LeBoiteux Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 (edited) Looking for light frigates (with plans from any nation of course) that could fill in the gap between the Renommée and HMS Surprise, that is : 9-pdr frigates (with 30-36 guns) and 12-pdr ones (with 22-28 guns) whose broadside weights are between 129 pdr (broadside weight of La Renommée) and 150 pdr (HMS Surprise). I thought that a listing of possible combinaisons of armament (with 9-pdr or 12-pdr on the gun deck) may help for future search. Data : Results : Combinaisons of armament that meet the criteria : 129 < broadside weight (GD+WD) < 150. Here are three combinaisons (GD/WD-fc) : 9-pdr/6-pdr, 12-pdr/6-pdr and 12-pdr/9-pdr. NB : in game, 4-pdrs on the WD/fc are replaced with 6-pdrs. For example, La Renommée carries in real life 4-pdrs on her WD/fc but 6-pdrs in game. Thus a frigate carrying in real life 20x9-pdr on her gun deck and 14x4-pdr on her WD/fc will carry in game 20x9-pdr + 14x6-pdr and have a broadside weight = 132 pdr (see the first line below). As shown below : 9-pdr frigates will carry between 20-30 guns on their gun deck, 12-pdr ones between 20-24 guns. Guns on their QD/fc complete their armament to meet the correct broadside weight (129-150 pdr) : 1) 9-pdr frigates (with 6-pdrs on QD/fc) 2) 12-pdr frigates with 6-pdrs on QD/fc with 9-pdrs on QD/fc Abbreviations GD : gun deck ; WD : weather deck ; fc : forecastle ; bw : broadside weight Calculation of a broadside weight : (number of guns on one side of the gun deck x caliber) + (number of guns on one side of the WD/fc x caliber). Ex : broadside weight of a frigate carrying 20 x 9-pdr + 14 x 6-pdr = 10 x 9 + 7 x 6 = 132 pdr Broadside weights are also visible on https://threedecks.org/ but might need some recalculations (8-pdr -> 9-pdr ; 4-pdr -> 6-pdr) : _________________________________________ Any correction in case of mistakes is welcome. Any idea of ships meeting those armament criteria ? Edited October 11, 2017 by LeBoiteux 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeBoiteux Posted October 8, 2017 Author Share Posted October 8, 2017 (edited) La Malicieuse French 9-pdr frigate 32 guns 1756 - 1777 High res : http://www.sothebys.com/es/auctions/ecatalogue/2011/un-hommage-au-xviiie-sicle-adriano-ribolzi-antiquaire/lot.81.html Armament : (historical) 26 x 8-pd + 6 x 4-pd ; (in-game suggestion) 26 x 9-pd + 6 x 6-pd (broadside weight = 135 pdr) Dimensions : 124'0" x 31'8" x 16'4" Built by J.-J. Giroux at Le Havre. Plan of the sistership La Brune : http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/82724.html Information J. Boudriot, The History of the French Frigate, p. 86-88 - about La Malicieuse : http://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=12538 - about La Blonde : http://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=11117 Thank you very much for the info Malachi! Original post by Sella22 : http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/6241-5th-6th-rates-collection-with-plans/?do=findComment&comment=254965 Edited October 8, 2017 by LeBoiteux 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeBoiteux Posted October 8, 2017 Author Share Posted October 8, 2017 (edited) L'Unité (Alternative names : La Cornélie, La Touterelle, La Républicaine, La Fidèle) French Revolution 9-pdr corvette 30+ guns 1794 The idea is to adapt in-game HMS Surprise (38 guns) to make a lighter version, that is the French ship before capture, L'Unité (1794) : Armament (historical) : 24 x 8-pd (Gun deck), 6 x 4-pd (Weather deck) (Source : Jean Boudriot, Historique de la corvette, La Créole 1827, p. 38) Name her L'Unité on the stern or La Cornélie, La Touterelle, La Républicaine, La Fidèle (her sister ships) Give her a different paint scheme than HMS Surprise : 4. To distinguish her from HMS Surprise a bit more, you can also add her figurehead : Edited December 17, 2018 by LeBoiteux 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sella Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 La Comète French fifth Rate 1752 30 guns Designed by Joseph-Louis Ollivier Plans: Ship model and drawings from: http://modelisme.arsenal.free.fr/jacquesmailliere/La%20Comete/index.html Dimensions(Pied du Roi): Lenght: 118' 0'' Breadth: 31' 8'' Depth in hold: 16' 0'' Armament: Gundeck: 26 x 8 French pdr Quarterdeck: 4 x 4 French pdr Crew: 209, 200 crew and 9 officers Sources: Jean Boudriot The History of the French Frigate 1650-1850 http://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=7574 Ornament plans available in French Archives(Number 502): http://www.servicehistorique.sga.defense.gouv.fr/sites/default/files/MV_PLANS-BATIMENTS-A-VOILES.compressed.pdf Thank you LeBoiteux! