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LeBoiteux

Looking for Light frigates... and I found !

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Looking for light frigates (with plans from any nation of course) that could fill in the gap between the Renommée and HMS Surprise, that is :

  • 9-pdr frigates (with 30-36 guns)
  • and 12-pdr ones (with 22-28 guns)

whose broadside weights are between 129 pdr (broadside weight of La Renommée) and 150 pdr (HMS Surprise).

I thought that a listing of possible combinaisons of armament (with 9-pdr or 12-pdr on the gun deck) may help for future search.

Data :

4L0SFyS.png

Results :

Combinaisons of armament that meet the criteria : 129 < broadside weight (GD+WD) < 150.

Here are three combinaisons (GD/WD-fc) : 9-pdr/6-pdr, 12-pdr/6-pdr and 12-pdr/9-pdr.

NB : in game, 4-pdrs on the WD/fc are replaced with 6-pdrs. For example, La Renommée carries in real life 4-pdrs on her WD/fc but 6-pdrs in game. Thus a frigate carrying in real life 20x9-pdr on her gun deck and 14x4-pdr on her WD/fc will carry in game 20x9-pdr + 14x6-pdr and have a broadside weight = 132 pdr (see the first line below). 

As shown below :

  • 9-pdr frigates will carry between 20-30 guns on their gun deck,
  • 12-pdr ones between 20-24 guns.

Guns on their QD/fc complete their armament to meet the correct broadside weight (129-150 pdr) :

1) 9-pdr frigates (with 6-pdrs on QD/fc)

TLJKn4w.png?1

2) 12-pdr frigates

  • with 6-pdrs on QD/fc

GMWNrUM.png?1

  • with 9-pdrs on QD/fc

yrnQgoy.png?1

Abbreviations

GD : gun deck ; WD : weather deck ; fc : forecastle ; bw : broadside weight

Calculation of a broadside weight : (number of guns on one side of the gun deck x caliber) + (number of guns on one side of the WD/fc x caliber).

Ex : broadside weight of a frigate carrying 20 x 9-pdr + 14 x 6-pdr = 10 x 9 + 7 x 6 = 132 pdr

Broadside weights are also visible on https://threedecks.org/ but might need some recalculations (8-pdr -> 9-pdr ; 4-pdr -> 6-pdr) :

C6r0Tom.png

_________________________________________

Any correction in case of mistakes is welcome.

Any idea of ships meeting those armament criteria ?

Edited by LeBoiteux

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La Malicieuse

French 9-pdr frigate

32 guns

1756 - 1777

 

xCRI8B4.png

High res : http://www.sothebys.com/es/auctions/ecatalogue/2011/un-hommage-au-xviiie-sicle-adriano-ribolzi-antiquaire/lot.81.html

 

Armament : (historical) 26 x 8-pd + 6 x 4-pd ; (in-game suggestion) 26 x 9-pd + 6 x 6-pd (broadside weight = 135 pdr)

Dimensions : 124'0" x 31'8" x 16'4"

Built by J.-J. Giroux at Le Havre.

 

Plan of the sistership La Brune :  http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/82724.html

large.jpg

 

Information

J. Boudriot, The History of the French Frigate, p. 86-88

- about La Malicieuse : http://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=12538

- about La Blondehttp://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=11117

 

Thank you very much for the info Malachi!

Original post by Sella22 : http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/6241-5th-6th-rates-collection-with-plans/?do=findComment&comment=254965

Edited by LeBoiteux

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L'Unité

(Alternative names : La Cornélie, La Touterelle, La Républicaine, La Fidèle)

French Revolution 9-pdr corvette

30+ guns

1794

The idea is to adapt in-game HMS Surprise (38 guns) to make a lighter version, that is the French ship before capture, L'Unité (1794) :

  • Armament : 
    • (historical) 24 x 9-pd (Gun deck), 6  x 6-pd (Weather deck) (Source : Jean Boudriot, Historique de la corvette, La Créole 1827, p. 38)
    • (in-game suggestion) 24 x 9-pd + 8 x 6-pd (broadside weight = 132 pdr)
  • Name her L'Unité on the stern or La Cornélie, La Touterelle, La Républicaine, La Fidèle (her sister ships)
  • Give her a different paint scheme than HMS Surprise
  • To distinguish her from HMS Surprise a bit more, you might also add a figurehead as she most likely had one and that'd embody the ship name (for L'Unité, the Unity of the Nation against the Enemy...)

 

OxLrumC.jpg

 

Example : figurehead of French Revolution 40-gun frigate La Poursuivante ('The Chaser') built in 1796

(spear and shield missing ?)

