Nerf or Re-balance the Wasa

[Teutonic]

I have yet to see a picture of a guy in a 4th rate beat a Wasa.

I just see the stats and have seen all the screenshots and very prominant player opinions and they all have said the same thing, the Wasa is broken.

I have offered ways for the Wasa to be more balanced and still keep its strengths, but it is clear that the Wasa needs a change....or the other 4ths do

Edited October 23, 2017 by Teutonic

[Slim McSauce]

51 minutes ago, Malachy said:

The wasa can't bounce shots at all. Every shot from pretty much any angle hits home. You can angle a Connie to bounce entire broadsides from the wasa. That's probably the wasa biggest weakness. Also the wasas chasers are highly inaccurate and have a huge spread on them. 

No fir/fir ship will bounce shots well. Yes connie has slightly better armor thickness but the Wasa has a class over on the main deck and 2 classes over on the 2nd, making the ability to dish out damage/not take damage roughly equal with no clear winner. Both ships are flat on the sides and chaser accuracy is the same.

51 minutes ago, Malachy said:

My opinion of the wasa is the same as my opinion of the surprise. It's a great forgiving, entry level ship for pvp but not something you will see top tier pvpers use much. I do see lots and lots of noobs and low skillled pvpers in wasa. Most of the skilled pvpers use pirate frigate over the surprise. There are always exceptions of course like liquicity and Werwolf in surprises. 

The surp is forgiving in sailing but not in combat. The Pfrig is a bit less forgiving in sailing but a beast in combat. But you HAVE to commit with the pfrig because you have no stern guns to get away with. You have to fight it out with a pfrig before you're able gain separation to ride out at a good angle, also with a 12 knt base speed you won't be outrunning anything build for speed.

The Wasa however packs more guns on the back than it does most ships carry on the front, and has enough tank, speed and profile to carry it out whenever things go bad making it much more forgiving than either Surp or Pfrig. These ships trade something for something else while the Wasa seems to get tons of advantage for no negative trade off which is why the Wasa OP and should be nerfed

 

Edited October 23, 2017 by Slim Jimmerson

[Malachy]

1 hour ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

No fir/fir ship will bounce shots well. Yes connie has slightly better armor thickness but the Wasa has a class over on the main deck and 2 classes over on the 2nd, making the ability to dish out damage/not take damage roughly equal with no clear winner. Both ships are flat on the sides and chaser accuracy is the same.

The surp is forgiving in sailing but not in combat. The Pfrig is a bit less forgiving in sailing but a beast in combat. But you HAVE to commit with the pfrig because you have no stern guns to get away with. You have to fight it out with a pfrig before you're able gain separation to ride out at a good angle, also with a 12 knt base speed you won't be outrunning anything build for speed.

The Wasa however packs more guns on the back than it does most ships carry on the front, and has enough tank, speed and profile to carry it out whenever things go bad making it much more forgiving than either Surp or Pfrig. These ships trade something for something else while the Wasa seems to get tons of advantage for no negative trade off which is why the Wasa OP and should be nerfed

 

Chaser accuracy is not the same, fire both front chasers on the Connie, both will hit. Fire the wasa chasers and you will be lucky if one hits. Firing them single fire to get them all to hit is doable (but their dispersion is much worse than the Connie) but you will lose a lot of speed making corrections in order to try to get them to hit. As a chase ship, the Connie is hands down superior. 

You don't need to commit with pirate frigates either. Every single one I've owned does 15 knots at one point or another depending on mods, and you merely have to land a broadside of chain to walk away, most times not even that. 

Also, the Connie is one of the few ships where a fir build will allow you to bounce shots using the hull profile. Using a tankier build merely makes this better. The bellona is very similar in this. The wasa however does not compare to either. Even the Agamemnon bounces fire better. Yes, you can tank out a wasa but it's severely lacking in defensive capabilities compared to the Connie and Aggie. 

Also with those heavy guns a similarly built Connie will be considerably faster than the wasa assuming both ships are carrying the same repairs. Works out to almost a knot FYI. 