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeBoiteux Posted October 8, 2017 Author Share Posted October 8, 2017 (edited) @Sella22 La Comète would do it if we doped her a little bit (with say 26 x 9-pdr + 6 x 6-pdr, adding her only 2 guns on the WD that'd give her a weight broadside = 135 pdr) Edited October 8, 2017 by LeBoiteux 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sella Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 (edited) On 7/8/2016 at 7:01 AM, akd said: Alcmene (1774), an attractive French frigate with luxury accommodations. Admiralty plans for the ship "as taken" in 1779. source: http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/83182.html Dimensions: 131' x 35' 2" x 11' 6" Burthen: 731 9/94 BM Armament: QD/FC - 6x French 4pdr / 6x English 6pdr Upper Deck - 26x French 8pdr / 26x English 9pdr Edited October 8, 2017 by Sella22 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malachi Posted October 8, 2017 Share Posted October 8, 2017 I really don´t think that there many (if any?) frégates de 8 or british 9-pounder frigates with 6-pounders on the quarterdeck/forecastle.Off the top of my head, I can only think of the Porcupine-class and they had just two on the quarterdeck. 6-pounders and their 24-pound carronade equivalents were are thing for 12-pounder frigates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeBoiteux Posted October 8, 2017 Author Share Posted October 8, 2017 (edited) On 08/10/2017 at 3:14 PM, Malachi said: I really don´t think that there many (if any?) frégates de 8 or british 9-pounder frigates with 6-pounders on the quarterdeck/forecastle.Off the top of my head, I can only think of the Porcupine-class and they had just two on the quarterdeck. 6-pounders and their 24-pound carronade equivalents were are thing for 12-pounder frigates. In game, the irl 4-pdrs on the QD/fc are replaced by 6-pdrs. That explains my chart. See, for example, la Renommée : irl = 4x4-pdr in-game = 4x6-pdr. OP updated for clarity. Edited October 9, 2017 by LeBoiteux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeBoiteux Posted October 8, 2017 Author Share Posted October 8, 2017 (edited) Christiansborg Dano-Norwegian 12-pdr frigate 1758 Armament (GD) : 24 x 12-pdr (Broadside weight = 144 pdr) The Christiansborg was designed by Michael Krabbe, launched in 1758 as a 12-pounder frigate, broken up in 1786. Krabbe submitted this plan after returning from the obligatory European study trip (1752 - 1756, visiting British, French, Italian and Dutch shipyards) and a certain French influence is clearly visible. Pictures / 3-Decks Edited October 8, 2017 by LeBoiteux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malachi Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 (edited) The Christiansborg certainly is a nice looking ship, but of the danish 24-gun cruisers, the Triton is the most elegant imo: 129' 10'', 24 12 - pounders + 6 12-pound carronades (optional) Quote In game, the irl 4-pdrs on the QD/fc are replaced by 6-pdrs. That explains my chart and akd writing Ah, ok, I thought you were searching for ships that carried that armament irl. Sorry! Edited April 5, 2019 by Malachi 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeBoiteux Posted October 9, 2017 Author Share Posted October 9, 2017 (edited) 15 hours ago, Malachi said: the Triton is the most elegant imo:129' 10'', 24 12 - pounders + 6 12-pound carronades (optional) Nice ship indeed, but she might have a better place than among the lightest frigates of the game. Broadside weights in game and suggested place for the Triton : La Renommée : 129 pdr HMS Surprise : 150 pdr The Triton (with QD/fc armament) : 180 pdr La Belle Poule : 198 pdr L'Hermione : 208 pdr (focus n°1 = 9-pdrs) 15 hours ago, Malachi said: Ah, ok, I thought you were searching for ships that carried that armament irl. Sorry! My fault : my OP wasn't clear. Edited October 10, 2017 by LeBoiteux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 (edited) On 10/8/2017 at 8:24 