LeBoiteux Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 (edited) 6th-Rate plan challenge There is no official current gap inbetween the ingame 6th-Rates and no expected new ship in the near futur apart from HMS Pandora and Le Requin (24 x 9-pdr), two very nice and awaited additions. Nonetheless, some could be added inbetween the exiting ones some day. So here is the challenge for NA plan-digging fans : post your favorite plans that might fill in the gaps below. Gaps are shown in terms of broadside weight for guns. Table 1 shows the gaps. Table 2 shows some possible armament combinaisons for each gap : Abbreviations GD : gun deck ; WD : weather deck ; fc : forecastle ; bw : broadside weight Calculation of a broadside weight : bw = (number of guns on one side of the gun deck x caliber) + (number of guns on one side of the WD/fc x caliber). Ex : broadside weight of a frigate carrying 20 x 9-pdr + 14 x 6-pdr = 10 x 9 + 7 x 6 = 132 pdr Expected post format : Ships name, date, ship characteristics, plans gap(s) to fil : 1, 2 and/or 3 historical armament and suggestion(s) for ingame armament Have fun Edited October 13, 2017 by LeBoiteux 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelSandwich Posted October 13, 2017 Share Posted October 13, 2017 Ill elaborate in the morning, the plans of the first few suggestions. First 2 Mars 1781, later captured and becomes Orestes. Armament 24x8 pdr, ingame 9pdr = 108 bw , ingame 6pdr = 72 bw Havik, information, 18 guns, unsure to the armament as of now, either 6 or 9. 9x9-pdr = 81 BW. More will follow suit. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeBoiteux Posted October 14, 2017 Author Share Posted October 14, 2017 (edited) Nice post. 11 hours ago, SteelSandwich said: 2 Mars 1781, later captured and becomes Orestes. Armament 24x8 pdr, ingame 9pdr = 108 bw , ingame 6pdr = 72 bw Can we really turn a late XVIII-th century 9-pder into a 6-pder ? Just a question to open up the debate 11 hours ago, SteelSandwich said: Havik, information, 18 guns, unsure to the armament as of now, either 6 or 9. 9x9-pdr = 81 BW. Can't the history of ship building of the nation (ie comparison with other national ships) help to try and deduce an historical armament ? For example, in France, '99%' corvettes built after say 1779 (American war of independence) carried 8-pdr. Edited October 14, 2017 by LeBoiteux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pietjenoob Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, LeBoiteux said: Nice post. Can we really turn a late XVIII-th century 9-pder into a 6-pder ? Just a question to open up the debate Can't the history of ship building of the nation help to try and deduce an historical armament. For example, in France, '99%' corvettes built after say 1779 (American war of independence) carried 8-pdr. On the quick research I did she probaly had in Dutch service her 9 pdr, but in british service she had 6 pdr. As far I am aware of the British had a tendancy to underpower Dutch ships by one caliber. She was captured at the surrender of Saldanda bay in 1796. Wil post later my sources. Btw note the 3 different names they used for her. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitulation_of_Saldanha_Bay https://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=1733 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_sloop_Havik_(1784) Edited October 14, 2017 by pietjenoob Added the sources 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sella Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 (edited) You can't leave this amazing privateer out: https://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=19093 Edited October 14, 2017 by Sella22 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thonys Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 (edited) We need more choice both in types of French, Dutch or British or Spanish cannons, as well as the amount we can put on the ship or the kind ,..say but the type of cannon like long or carronade We need more choice to value as they used to do to keep the ship, including seaworthy or to keep the ship in its role for other uses than was originally intended more types of cannons are needed there is a difference between Dutch /French and the English as a counterpart for the same class , we just don't see it back in the game for the different nation ships say a french A French ship equipped with English cannons is actually