TDiRCx5.jpg

http://mnm.webmuseo.com/ws/musee-national-marine/app/collection/record/9806?vc=ePkH4LF7w6yelGA1iLESKelDn-gElxIANB61KjU2M0Src02M4BU4XDnBeAMAZJRF9Q$$

Edited by LeBoiteux

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La Comète

French fifth Rate

1752

30 guns

 

Designed by Joseph-Louis Ollivier

 

img_0715.jpg

 

Plans:

 

 

 

nuZLEdN.jpg

 

 

Ship model and drawings from: http://modelisme.arsenal.free.fr/jacquesmailliere/La%20Comete/index.html

 

 

nouveau_18.jpg

nouveau_20.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

img_0723.jpg

img_0724.jpg

img_0726.jpg

img_0732.jpg

img_0735.jpg

img_0718.jpg

img_0719.jpg

img_0734.jpg

nouveau_10.jpg

 

 

 

Dimensions(Pied du Roi):

 

Lenght: 118' 0''

Breadth: 31' 8''

Depth in hold: 16' 0''

 

 

Armament:

 

Gundeck: 26 x 8 French pdr

Quarterdeck: 4 x 4 French pdr 

 

Crew: 209, 200 crew and 9 officers

 

Sources: Jean Boudriot The History of the French Frigate 1650-1850

http://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=7574

 

Ornament plans available in French Archives(Number 502): http://www.servicehistorique.sga.defense.gouv.fr/sites/default/files/MV_PLANS-BATIMENTS-A-VOILES.compressed.pdf

 

Thank you LeBoiteux!

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@Sella22 La Comète would do it if we doped her a little bit (with say 26 x 9-pdr + 6 x 6-pdr, adding her only 2 guns on the WD that'd give her a weight broadside = 135 pdr) :)

Edited by LeBoiteux

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On 7/8/2016 at 7:01 AM, akd said:

Alcmene (1774), an attractive French frigate with luxury accommodations.  Admiralty plans for the ship "as taken" in 1779.

 

large.jpg

 

large.jpg

 

large.jpg

 

large.jpg

 

large.jpg

 

large.jpg

 

large.jpg

 

source: http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/83182.html

 

Dimensions: 131' x 35' 2" x 11' 6"

Burthen: 731 9/94 BM

Armament:

QD/FC - 6x French 4pdr / 6x English 6pdr

Upper Deck - 26x French 8pdr / 26x English 9pdr

 

Edited by Sella22

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I really don´t think that there many (if any?) frégates de 8 or british 9-pounder frigates with 6-pounders on the quarterdeck/forecastle.Off the top of my head, I can only think of the Porcupine-class and they had just two on the quarterdeck.

6-pounders and their 24-pound carronade equivalents were are thing for 12-pounder frigates.

 

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On 08/10/2017 at 3:14 PM, Malachi said:

I really don´t think that there many (if any?) frégates de 8 or british 9-pounder frigates with 6-pounders on the quarterdeck/forecastle.Off the top of my head, I can only think of the Porcupine-class and they had just two on the quarterdeck.

6-pounders and their 24-pound carronade equivalents were are thing for 12-pounder frigates.

 

In game, the irl 4-pdrs on the QD/fc are replaced by 6-pdrs. That explains my chart.

See, for example, la Renommée :

  • irl = 4x4-pdr
  • in-game = 4x6-pdr.

OP updated for clarity.

Edited by LeBoiteux

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Christiansborg

Dano-Norwegian 12-pdr frigate

1758

 

Armament (GD) : 24 x 12-pdr (Broadside weight = 144 pdr)

The Christiansborg was designed by Michael Krabbe, launched in 1758 as a 12-pounder frigate, broken up in 1786. Krabbe submitted this plan after returning from the obligatory European study trip (1752 - 1756, visiting British, French, Italian and Dutch shipyards) and a certain French influence is clearly visible. Pictures / 3-Decks

 

christ10.jpg

 

Edited by LeBoiteux

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The Christiansborg certainly is a nice looking ship, but of the danish 24-gun cruisers, the Triton is the most elegant imo:

Untitled.thumb.jpg.0699098543d3de23ef721f0b1aacfe96.jpg

129' 10'', 24 12 - pounders + 6 12-pound carronades (optional)

Quote

In game, the irl 4-pdrs on the QD/fc are replaced by 6-pdrs. That explains my chart and akd writing

Ah, ok, I thought you were searching for ships that carried that armament irl. Sorry! :)

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15 hours ago, Malachi said:

the Triton is the most elegant imo:129' 10'', 24 12 - pounders + 6 12-pound carronades (optional)

Nice ship indeed, but she might have a better place than among the lightest frigates of the game.

