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Player-selected ship 2017 - Final poll

Choose the vessel you prefer  

361 members have voted

  1. 1. Choose the vessel you prefer

    • Friderichsværn
      9
    • Nikolai
      4
    • Venus
      26
    • Princesa Real
      19
    • HMS Leopard
      8
    • Princes Wilhelmina
      6
    • Wenden
      5
    • Vrijheid class
      7
    • Téméraire class
      65
    • Montañés class
      123
    • Wreker class
      78
    • HMS Foudroyant
      11


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22 minutes ago, Fluffy Fishy said:

People have since that post was made asked if there was going to be a ship of each of those ranges and it has been said that its not the case, those are just the requirements for which ever one of the next ships will be added, as far as other posts have said so its going to be either a 32-36, 50-60 or 70-80 not a 32-36 50-60 and 70-80. I would much prefer the idea of adding multiple ships but this time as far as has been announced its not the case, it was also confirmed not too far back that no other ships were being worked on for the game, although hopefully it has changed a little since then, especially as there are now 2 games sharing assets.

Montanes isn't a particularly advanced ship technologically, she is a typically light built Spanish 74, Spanish ships being constructed with thinner frames and planking than was typical of the French, and much more so than the British. The speed she had at the time of her running was also in part due to her being armed with a compliment of lighter guns combined with copper plating, something as far as I am aware not all Spanish ships had at the time, compared to all RN ships having more advanced sheathing. She is nice to look at, I don't have any issues with that but it makes so much more sense to add a more typical 70 gun Spanish ship first, they would be fun to play, add more variety and generally be a bit different.

Endymion was famous for her speed which was inconsistent compared to the rest of her class by the same design, which is partly why she has such a longer and more interesting history than Severn, Liffey, Liverpool, Glasgow and Forth. She is a great ship but also just a good example of what happens and why Montanes wouldn't get her somewhat dubiously impressive speed.

I'm not being impolite, I'm just a bit miffed why so many people like Montanes so much, she is a fairly unexciting 74 as things go and is somewhat of a waste of a chance to get a much more interesting ship into the game.

If the devs needs to fill 3 gaps it is clear that they will add 3 new ship. Most polls have added 2-3 ships and one being the wildcard.

@Barberouge can you answer our doubts?

@flufly: Do you have a degree in spanish naval architecture in the XVIII century to be so sure how one specific ship was built?

Edited by Intrepido

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1 minute ago, Intrepido said:

If the devs needs to fill 3 gaps it is clear that they will add 3 new ship. Most polls have added 2-3 ships and one being the wildcard.

@Barberouge can you answer our doubts?

Do you have a degree in spanish naval architecture in the XVIII century to be so sure how one specific ship was built?

Don't get me wrong, as I said just now, I would love to see 3 or 4 ships but from what I have read so far it looks very much like we are only getting one from the poll, my hope is that the devs have also got a few ideas they are putting out regardless of the democratic outcome of what is going on here, I have a feeling that's not the case though as it seems like other development priorities are far more pressing in their books.

You don't need a degree in historical Spanish naval architecture to understand how different cultural shipbuilding works, I'm pretty sure there isn't even a degree level qualification in the subject anyway, the best course I have personally seen is the naval history course offered by the University of Genoa, beyond that you are looking at least at masters thesis or more likely PhD work or more specialised non university courses working with historic dockyards or museums. Spanish and Iberian ships of the period in general are well known for being more lightly constructed than other navies, similarly the Genovese followed a very inter-lapping cultural shipbuilding history as the two nations worked quite closely together through the age of discovery into the age of sail.

Spanish ships of the period were simply built to mainly act in convoy escort missions helping protect wealth coming into Spain from their new world empire and colonies. because of this the Spanish tended to build smaller ships, more broadly favouring the 70 gunner over the 74, with both these types of ships being built to more of a speed over distance than combat effectiveness, acting more as a deterrent than anything else, The Spanish fighting navy supported these weaker hulled 70s and 74s with their large first rates usually either 112 or 114 guns which were a little more robust, but again still more fragile than their British and French counterparts. The general lightness of the Spanish 74s made them much better at their day to day activities of trips to the new world and back but made them somewhat vulnerable in combat, they also had a fairly poor turn rate, being made for speed over agility.

Looking more into the technological aspect, Spanish shipbuilding was somewhat behind the curve of Britain and France, having suffered greatly in the 30 years war, lost out on investment into their navy, so after this period the Spanish suffered a long period of relative conservatism, this was further solidified by the war of Spanish succession leaving them a bit behind other European navies, which is why you see the vast majority of 18th century advancements happening in Britain and France, where the French tended to perfect sailing ratios, rigging and hullform, while the British spent time advancing hull strength and additional technology like coppering.