AM, LeBoiteux said: In game, the irl 4-pdrs on the QD/fc are replaced by 6-pdrs. That explains my chart and akd writing : In the case of Alcmene, IIRC her QD/FC 4pdrs were replaced with 6pdrs in British service after capture. Edited October 9, 2017 by akd 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeBoiteux Posted October 9, 2017 Author Share Posted October 9, 2017 3 minutes ago, akd said: In the case of Alcmene, IIRC her QD/FC 4pdrs were replaced with 6pdrs in British service after capture. Thx for the info. My post above edited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelSandwich Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 The 1818 improved version of the original 1806 Venus & lynx corvettes, consisting of 4 ships: Lynx, Dolfijn, Zeepaard and Galathe. Armament 20x12-pdr + 8x12 (C) Would put BW at a nice 168 pounds. Which leaves a bit of room for tweaking into the needed catagory. Dimensions (Amsterdamse voet) 130 x 34 (5,5/11) x 17 (7,5/11) 28-gun, Lynx & Dolfijn, 1818 Hide contents 28-gun, Zeepaard, 1818 Hide contents 28-gun, Galathe, 1818 Hide contents Crew Dolfijn: Crew Galathe: Crew Zeepaard: 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeBoiteux Posted October 9, 2017 Author Share Posted October 9, 2017 (edited) @SteelSandwich Nice contribution. Those 12-pdr Corvettes of yours could indeed be a nice addition with an armament reduced to 20 x 12-pdr + 4 x 12-pdr (bw = 144 pdr). But, on the other way, with their historical armament (and their bw = 168 pdr), they could be interestingly added as is between HMS Surprise (150 pdr) and La Belle Poule (198 pdr). No dutch 9-pdr frigates ? 9-pdrs might fall into the desired category even more smoothly . Edited October 10, 2017 by LeBoiteux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelSandwich Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 A rather well known (8/9-pdr frigate) 24 guns would result in a BW of 108 when using 9's. Which is a bit underwhelming, but that is under the assumption the qd and fc weren't used for guns. Which would not be unreasonable imo to do deploy on. Sirene, later the british Laurel, would carry 24x 9 + 8x 6 resulting in 132 BW: 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeBoiteux Posted October 10, 2017 Author Share Posted October 10, 2017 (edited) Summing up of the proposals so far (by order of appearance in this thread) : (About the suggestion of armament in game : in some cases, more guns could be added on the QD/fc as long as bw <150 pdr) NB : I am not that sure that the Triton (1789) would be best used among the lighter frigates in game. Her broadside weight with QD/fc armament (6 x 12-pdr) being 180 pdr, that might make her a good addition between HMS Surprise (150 pdr) and La Belle Poule (198 pdr). On the other hand, two versions of the Triton (one with QD/fc guns and the other without) is another option. _________________________________________ Any Spanish, Venetian, Portuguese, British, US (...) ships meeting the specs ? Edited October 10, 2017 by LeBoiteux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelSandwich Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 YoB are 1769 and 1786 respectfully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeBoiteux Posted October 10, 2017 Author Share Posted October 10, 2017 21 minutes ago, SteelSandwich said: YoB are 1769 and 1786 respectfully. table above updated. Thx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Fishy Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 7 hours ago, LeBoiteux said: Any Spanish, Venetian, Portuguese, British, US (...) ships meeting the specs ? Venice has a few, the most fitting to the timeframe of the game are the Constanza 2 class of 28 guns, Cerere Class of 32 guns (not to be confused with the later ship Carere), there is also the 38 gun Palma class but thats slightly outside of the limit and the Pallade class transport frigate of 24 guns. Pallade and Cerere share the same hull form, however the outfitting was quite different, as was the armament. Constanza 2's Dimensions: Max Length: 37.87m Keel Length 32.33m Max Width: 9.91m Bilge Tip: 9.56m Draft 4.52m Armed with (in Venetian pounds) 20 x 20lb (6kg) 8 x 12lb (3.6kg) Ships: Constanza 2 (1757) Tolleranza (1757) Brillante (1778) I'm not aware of any plans for the design, although some may pop up at some point, I