very strange: also, nobody seems to notice that ...... they all make calculations but in the end, they are all wrong from the beginning...... if we talk cannons we have to talk about the right cannon on the right ship If we are talking about cannons then we should talk about the type of cannon type ship atm we are not doing that,.... its a flaw just wrong cannons on the wrong ship at the wrong moment in ship time iam afraid and i am sure I'm sure the Dutch ship (wreker class) is equipped with English gun(in this game) which will give a distorted view of the true value of the weight of the gun Also the exchange of English to Dutch weapons will not occur because it does not exist in the game Probably one of the reasons that the ship is not in the game but where there is another nation, where this occurs again to address this current issue This can be really pulled by upgrading the amount of shuffled weights from, for example, 24 pounds to 30 pounds on the lower decks or from 12 to 18 for example Edited October 14, 2017 by Thonys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeBoiteux Posted October 14, 2017 Author Share Posted October 14, 2017 (edited) Descubierta Spanish 1789 9-pdr corvette Historical armament (data from @D. Federico de Gravina y N ) built to carry (source ?): 22 x 8-pdr + 4 x 6-pdr (100-pdr) armament for the Exploration by Alejandro Malaspina : 14 x 6-pdr + 2 x 4-pdr (46 pdr) Suggestion for an in-game armament : gap 3 between USS Niagara (90 pdr) and HMS Pandora (105 pdr) 22 x 9-pdr (99 pdr) 20 x 9-pdr + 4 x 6-pdr (102 pdr) 20 x 9-pdr + 2 x 6-pdr (96 pdr) Info, drawings and plans : http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/6819-descubierta-spanish-corvette-with-plans/ Edited October 14, 2017 by LeBoiteux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeBoiteux Posted October 14, 2017 Author Share Posted October 14, 2017 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Sella22 said: You can't leave this amazing privateer out: What a nice ship !!!! Unfortunately in regards to the Challenge, from threedecks.org, her armament was : 12 x 9-pdr + 6 x 6-pdr + 6 x 4-pdr (84 pdr), giving an in game broadside weight : 12 x 9-pdr + 12 x 6-pdr = 90 pdr = USS Niagara. Did I miss something ? But what a nice ship ! (edited) Maybe with 12 x 9-pdr + 6 x 6-pdr + 4 x 6-pdr (84 pdr) ? (same bw as the historical one) Edited October 14, 2017 by LeBoiteux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sella Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 5 minutes ago, LeBoiteux said: What a nice ship !!!! Unfortunately in regards to the current challenge, from threedecks.org, her armament was : 12 x 9-pdr + 6 x 6-pdr + 6 x 4-pdr, giving an in game broadside weight : 12 x 9-pdr + 12 x 6-pdr = 90 pdr = USS Niagara. Did I miss something ? But what a nice ship ! Her British armament is way less I think. Why is her in game armament 12x9pdr and 12x6pdr? I don't believe that she can carry that much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thonys Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Sella22 said: Her British armament is way less I think. Why is her in game armament 12x9pdr and 12x6pdr? I don't believe that she can carry that much well maybe she can , but the broadside can differ a french gun is different in comparison to British gun even when it is in the same class value Edited October 14, 2017 by Thonys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sella Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 (edited) 18 minutes ago, LeBoiteux said: Maybe with 12 x 9-pdr + 6 x 6-pdr + 4 x 6-pdr (84 pdr) ? (same bw as the historical one) Yes this could deffinetely work 6 minutes ago, Thonys said: a french gun is different in comparison to British gun even when it is in the same class value I think that this has been addresed in the past by admin as well. All of the foreign calibre cannons are converted to their closest British counterpart. I believe that the differences in weight are minor but dont quote me on that. Edited October 14, 2017 by Sella22 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thonys Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 (edited) 19 minutes ago, Sella22 said: Yes this could deffinetely work I think that this has been addresed in the past by admin as well. All of the foreign calibe cannons are converted to their closest British counterpart. I believe that the differences in