Let Agamemnon take Wasa place.

[George Washington]

Some players suggested nerfing Wasa as it is OP, and I say why not just make it a PvP Note ship and do not touch specs. It's good where it is and it's a beautiful ship. This means it does not belong in PVE content. PvE content should use all less used ships, so new guys can sail them. 

  Make Agamemnon 150 PvE Mark ship and move Wasa to a regular PvP Note shelf. After long testing we can already witness that almost no one, and I repeat no one sailing Amamemnons. They are dead or dying breed. Wasa has became a new easily acquired pvp, fleet ship, and I believe if you look from game balance point of view you can't make the best 4th rate ship PvE mark exchange. So, please let Agamemnon take Wasa place and balance the game. Let new guys sail good 4th rate , but not the best one. Don't let ships die like that, Agamemnon deserves to be a PvE starting 4th rate. You could even make Ingermanland 150 PvE 1 PvP exchange to make it somewhat easy to acquire as well. 

Thanks and please vote. 

Edited October 18, 2017 by George Washington

[Sir Texas Sir]

I don't think the Wasa is OP per say, I just think it needs a higher BR though.  What they do need to do is bring back the old stats of the Connie and Aggy and other 4th rates that where nerfed to match older ships that was in game.  If they did this and a little rebalance it would give the ships reason to use again.

Connie needs it's speed and turn rate back as it has the same speed as the Wasa

Aggy needs it's old  Tankyness returned as it has less HP and Armor than the Wase.

Ingermanland just needs some love.

I actually think the Wappen is kinda balance as is.

Lets all be honest the Wasa is a 3rd rate in a 4th rate skin so it should have a 3rd rate BR not the exact same as the other 4th rates.  It can still be a great ship for OW players but it should not be in 4th rate port battles as the king of the ship.  Yes any one can get them with CM, but really it's just not BR balanced correctly.  Remember the Wappen and even the Aggy started with higher BR''s and was basicly treated as 3rd rates, why wasn't the Wasa done the same?

[victor]

Just now, Sir Texas Sir said:

 

Connie needs it's speed and turn rate back as it has the same speed as the Wasa

 

oh yes, bring back the actual "superfrigate" of the game. It was a joy to sail in OS back in the days.

[George Washington]

9 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

I don't think the Wasa is OP per say, I just think it needs a higher BR though.  What they do need to do is bring back the old stats of the Connie and Aggy and other 4th rates that where nerfed to match older ships that was in game.  If they did this and a little rebalance it would give the ships reason to use again.

Connie needs it's speed and turn rate back as it has the same speed as the Wasa

Aggy needs it's old  Tankyness returned as it has less HP and Armor than the Wase.

Ingermanland just needs some love.

I actually think the Wappen is kinda balance as is.

Lets all be honest the Wasa is a 3rd rate in a 4th rate skin so it should have a 3rd rate BR not the exact same as the other 4th rates.  It can still be a great ship for OW players but it should not be in 4th rate port battles as the king of the ship.  Yes any one can get them with CM, but really it's just not BR balanced correctly.  Remember the Wappen and even the Aggy started with higher BR''s and was basicly treated as 3rd rates, why wasn't the Wasa done the same?

So, I feel like every time they add new ship they will need to re-balance all previous ones. Something is wrong here. Why did they nerf so much that people abandon them?

 

Edited October 18, 2017 by George Washington

[Sir Texas Sir]

1 minute ago, victor said:

oh yes, bring back the actual "superfrigate" of the game. It was a joy to sail in OS back in the days.

I use to love that ship so much back in the day.  After the wipe I got one as I hadn't used it in a long time as I had Aggy's mostly for port battles.  I got in one and started to grind on it and ti just felt wrong and broken.  I gave up on it before even getting my second slot open.    I really think this is all they need to do is rebalance the old ships to match with the Wasa.   They need to have ships with there on purpose in each class.   There is a problem when every one uses the same ship over and over as a sign there is a balance issue.