Broadside weights in game and suggested place for the Triton :

  • La Renommée : 129 pdr
  • HMS Surprise : 150 pdr
  • The Triton (with QD/fc armament) : 180 pdr
  • La Belle Poule : 198 pdr
  • L'Hermione : 208 pdr

(focus n°1 = 9-pdrs)

15 hours ago, Malachi said:

Ah, ok, I thought you were searching for ships that carried that armament irl. Sorry! :)

My fault : my OP wasn't clear. :)

Edited by LeBoiteux

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On 10/8/2017 at 8:24 AM, LeBoiteux said:

In game, the irl 4-pdrs on the QD/fc are replaced by 6-pdrs. That explains my chart and akd writing :

 

In the case of Alcmene, IIRC her QD/FC 4pdrs were replaced with 6pdrs in British service after capture.

Edited by akd

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3 minutes ago, akd said:

In the case of Alcmene, IIRC her QD/FC 4pdrs were replaced with 6pdrs in British service after capture.

Thx for the info. My post above edited.

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The 1818 improved version of the original 1806 Venus & lynx corvettes, consisting of 4 ships: Lynx, Dolfijn, Zeepaard and Galathe.

Armament 20x12-pdr + 8x12 (C)

Would put BW at a nice 168 pounds. Which leaves a bit of room for tweaking into the needed catagory.

Dimensions (Amsterdamse voet)

130 x 34 (5,5/11) x 17 (7,5/11)

 

28-gun, Lynx & Dolfijn, 1818

  Hide contents

i6LjOJN.jpg

Z07vBen.jpg

1ankC2K.jpg

YR4IUMc.jpg

 

28-gun, Zeepaard, 1818

  Hide contents

FEvaylm.jpg

OXe7qST.jpg

 

28-gun, Galathe, 1818

  Hide contents

LqStzSu.jpg

mDnTRj8.jpg

Crew Dolfijn:

YnuRdAl.jpg

 

Crew Galathe:

YkC1vtZ.jpg

Crew Zeepaard:

TBkCtaM.jpg

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@SteelSandwich Nice contribution.  

Those 12-pdr Corvettes of yours could indeed be a nice addition with an armament reduced to 20 x 12-pdr + 4 x 12-pdr (bw = 144 pdr). But, on the other way, with their historical armament (and their bw = 168 pdr), they could be interestingly added as is between HMS Surprise (150 pdr) and La Belle Poule (198 pdr).

No dutch 9-pdr frigates ? 9-pdrs might fall into the desired category even more smoothly :)

 

Edited by LeBoiteux

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A rather well known (8/9-pdr frigate) 24 guns would result in a BW of 108 when using 9's. Which is a bit underwhelming, but that is under the assumption the qd and fc weren't used for guns. Which would not be unreasonable imo to do deploy on.

omqgel9.jpg

 

Sirene, later the british Laurel, would carry 24x 9 + 8x 6 resulting in 132 BW:

JffJ2Ic.jpg

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Summing up of the proposals so far (by order of appearance in this thread) :

VElDrxi.png

(About the suggestion of armament in game : in some cases, more guns could be added on the QD/fc as long as bw <150 pdr)

NB : I am not that sure that the Triton (1789) would be best used among the lighter frigates in game. Her broadside weight with QD/fc armament (6 x 12-pdr) being 180 pdr, that might make her a good addition between HMS Surprise (150 pdr) and La Belle Poule (198 pdr). On the other hand, two versions of the Triton (one with QD/fc guns and the other without) is another option.

_________________________________________

Any Spanish, Venetian, Portuguese, British, US (...) ships meeting the specs ? :)

Edited by LeBoiteux

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7 hours ago, LeBoiteux said:

Any Spanish, Venetian, Portuguese, British, US (...) ships meeting the specs ? :)

Venice has a few, the most fitting to the timeframe of the game are the Constanza 2 class of 28 guns, Cerere Class of 32 guns (not to be confused with the later ship Carere), there is also the 38 gun Palma class but thats slightly outside of the limit and the Pallade class transport frigate of 24 guns. Pallade and Cerere share the same hull form, however the outfitting was quite different, as was the armament.

Constanza 2's Dimensions:

  • Max Length: 37.87m
  • Keel Length 32.33m
  • Max Width: 9.91m
  • Bilge Tip: 9.56m
  • Draft 4.52m

Armed with (in Venetian pounds)

  • 20 x 20lb (6kg)
  • 8 x 12lb (3.6kg)

Ships:

  • Constanza 2 (1757)
  • Tolleranza (1757)
  • Brillante (1778)

I'm not aware of any plans for the design, although some may pop up at some point, I may have them anyway just without noticing.