Would I like to see the Connie get more maneuverability? Sure. Make it on par with the trinc imo. Do something similar with the Agamemnon. Other than that, I'm pretty happy with the 4ths as they are. All of them.

[Slim McSauce]

1 hour ago, Malachy said:

Chaser accuracy is not the same, fire both front chasers on the Connie, both will hit. Fire the wasa chasers and you will be lucky if one hits. Firing them single fire to get them all to hit is doable (but their dispersion is much worse than the Connie) but you will lose a lot of speed making corrections in order to try to get them to hit. As a chase ship, the Connie is hands down superior. 

I have a hard time believing the Wasa has worse modeled accuracy on chasers when all other ships have the same.

1 hour ago, Malachy said:

You don't need to commit with pirate frigates either. Every single one I've owned does 15 knots at one point or another depending on mods, and you merely have to land a broadside of chain to walk away, most times not even that. 

So compared to the Wasa all you need to do is run away since its that easy with a 12 knt ship with no back guns.

1 hour ago, Malachy said:

 

Also, the Connie is one of the few ships where a fir build will allow you to bounce shots using the hull profile. Using a tankier build merely makes this better. The bellona is very similar in this. The wasa however does not compare to either. Even the Agamemnon bounces fire better. Yes, you can tank out a wasa but it's severely lacking in defensive capabilities compared to the Connie and Aggie. 

The hull profile is similar, both ships hardly have any bell curve. Agga can bounce shots better than Wasa with its curve but the Aga is also .3knts slower, and -500 hull HP with worse turning than the wasa. Of course much less firepower too. That's definitely not balanced.

1 hour ago, Malachy said:

 

Also with those heavy guns a similarly built Connie will be considerably faster than the wasa assuming both ships are carrying the same repairs. Works out to almost a knot FYI. 

Would I like to see the Connie get more maneuverability? Sure. Make it on par with the trinc imo. Do something similar with the Agamemnon. Other than that, I'm pretty happy with the 4ths as they are. All of them.

But you won't catch a wasa in a connie. You said yourself you can make a Pfrig 15knts so a Wasa/connie would be easy. 1v1 15knt connie v 15knt wasa, wasa will always win with its 2-3x chasers.

Also Connie already has the same turn rate as the trinc at around 12.4-.6 depending on wood type. Same as agga. Wasa isn't too far behind with 12.46, putting it 0.03 degrees behind the aga which is negligible.

The 4th rates were pretty well balanced before the Wasa. If we buffed 4th rates to be as good as the Wasa than 4th rates in general would be wayy OP. Makes more sense to just bump the Wasa down a notch instead of throwing things off entirely by trying to balance everything around 1 ship.

Edited October 24, 2017 by Slim Jimmerson

[Malachy]

You need to go back to your stats and take a look again. A trinc can be buffed to about 3.2 turning, a Connie caps around 2.8. Agamemnon is about .2 less than the connie. 

Agamemnon does more dps than either the Connie or the wasa. 

check the chasers out for yourself, the wasa chasers are spread too wide to fire accurately without making course corrections. Course corrections lower your speed in a best point chase. Also, directly downwind, the connies profile is considerably superior. A 15 knot Connie can outsail a 15 knot surprise at that point and the wasa is no contest.  And different ships have different chaser placement. They always have. You can see this by looking at the lines that the game uses for helping you aim. See how close the connies are compared to how widely spaced the wasa ones are. I've had someone try to chase me with a fast wasa. One, it wasn't fast enough. And two, he was hitting me at about 350 meters with about one in 6 shots. When he tried to single fire them, he got a couple more hits, but lost more ground than he gained in sail damage doing it. 

the reason you can't run down a Connie with a wasa is the 32 lb guns are heavy and they draw down your speed considerably. To keep speed parity you have to undergun which gives up most of the reason to sail it. And undergunning at all will make it even easier prey for a Connie or Agamemnon. 