may have them anyway just without noticing. Both Cerere's and Pallade's dimensions are: Max Length: 42.42m Keel Length 36.51m Max Width: 11.13m Bilge Tip: 9.56m Draft: 4.95m Cerere was armed with (In Venetian pounds): 24 x 20lb (6kg) 8 x 12lb (3.6kg) Ships: Carere (1794) Aquelia (1804/5) Unnamed, Never completed Pallade was armed with: 24 x 20lb (6kg) Ships: Pallade (1786) Venere (1786) The Plans for both these ships: The Palma Class was built to: Max Length: 42.42m Keel Length: 36.51m Max Width: 11.26m Bilge Tip: 8.06m Draft 5.63m Armament (Venetian pounds): 26 x 20lb (6kg) 12 x 12lb (3.6kg) Ships: Palma (1784) Bellona ( 1788) Medusa (1791) Adria (1803) Austria (1805) I'm currently not quite sure on the plans for Palma, there should be some out there, I don't think they share the same lines as the smaller ships but would be a much similar design, Its something I am really trying hard to work out and track down, sadly with no success so far... Hope this helps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeBoiteux Posted October 10, 2017 Author Share Posted October 10, 2017 (edited) @Fluffy Fishy Thx for you post. 1) You write as an equivalence : 20 venetian lb = 6kg and 12 venetian lb = 3.6kg, that is 1 venetian lb = O.3 kg. Yet, @LatoucheTréville and @Wagram wrote : 1 venetian lb = 0.488 kg. On 24/10/2015 at 12:13 PM, LatoucheTréville said: La livre vénitienne correspond à 488 grammes. On 24/10/2015 at 12:47 PM, Wagram said: Bonne réponse de LatoucheTréville, surtout en ce qui concerne le poids des boulets (30 livres, etc.). 2) All the Venetian ships in your post seem to be too powerful to be light frigates in game (unless I missed something) : Constanza 2 : 20 x 18-pdr + 8 x 12-pdr Cerere : 24 x 18-pdr + 8 x 12-pdr Pallade : 24 x 18-pdr Palma : 26 x 18-pdr + 12 x 12-pdr Edited October 10, 2017 by LeBoiteux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Washington Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 Will these be too small? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Washington Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 (edited) Termagant, british, 1780 - 1795, 22 guns Adolph Friedric, swedish, 1763 - 1786, 24 guns (East-Indiaman) Christiansborg, danish, 1758 - 1786, 24 guns No Name, dutch, ~1750, 22 guns Spanish 6th rate , 26 guns Frederiksteen 32 guns 1800 La Malicieuse 32 guns 1758 Heldin, Dutch, 1796 Edited October 10, 2017 by George Washington Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Fishy Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 12 minutes ago, LeBoiteux said: @Fluffy Fishy Thx for you post. 2) All the Venetian ships in your post seem to be too powerful to be light frigates in game (unless I missed something) : Constanza 2 : 20 x 18-pdr + 8 x 12-pdr Cerere : 24 x 18-pdr + 8 x 12-pdr Pallade : 24 x 18-pdr Palma : 26 x 18-pdr + 12 x 12-pdr You are getting mixed up with the poundage, Venetian pounds are lighter than most others so when you convert the Venetian weight to English poundage the Venetian 20lb is just under 13.3lb while the Venetian 12lb cannons are equivalent to just below 8lb. so while you would probably most closely model this to having 12lb on the main deck and 9 on the weatherdeck there's no reason why you couldn't just take the French armaments after they were seized. The Constanza 2 class was long gone by the end of the Venetian Republic but the others were rearmed to French weights. Cerere was given 22 x 12lb, 4x 6lb and 6 x 12lb Carronade. Pallade was reamed with 20 x 12lbs, The Palma class ships were given different armaments, Palma was given entirely 8lbs, Bellona was given some old 18lbs, Medusa was converted into a hospital ship and Adria and Austria were equipped with 24 x 12lbs and 10 x 6lbs. I see no reason not to restrict their armament to 12lbs, mainly due to the unusual weighting of Venetian cannons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeBoiteux Posted October 10, 2017 Author Share Posted October 10, 2017 (edited) @George Washington Thx for your posts. I really need : the historical armament (caliber) with each plans ships that really meet OP specs. ships that have not already been posted in the thread (La Malicieuse, Christiansborg). Edited October 10, 2017 by LeBoiteux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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