Both Cerere's and Pallade's dimensions are:

  • Max Length: 42.42m
  • Keel Length 36.51m
  • Max Width: 11.13m
  • Bilge Tip: 9.56m
  • Draft: 4.95m

Cerere was armed with (In Venetian pounds):
24 x 20lb (6kg)
8 x 12lb (3.6kg)

Ships:

  • Carere (1794)
  • Aquelia (1804/5)
  • Unnamed, Never completed

Pallade was armed with:
24 x 20lb (6kg)

Ships:

  • Pallade (1786)
  • Venere (1786)

The Plans for both these ships:
Lx76tVh.jpg

The Palma Class was built to:

  • Max Length: 42.42m
  • Keel Length: 36.51m
  • Max Width: 11.26m
  • Bilge Tip: 8.06m
  • Draft 5.63m

Armament (Venetian pounds):

  • 26 x 20lb (6kg)
  • 12 x 12lb (3.6kg)

Ships:

  • Palma (1784)
  • Bellona ( 1788)
  • Medusa (1791)
  • Adria (1803)
  • Austria (1805)

I'm currently not quite sure on the plans for Palma, there should be some out there, I don't think they share the same lines as the smaller ships but would be a much similar design, Its something I am really trying hard to work out and track down, sadly with no success so far...

Hope this helps :)

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@Fluffy Fishy Thx for you post. :)

1) You write as an equivalence :  20 venetian lb  = 6kg and 12 venetian lb  = 3.6kg, that is 1 venetian lb  = O.3 kg. 

Yet, @LatoucheTréville and @Wagram wrote : 1 venetian lb = 0.488 kg.

On 24/10/2015 at 12:13 PM, LatoucheTréville said:

La livre vénitienne correspond à 488 grammes.

 

On 24/10/2015 at 12:47 PM, Wagram said:

Bonne réponse de LatoucheTréville, surtout en ce qui concerne le poids des boulets (30 livres, etc.).

2) All the Venetian ships in your post seem to be too powerful to be light frigates in game (unless I missed something) :

  • Constanza 220 x 18-pdr + 8 x 12-pdr
  • Cerere24 x 18-pdr + 8 x 12-pdr
  • Pallade24 x 18-pdr
  • Palma  : 26 x 18-pdr + 12 x 12-pdr 

 

Edited by LeBoiteux

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Termagant, british, 1780 - 1795, 22 guns

V8VPqnu.jpg?1

Adolph Friedric, swedish, 1763 - 1786, 24 guns (East-Indiaman)

7vBFhDN.jpg?1

Christiansborg, danish, 1758 - 1786, 24 guns

8kNEyyr.jpg?1

No Name, dutch, ~1750, 22 guns

vz7GFuj.jpg?1

Spanish 6th rate , 26 guns

large.jpg

Frederiksteen 32 guns 1800

large.jpg

La Malicieuse 32 guns 1758

large.jpg

Heldin, Dutch, 1796

ndc6Vao.jpg

 

Edited by George Washington

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12 minutes ago, LeBoiteux said:

@Fluffy Fishy Thx for you post. :)

2) All the Venetian ships in your post seem to be too powerful to be light frigates in game (unless I missed something) :

  • Constanza 220 x 18-pdr + 8 x 12-pdr
  • Cerere24 x 18-pdr + 8 x 12-pdr
  • Pallade24 x 18-pdr
  • Palma  : 26 x 18-pdr + 12 x 12-pdr 

 

You are getting mixed up with the poundage, Venetian pounds are lighter than most others so when you convert the Venetian weight to English poundage the Venetian 20lb is just under 13.3lb while the Venetian 12lb cannons are equivalent to just below 8lb. so while you would probably most closely model this to having 12lb on the main deck and 9 on the weatherdeck there's no reason why you couldn't just take the French armaments after they were seized. The Constanza 2 class was long gone by the end of the Venetian Republic but the others were rearmed to French weights.

Cerere was given 22 x 12lb, 4x 6lb and 6 x 12lb Carronade.
Pallade was reamed with 20 x 12lbs,
The Palma class ships were given different armaments, Palma was given entirely 8lbs, Bellona was given some old 18lbs, Medusa was converted into a hospital ship and Adria and Austria were equipped with 24 x 12lbs and 10 x 6lbs.

I see no reason not to restrict their armament to 12lbs, mainly due to the unusual weighting of Venetian cannons.

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@George Washington Thx for your posts.

I really need :

  • the historical armament (caliber) with each plans 
  • ships that really meet OP specs.
  • ships that have not already been posted in the thread (La Malicieuse, Christiansborg).
Edited by LeBoiteux

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