As to hull curve, you are wrong about the Connie. I was bouncing 42 lb cannon fire this weekend in a teak/sabicu Connie. A wasa can't do that. In fact, most of the ships lost in that battle were wasa.  We engaged 12 first rates with 3rd and 4ths for the most part. The connies all survived, the wasa were taken apart. They just couldn't stand up to first rate firepower like the Connie could. One of the oceans was capped by Vile, who was sailing a Connie. It was much easier for us to run the gauntlet in the connies than it was for the wasa boys.

you can tell how good someone is by what they think they need lol. Rear chasers are nice to have but are not necessary by any means to effectively escape. 

Its pretty evident you don't know much about any of the 4th rates from your posts, so why don't you spend some time getting to know them better then come back and chat with us? I would be happy to give you pointers for success in game if you like. I've got about 1900 hours played in a Connie, around 1000 in an Agamemnon and about 350 in the wasa so far. Of the three, the wasa is the one I like the least so far but I'm going to keep plugging for now. I've also used the other two 4ths but didn't care for either of them. 

Edited October 24, 2017 by Malachy

[Slim McSauce]

Your anecdotes mean nothing while we're looking at the stats of the ship, which show its much better than either connie or aga or inger or wappen. 

Balancing ships means each one being effective, useful, and fills a role. You don't balance all 4th rates on 1 new ship, you balance the new ship into the 4th rates so each one is competitive and has its strengths and weaknesses.

The majority of people on the forums agree the Wasa is too powerful in its current state. If you can't dispute with this on a statistical basis, then I have nothing more to discuss with you on the matter.

Edited October 24, 2017 by Slim Jimmerson

[Malachy]

5 hours ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

Your anecdotes mean nothing while we're looking at the stats of the ship, which show its much better than either connie or aga or inger or wappen. 

Balancing ships means each one being effective, useful, and fills a role. You don't balance all 4th rates on 1 new ship, you balance the new ship into the 4th rates so each one is competitive and has its strengths and weaknesses.

The majority of people on the forums agree the Wasa is too powerful in its current state. If you can't dispute with this on a statistical basis, then I have nothing more to discuss with you on the matter.

"Blah blah blah I can't find a single argument refuting you so I'll go with the dumbass majority who can't sail their way out of a wet paper bag" -slim 

I don't see a single good 4th rate captain in this entire thread save myself. When I see Vile Executioner, Blackjack Morgan, Sir Robert Calder, or any of a half dozen other 4th rate captains who have demonstrated their ability over and over again whining about the Wasa, I might lend some credence to your position. But all you've done is show how little you know about the 4th rates in general. You know enough to be dangerous to yourself and your group. That's about it.

Ive never heard anyone in either DPL or Aloha ever say: oh my gosh it's a wasa we better run!" It's more like "oh it's a wasa, anyone want it? No? Sink it."

here is your mighty wasa http://prntscr.com/h184dl

Edited October 24, 2017 by Malachy

[Rigs]

2 hours ago, Malachy said:

"Blah blah blah I can't find a single argument refuting you so I'll go with the dumbass majority who can't sail their way out of a wet paper bag" -slim 

I don't see a single good 4th rate captain in this entire thread save myself. When I see Vile Executioner, Blackjack Morgan, Sir Robert Calder, or any of a half dozen other 4th rate captains who have demonstrated their ability over and over again whining about the Wasa, I might lend some credence to your position. But all you've done is show how little you know about the 4th rates in general. You know enough to be dangerous to yourself and your group. That's about it.

Ive never heard anyone in either DPL or Aloha ever say: oh my gosh it's a wasa we better run!" It's more like "oh it's a wasa, anyone want it? No? Sink it."

here is your mighty wasa http://prntscr.com/h184dl

I wish they were more like you around here and this game would be in so much better shape.

All my respects, Sir!