[George Washington]

3 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

I use to love that ship so much back in the day.  After the wipe I got one as I hadn't used it in a long time as I had Aggy's mostly for port battles.  I got in one and started to grind on it and ti just felt wrong and broken.  I gave up on it before even getting my second slot open.    I really think this is all they need to do is rebalance the old ships to match with the Wasa.   They need to have ships with there on purpose in each class.   There is a problem when every one uses the same ship over and over as a sign there is a balance issue.

I feel like they don't have a formula to balance ships yet. How would you balance 4th rates if they asked you? Starting from Wasa as base and moving down to Conie. I know you said boost BR and turn, but what actual values would you use to bring them back to life.

Edited October 18, 2017 by George Washington

[Batman]

4 minutes ago, George Washington said:

So, I feel like every time they add new ship they will need to re-balance all previous ones. Something is wrong here. Why did they nerf so much that people abandon them?

 

Ship balacing is done with speed and turning. And it's not working well because a few ships simply outperform the rest.

[jodgi]

8 minutes ago, George Washington said:

So, I feel like every time they add new ship they will need to re-balance all previous ones. Something is wrong here. Why did they nerf so much that people abandon them?

 

This is normal in other games as well. Besides, admin has hinted at an upcoming rebalance.

[George Washington]

1 minute ago, jodgi said:

This is normal in other games as well. Besides, admin has hinted at an upcoming rebalance.

I just hope values will be public and not a stealthy fix. 

Edited October 18, 2017 by George Washington

[GhastlyGhost]

Why only this ****** Agamemnon. All 4th rate need more love !

[Sir Texas Sir]

Lets look at these ships now.

Constitution	250	450	54	504pd/864pd	751	12.30kn	Deep	4th Rate	25
Agamemnon	250	500	64	600pd/618pd	756	12.00kn	Deep	4th Rate	25
Ingermanland	250	470	62	642pd/684pd	727	11.66kn	Deep	4th Rate	35
Wasa	250	550	64	765pd/880pd	600	12.30kn	Deep	4th Rate	Notes
Wapen von Hamburg III	250	470	68	570pd/708pd	748	11.99kn	Deep	4th Rate	25
3rd Rate	380	650	74	669pd/876pd	822	12.00kn	Deep	3rd Rate	35
Bellona	400	650	74	865pd/1072pd	928	11.70kn	Deep	3rd Rate	35

 

Ok we have the 4th rates and the 3rfds.  The Wasa has a Broad Side between the 3rd Rate and Bellona.  I honestly think the 3rd rate Br should be drop down to like 300.  The Wasa should get Br around 350.   It even has about the same amount of HP's as the 3rd Rate.  I honestly think the poll should change and lets make the 3rd rate what you buy with CM's and replace it with the Wasa in the tree of ships to be crafted. It's basically a frigate killer which what most third rate jobs was.  

We also need to address the fact every one is running around with 14+ knts Wasa's.  This should be a position for the Connie not the Wasa but they have pretty much the same speed and profile as each other so which would you take?  The ship with the most guns of course.  This is cause of the 15 knt cap is meet and than it doesn't matter that if you remove the cap and go off a percentage once the cannons are put on  the exact same build the Connie should be faster than the Wasa, but with the cap every one builds to hit it and than that is it.   

[victor]

bring connie base speed to 12.60 kn and turn rate to 2,80. That would be enough to make it better than the Wasa for some things.

As far as the agamemnon is concerned, a buff to HP and/or thickness would solve the problem (but here I have no idea about numbers, since I do not sail agas).

Edited October 18, 2017 by victor

[George Washington]

23 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Lets look at these ships now.