weight are minor but dont quote me on that. 13 minutes ago, Thonys said: a french gun is different in comparison to British gun even when it is in the same class value 4 i would really love to hear from the devs, how they addressed this situation in the past and going to balance it in the future but for now, i cannot find it back or aware of a balance feature...in this matter but i would rather see a specific type cannon for this specific nation ships(the guns are just different on loading powder perhaps a specific powder loading can be put in the game (then the guns classes don't have to be changed) for example, a Dutch ship is loaded with Dutch powder weight and a British ship is loaded with British powder weight or balls Edited October 14, 2017 by Thonys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeBoiteux Posted October 14, 2017 Author Share Posted October 14, 2017 8 minutes ago, Thonys said: i would really love to hear from the devs, how they addressed this situation in the past and going to balance it in the future but for now, i cannot find it back or aware of a balance feature...in this matter What about creating a dedicated thread about that ? This current one is not about the 'origin' of NA guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z4ys Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 (edited) The French corvette La Créole The La Créole was a 24-gun corvette of the French Navy. Her plans were drawn by P. M. Leroux in 1827. She was launched in Cherbourg in May 1829. The ship took part in the French invasion of Mexico in 1838, and most notably in the Bombardment of San Juan de Ulloa before French troops disembarked and captured the city of Veracruz. There is a fine shipyard model on display at the Musée national de la Marine in Paris which is shown by many photos in the book of Jean Boudriot, Modeles Historiques, Musée de la Marine, ISBN 2 903 179-24, A.N.C.R.E. Paris 1997 (in French). Armament: 20 30-pounder carronades 4 18-pounder long guns Complement: 150 men The ship model was built to plans of Jean Boudriot. Reference with more pictures and details. http://www.modelships.de/La-Creole/Corvette-La-Creole.htm Edited October 14, 2017 by z4ys 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thonys Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 1 minute ago, LeBoiteux said: What about creating a dedicated thread about that ? This current one is not about the 'origin' of NA guns. probably yes it would be a good idea ,but we are talking here about guns an weight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeBoiteux Posted October 14, 2017 Author Share Posted October 14, 2017 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Thonys said: probably yes it would be a good idea ,but we are talking here about guns an weight Concerning this thread, rules are simple : irl 4-pdr becomes in-game 6-pdr irl 8-pdr becomes in-game 9-pdr whatever their nationality. So a French corvette with irl say 22 x 6-pdr + 2 x 4-pdr (70 pdr) might carry in game : 22 x 6-pdr + 2 x 6-pdr and her broadside weight becomes 11 x 6 + 6 = 72 pdr, 22 x 6-pdr (bw = 66 pdr) And bw are calculated with guns not carronades for the sake of simplicity and as OP gaps concern guns. Edited October 14, 2017 by LeBoiteux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thonys Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 (edited) 13 minutes ago, LeBoiteux said: Concerning this thread, rules are simple : irl 4-pdr becomes in-game 6-pdr irl 8-pdr becomes in-game 9-pdr whatever their nationality. So a French corvette with irl say 22 x 6-pdr + 2 x 4-pdr (70 pdr) might carry in game : 22 x 6-pdr + 2 x 6-pdr and her broadside weight becomes 11 x 6 + 6 = 72 pdr, 22 x 6-pdr (bw = 66 pdr) always good to clear up this misunderstanding but in the meantime brits become a little overpowered on speed by weight, what comes from the textbooks for doing sailing speed but is see you point ... Edited October 14, 2017 by Thonys Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pietjenoob Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 Posted the sources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeBoiteux Posted October 14, 2017 Author Share Posted October 14, 2017 @Malachi What about : 1) HMS Mymidon (1781) : http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/6183-myrmidon-1781-british-22-gun-ship-with-plans/?tab=comments#comment-116997 Historical armament : 20 x 6-pdr + 2 x 3-pdr (63 pdr) Suggestion for in-game armament (66 pdr < gap 1 < 78 pdr) : 20 x 6-pdr + 4 x 6-pdr (72 pdr) 2) Christiania (1774) : http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/12971-christiania-danish-20-gun-frigate-1774-with-plans/?tab=comments#comment-235745 Historical armament : 20 x 8-pdr + 10 x Falquonettes (1-pounders) (bw = 85 pdr) Suggestion for in-game armament : 90 pdr < gap 3 < 105 pdr 20 x 9-pdr + 2 x 6-pdr (96 pdr) 20 x 9-pdr + 4 x 6-pdr (102 pdr) I guess the best armament would be : 20 x 9-pdr (90 pdr) ; but we've already had USS Niagara... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeBoiteux Posted October 14, 2017 Author Share Posted October 14, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, z4ys said: The French corvette La Créole Armament: 20 30-pounder carronades 4 18-pounder long guns La Créole is a marvelous French corvette. Her broadside weight in terms of carronades (as that's what she carries) is just a little bit heavier than that of USS Niagara. But she's a bit out of NA time frame (1820). And what could she carry on her gundeck as 24 guns to be also in gap 3 ? Edited October 14, 2017 by LeBoiteux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z4ys Posted October 14, 2017 Share Posted October 14, 2017 1 minute ago, LeBoiteux said: La Créole is a marvelous French frigate. Her broadside weight in terms of carronades (as that's what she carries) is just a little bit heavier than that of USS Niagara. But she's a bit out of NA time frame (1820). And what could she carry on her gundeck as 24 guns to be also in gap 3 ? I would give her 9pds like the niagara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeBoiteux Posted October 14, 2017 Author Share Posted October 14, 2017 (edited) On 14/10/2017 at 8:31 PM, z4ys said: I would give her 9pds like the niagara 12-pdr ? but with 24 x 9-pdr, she'd be already heavier than HMS Pandora and like Le Requin that might already carries 24 x 9-pdr. I don't say La Créole shouldn't be in game (I love her), just that I don't know how to make her fill in one of the 3 gaps of this thread. Edited October 16, 2017 by LeBoiteux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeBoiteux Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 (edited) Looking for the whole plan of the parts below from a French frigate built in c. 1700-1705 without name, 28 guns. The central part is missing. Her plan is at the Danish National Archives. Her figurehead seems to represent a mythological winged(?) male figue wearing an helmet (Hermes/Mercury ?). Unknown name French Light frigate 1700-1705 Historical armament : 20 x 6-pdr + 8 x 4-pdr (76 pdr) Suggestion for in-game armament : 20 x 6 + 4 x 6-pdr (72-pdr) (gap1) 20 x 6 + 8 x 6-pdr (84-pdr) (gap 2) Source : Boudriot, History of the French frigate, p. 60 Edited October 15, 2017 by LeBoiteux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malachi Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 15 hours ago, LeBoiteux said: @Malachi What about : 1) HMS Mymidon (1781) : http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/6183-myrmidon-1781-british-22-gun-ship-with-plans/?tab=comments#comment-116997 Historical armament : 20 x 6-pdr + 2 x 3-pdr (63 pdr) Suggestion for in-game armament (66 pdr < gap 1 < 78 pdr) : 20 x 6-pdr + 4 x 6-pdr (72 pdr) 2) Christiania (1774) : http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/12971-christiania-danish-20-gun-frigate-1774-with-plans/?tab=comments#comment-235745 Historical armament : 20 x 8-pdr + 10 x Falquonettes (1-pounders) (bw = 85 pdr) Suggestion for in-game armament : 90 pdr < gap 3 < 105 pdr 20 x 9-pdr + 2 x 6-pdr (96 pdr) 20 x 9-pdr + 4 x 6-pdr (102 pdr) I guess the best armament would be : 20 x 9-pdr (90 pdr) ; but we've already had USS Niagara... Christiania´s sisterships Tranqvebar, Alsen and Færøe had an armed quarterdeck, so they might be a better match (4 to 6 4-pounders) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeBoiteux Posted October 15, 2017 Author Share Posted October 15, 2017 (edited) Summing up of the proposals so far Gap 1 : Snow (HMS Ontario) - Ratlesnake heavy Gap 2 : Ratlesnake heavy - USS Niagara Gap 3 : USS Niagara - HMS Pandora Any correction (mistakes, oversight...) and new suggestion are welcome. Edited October 15, 2017 by LeBoiteux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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