[John Cavanaugh]

2 hours ago, Malachy said:

"Blah blah blah I can't find a single argument refuting you so I'll go with the dumbass majority who can't sail their way out of a wet paper bag" -slim 

Problem with was a is two things mostly - PB meta and pvp demasting meta. On the first - the superior cannon weight allows for penetration at greater range compared to aggy, and with current damage model the DPM philosophy of lighter guns only really work on mid weight ships - not so useful vs thickness build PB ship. On the second, the 32s and second deck of 24s gives much better demasting capable from longer range, basically force multiplier on already strong tactic. Can Connie out sail was a? At some points of wind. Was a still out tacks through wind do to weird physics model on the ship. Can skill Connie pilot kill was a easily? Yes. But I say this - i duel Hachi, his Connie vs my was a. Did with full guns, did with only 24s on main 12s on middle empty top deck. Hachi is much better pilot than me, but I won 3 duels and lost 0, because of Wasa better sailing even when missing masts,

[Malachy]

1 hour ago, John Cavanaugh said:

Problem with was a is two things mostly - PB meta and pvp demasting meta. On the first - the superior cannon weight allows for penetration at greater range compared to aggy, and with current damage model the DPM philosophy of lighter guns only really work on mid weight ships - not so useful vs thickness build PB ship. On the second, the 32s and second deck of 24s gives much better demasting capable from longer range, basically force multiplier on already strong tactic. Can Connie out sail was a? At some points of wind. Was a still out tacks through wind do to weird physics model on the ship. Can skill Connie pilot kill was a easily? Yes. But I say this - i duel Hachi, his Connie vs my was a. Did with full guns, did with only 24s on main 12s on middle empty top deck. Hachi is much better pilot than me, but I won 3 duels and lost 0, because of Wasa better sailing even when missing masts,

I think it all comes down to the individual player. I've beat some hell of a good players Connie vs wasa. Ive seen vile do the same. And these were fully armed wasa. It's possible you are a better wasa commander than hachi is in the Connie....I've never seen him in anything bigger than a 5th rate usually and I've known him a long time lol. 

 

They em already said there is a balance pass in the near future. Arguing about something that's probably going to change soon anyhow is kinda pointless

[Landsman]

On 23.10.2017 at 6:25 PM, Malachy said:

Most people don't master any ships. If you take the time to really learn how to sail them, you would be amazed what they can do.

Yeah, true.

 

On 23.10.2017 at 6:25 PM, Malachy said:

The stats are but a small part of their true abilities.

The stats pretty much ARE the abilities. There are a few hidden ones maybe ( like how bouncy a hull is for example ) but those are stats too.... But of course it takes a very good captain with alot of experience on the ship to get the maximum out of it - not disagreeing with this in the slightest... 

[randommexi]

I'm fine with the Wasa.  its a great ship!  better then all the other fourth rates.  no need to change it!

however, if no changes are made to the Wasa, they should change every other ship in the game.  need some balance having a one ship solution to every problem is not balance.

[Bubba Smith]

The Wasa is a wonderful ship, I recommend leaving it just the way it is. The only thing I would change is make it craftable but I can imagine many will have an issue with that. Making a superior ship available to anyone with 150 CMs is fair. Why would you want to change that? Enjoy a well designed ship, and go hunting. If it tops the 4th Rates - so be it. Get one. 

 

 

[CoyoteJohn]

Screens for lineship fleets? All Wasas

4th rate battle fleets? All Wasas

OW hunters and gankers? 90% Wasas

 

Does the "don't nerf the Wasa" crowd not see a problem with this?

 

Of course, the same can be said of the Heavy Rattlesnake in shallow water...

 

OP ships need to be nerfed and fake ships need to go. 

[Darayavahus]

Wasa is just plain & stupid OP:
- Speed
- Chasers & Cannon Count (broadside weight)
- Crew
- Cost to acquire (just get some money/marks)

And as the pure Speed is still considered the meta, Wasa's are the meta. No one plays any other 4th Rate ship anymore - people even stopped playing Reno's or Endymion's. And it is not a solution to play Wasa - the solution is to NERF Wasa stats - preferably speed, down to 10-11 knts - this way it might use it's Chasers as an advantage/defence.

Edited October 31, 2017 by Darayavahus

[janat08]

They boosted turn rates of some of other 4th rates, are 4th rates now OP in general?