Constitution	250	450	54	504pd/864pd	751	12.30kn	Deep	4th Rate	25
Agamemnon	250	500	64	600pd/618pd	756	12.00kn	Deep	4th Rate	25
Ingermanland	250	470	62	642pd/684pd	727	11.66kn	Deep	4th Rate	35
Wasa	250	550	64	765pd/880pd	600	12.30kn	Deep	4th Rate	Notes
Wapen von Hamburg III	250	470	68	570pd/708pd	748	11.99kn	Deep	4th Rate	25
3rd Rate	380	650	74	669pd/876pd	822	12.00kn	Deep	3rd Rate	35
Bellona	400	650	74	865pd/1072pd	928	11.70kn	Deep	3rd Rate	35

 

Ok we have the 4th rates and the 3rfds.  The Wasa has a Broad Side between the 3rd Rate and Bellona.  I honestly think the 3rd rate Br should be drop down to like 300.  The Wasa should get Br around 350.   It even has about the same amount of HP's as the 3rd Rate.  I honestly think the poll should change and lets make the 3rd rate what you buy with CM's and replace it with the Wasa in the tree of ships to be crafted. It's basically a frigate killer which what most third rate jobs was.  

We also need to address the fact every one is running around with 14+ knts Wasa's.  This should be a position for the Connie not the Wasa but they have pretty much the same speed and profile as each other so which would you take?  The ship with the most guns of course.  This is cause of the 15 knt cap is meet and than it doesn't matter that if you remove the cap and go off a percentage once the cannons are put on  the exact same build the Connie should be faster than the Wasa, but with the cap every one builds to hit it and than that is it.   

So, we need a pre 15 knt cap line set for each ship. Pre speed cap line will reduce speed increase by 50% once it's crossed?

ex. Conie pre speed cap can start at 13.5 while wasa at 13.2, we will then add same speed mods. All of them will have -50% effect after speed pre cap line is crossed. This can result in let's say 14 knt Conie and 13.7 Wasa max speeds.

Basically, after speed threshold line any speed mod or build will be -50% effective with hard cap at 15 knt. These threshold lines can easily balance speeds on all ship rates 1-7th. 

For example, on Frigates 5th rates - Threshhold line would be set closer to 15 knt, at lets say 13.9 compared to 3rd rates - it will be set at 12.2 or so...

Will it work?

Edited October 18, 2017 by George Washington

[victor]

4 minutes ago, Peter Goldman said:

What about 5th rates that base speed is 12-12.5 knots?

First each 5th rate has a much better turn rate (let alone the Trinco that is absolutely crap and Endy that would be faster anyway) and turn rate is the key factor for stern camping bigger ships (even a connie).

second:  how many of those 5th rates require permits to build?

third: to unlock the slots of a connie you need more time than the ones of the frigates you are mentioning.

fourth: bigger ships actually sailed at higher speeds than small frigates, yet they had worse acceleration.

fifth: small frigates have usually also a better sailing profile than the connie's one.

Summarizing: i do not see a big problem in the fact that a permitted 4th rate superfrigate as the connie could have an edge on some non permitted 5th rates also on max speed.

Edited October 18, 2017 by victor

[Teutonic]

24 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Lets look at these ships now.

Constitution	250	450	54	504pd/864pd	751	12.30kn	Deep	4th Rate	25
Agamemnon	250	500	64	600pd/618pd	756	12.00kn	Deep	4th Rate	25
Ingermanland	250	470	62	642pd/684pd	727	11.66kn	Deep	4th Rate	35
Wasa	250	550	64	765pd/880pd	600	12.30kn	Deep	4th Rate	Notes
Wapen von Hamburg III	250	470	68	570pd/708pd	748	11.99kn	Deep	4th Rate	25
3rd Rate	380	650	74	669pd/876pd	822	12.00kn	Deep	3rd Rate	35
Bellona	400	650	74	865pd/1072pd	928	11.70kn	Deep	3rd Rate	35

When you look at these stats and realize how crap the ingermanland is :(.

Beside it's broadside weight, it's just outclassed by the other ships.

I like the options with the connie when you add carros - it can become a very powerful ship. But unfortunately the wasa is just such a beast with them all being the same BR.

Just for these ships I would change the br to be the following.

Connie - 250

Aggie - 270

Ingerman - 240

Wapen - 260

Wasa - 325 (or 340)

3rd - 300

Bellona - 400

But then again, a br balance needs to go across all ships. The community made BR list that liquicity posted on the tournament for EU, seems to be the generally accepted level.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Teutonic

[Lord Gud]

No ship should be obtainable with marks plain and simple it takes away content from crafters.

