say the realization that you either fight or die - each stun would decrease the next stun's duration by X%. gg

Gamey/unrealistic = My surprise eating a full victory's broadside, continuing to reload as if nothing happened, returning fire and then casually switching to survival.

[Galileus]

I dislike it a lot, as it is presented.

 

In general, stun effect in game dev are BAD. Simply that - bad. It takes you out of the game, forces to wait an arbitrary period before you can do something you wanted to and generally decrease the quality of gameplay. What stuns REALLY mean (in REALITY) is not "your crew has been shocked!" but "Player 1, please wait 10 seconds before resuming your game, ads may or may not be broadcasted". Stun IS bad.

 

That being said, inputting stun mechanics into your game requires a lot of thought, just to reduce the cases of players watching their screen blindly waiting for the ad to end. It needs to be situational minimum, it needs to be well justified and it needs to be well visualized. Then, and ONLY then you can remove the bland ad watching with actual immersion in the situation.

 

Needless to say "stun after each shot" or even "stun after a rake shot" OR EVEN "stun after a grape rake shot" are not really fulfilling these needs. And with that 60% own damage output? Enough situations out there to make it each shot, could be as well arbitrary "this guy is stronger, so he get's to stun you all the time! YAY GAME FUN!". Terrible. No. NO!

 

So first and foremost, there are two problems to address:

 

1. How to limit the stun effect to a certain maximum?

- Percentage based is boring and not fun, but works.

- Ship size CANNOT be as wildly important in it as propsed - otherwise it makes for very bad experience at worthwile stun duration / strength effect; and makes it worthless to care about stun with variables balanced to negate "stronk ship stun much" scenario.

- Need to find an appropriate situation for inducing stun-like effects with both logical explanation and a cue for visualization.

- Need to balance stun effects to be worthwhile BUT situational - as in, if you're close to or in position to have a chance at inducing stun effect, it's better to try it out rather than go with whatever you were doing. Maneuvering into stun shots from OOP cannot be worthwhile. Tactics must gain from usage of stun effect, tactics need to suffer from depending on stun effect.

- Actually, introducing more of stun limits the stun. If stun would be a more versatile mechanic, not limited to shooting only, it can be reduced in shooting itself and still hold the candle - and feel more vibrant and a part of greater mechanism than "a magic spell" it is proposed as as of now. Yes, a magic spell - because realism be damned, games do it as magic spells too. If you were to be stunned on impact (ramming? possibly stunning rammer even more than the rammed, with good proportions of both ships), an explosion nearby or on your ship, a lightning striking nearby (can't imagine an effect like that to be happening too often, like 1/100 players experiencing it, good opportunity is what I call it)

 

2. How to properly visualize the effect?

- It's all about the crew. Your crew MUST react to the situation that caused stun, or else the whole thing backs down to your old, hated "you're stunned: 8.23s and counting down" message. Good visualization would be one that let's you understand the mess you're in and see at what point you recover from stun without ANY UI help.

- Voice cues could play a big role in the whole thing. After loosing enough percentage of mid-ship sailors (gunners) to a grape shot, a few commands and questions screamed by your crew would amount to insane immersive values. "Who's on the guns!?", "Man the cannons! MAN THE CANNONS!", "Get back on your stations!" and so on.

- Proper animations of either men being stunned and falling down or running through the decs, with a figure(s) of officers screaming and pointing at stuff.

 

 

 

With these not taken into consideration and not realized at least in some extent, I would not recommend going with any stuns. They are as game'y as mechanics get (in a bad way), they do not offer too much of a tactical consideration (being either random or a stationary buff, or a position you get to, or a "you dead" prompt) and worst of all they are redundant to crew loss and morale mechanic. They offer short bursts of what crew management does, just doing it worse and in less interesting and meaningful way. As far as stun is concerned, I'm much more excited with what can be done AROUND it than what can be done WITH it.

[nebsif]

^ great post O.O

[Le Hollandais Violent]

I think, if carefully implemented (in a totally different way that OP suggests) this could add a little incertainty in a fun way. I can imagine that a grapeshot broadside hitting a deck at the right moment could potentially shock the cannon crews, but in what extent is the question. I can't raise the dead and ask them about what was really happening during battle, but i think sailors were well aware that if they let fear take over they were pretty much f****d.