[George Washington]

3 minutes ago, Lord Gud said:

No ship should be obtainable with marks plain and simple it takes away content from crafters.

Not all ships, people have right to Fleet and get rewarded. Crafters make enough cash. 

Edited October 18, 2017 by George Washington

[Rigs]

Nerf it's never a good thing, it's the lazy way to artificially increase the TTK. The best way to balance things is to buff them up. Leave Wasa alone and buff the other ships to the desired level.

Make all ships craftable and notes, different strokes for different folks, and to keep the marks and ship crafting prices in check. Keep in mind that Wasa is the only affordable ship for new, single and small clans players allowing them to participate at dw port battles. The new, single and small clans players most of times cannot afford a level 3 shipyard anyhow.

 

Remember the key to success is to be more inclusive. 

[George Washington]

7 minutes ago, Rigs said:

 

Make all ships craftable and notes,

Can't do it, it will hurt the game. Less used ships should be PvE mark exchange. Always. Craftable? Sure, but Blueprints should cost 300 PvE marks for those PvE exchange ships. PvP ships should remain where they are. 

So you can go grind , get 300 pve marks and start crafting / selling. Those who do not want to buy ships from you will be able to get them for 150 pve marks with work involved. 

If I am lazy and have money I will go buy a ship from you, but if I do not have cash and have time I will grind for that same ship myself. That is balance. 

Edited October 18, 2017 by George Washington

[George Washington]

15 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

When you look at these stats and realize how crap the ingermanland is :(.

 

Devs could give it some nice buff to one of its qualities and make it desirable. 

-Extra Thickness

-New top deck

etc...

I think it's fairly simple to resurrect these ships. 

Edited October 18, 2017 by George Washington

[George Washington]

1 minute ago, Peter Goldman said:

Trincomalee has the same turn rate as Constitution (2.57). Requires permit too. Endymion needs permit as well and has terrible turn rate (2.49) which in fact is worse than Connie and Trinc! 

A Complete mess. 

Edited October 18, 2017 by George Washington

[Aquillas]

I also think that Trinconmalee should be improved (turn rate), same for Belle Poule and Essex (HP, armour).

About Wasa, either her BR should be strongly increased, linked to future PB engagement rules, or the ship characteristics shall be sooner or later reduced. 

[Rigs]

52 minutes ago, George Washington said:

Can't do it, it will hurt the game. Less used ships should be PvE mark exchange. Always. 

It hurts the game to force the players into getting a level 3 shipyard and to the PvE content behind it. It hurts the new players, single players and small clan players. it hurts the game that crafters to have sole monopoly and dictate prices. It hurts the game by allowing inflated ship prices which reduces affordability, increases loss and recovery time all that is time away from PvP. A good economy has variety, competition and affordability, allowing multiple ways to achieve the desired product so the prices are kept in check and everyone can afford them.

If combat marks prices getting too high people will craft or buy from crafters and if crafted ships get too high people will buy combat marks.

Not to mention it's a game and most people don't have the time and want some action/enjoyment as soon as possible or they will find something else.

I'm surprised it comes from you considering that you were/are a proponent for the fast OW travel times. 

Edited October 18, 2017 by Rigs

[victor]

54 minutes ago, Peter Goldman said:

Trincomalee has the same turn rate as Constitution (2.57). Requires permit too. Endymion needs permit as well and has terrible turn rate (2.49) which in fact is worse than Connie and Trinc! 

which part of the sentence "let alone the Trinco that is absolutely crap and Endy that would be faster anyway" (included in my previouis post) did you miss?

Edited October 18, 2017 by victor

[manuva85]

You do not rebalance once and end it, you are stuck ballancing every few weeks, bcs as soon as you nerfed something op players will find next strongest thing after it and abuse that. That is why rebalancing is a constant proces , that ends at the momnent the game popularity dies. That is how they do it in other multiplayer games.