Generally speaking when comparing Britain France and Spain you see quite a large difference in what they look for in a ship, with Britain building well armoured tough ships that could spend long periods of time at sea at the expense of being a bit slower, while France created some fantastic hull forms, working to make their ships pretty good all rounders and gave them the investment to achieve this, while Spain focussed their more limited budget in creating a navy that supported their commercial interests in the new world over fighting, with lightly armoured, not particularly agile but straight line fast ships.

Hope this helps :)

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1 hour ago, Intrepido said:

If the devs needs to fill 3 gaps it is clear that they will add 3 new ship. Most polls have added 2-3 ships and one being the wildcard.

If I ain't mistaken, the first gap "Light frigates 32-36 guns" is meant to fill in the gap between the Renommée and the Surprise.

For that, we need :

  • 9-pdr frigates carrying between 30 and 36 guns
  • or 12-pdr ones carrying 22-28 guns.

The two "Lightest" frigates of this poll are overpowered to do the job :

  • Friderichsværn : 24 x 12pdr + 10 x 4/6-pdr 
  • the Nikolai carries 18-pdr guns

So they're quite of no use to fill in that gap as they are.

Options :

  • removing the QD/fc armament of the Friderichsværn to have a frigate carrying only 24 x 12pdr
  • replacing her by another Danish frigate, say the Christiansborg (with the same armament : 24 x 12pdr)
  • picking up one of the following ships :
  • ePS5aZJ.png
Edited by LeBoiteux

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Im surprised because ships (and their story) like the Princesa and Glorioso showed a different performance in their overall strenght.

Also, John Fincham said  "...debido a que la ciencia de la arquitectura naval recibió mayor estímulo en España que en cualquier otro lugar, los buques de este país estaban adelantados con respecto a los de Europa septentrional en lo que se refiere a su excelente trazado, cuya consecuencia era su mayor andar y otras buenas cualidades. Esta superioridad se demostró en algunos de los navíos españoles capturados en la batalla de Trafalgar".

 

Note: John Fincham (1784-1859) was a naval architect and he was during many years the master shipwright of Portsmouth Dockyards.

Edited by Intrepido

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20 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

Im surprised because ships (and their story) like the Princesa and Glorioso showed a different performance in their overall strenght.

Also, John Fincham said  "...debido a que la ciencia de la arquitectura naval recibió mayor estímulo en España que en cualquier otro lugar, los buques de este país estaban adelantados con respecto a los de Europa septentrional en lo que se refiere a su excelente trazado, cuya consecuencia era su mayor andar y otras buenas cualidades. Esta superioridad se demostró en algunos de los navíos españoles capturados en la batalla de Trafalgar".

I'm not sure why John Finchham would say this, of the Spanish ships captured at Trafalgar only a handful survived the battle and the storm afterwards, so would have been impossible to survey many of them. of the few survivors all but San Ildefonso were hulked, which served as a reception hull should they have been as advanced as Fincham suggests in your quote this would not be the case, I'm also not aware of the British copying any Spanish ship designs during this period as was frequent with the French captures. I may have to look into this a little more.

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15 minutes ago, Fluffy Fishy said:

I'm not sure why John Finchham would say this, of the Spanish ships captured at Trafalgar only a handful survived the battle and the storm afterwards, so would have been impossible to survey many of them. of the few survivors all but San Ildefonso were hulked, which served as a reception hull should they have been as advanced as Fincham suggests in your quote this would not be the case, I'm also not aware of the British copying any Spanish ship designs during this period as was frequent with the French captures. I may have to look into this a little more.

The spanish ship San Jose served in the RN until 1847. 52 years of service.

The Princesa is also interesting. 44 years of service.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Princess_(1740)

 

If the spanish ships were so inferior and dull, why decades of service?

Edited by Intrepido

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thats simple:

Capturing a 1st rate is a enourmous feat. Building these monsters costs a button of money and materials. And when it comes down to building these bohemoths every nation is trying their best to design them with their most advanced methods and building with only the best materials in mind. Its not surprising in any way that 1st rates serve for a very long time. Its a logical consequence to the investment a nation does when comissioning such vessels.

In regards to the 70 gunner:

she was build and captured in a time of change. mid 18th century the typical 74 arose from the dockyards. Bevore this design the 70 gun vessel is more prominent as well as the 64. Late 18th century the brits became more and more picky to what foreign ships they want to take into service. Experience showed that the british vessels are superior in build quality. Reducing the cost and time spent to maintain them.

Interesting thought for example: The brits captured one of the two spanish 80 gunners mid 18th century  

(spanish Fenix) It was discussed and surveyed if this ship design is a good investment for the own fleet. But excessive hogging of these vessels and the resulting maintenance cost required deterred the brits from building their own 80s for a long time. (foudroyand beeing I believe the first british 80 gunned design)

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10 hours ago, Intrepido said:

The spanish ship San Jose served in the RN until 1847. 52 years of service.

The Princesa is also interesting. 44 years of service.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Princess_(1740)

 

If the spanish ships were so inferior and dull, why decades of service?

The Princess had 19 years of active service, she was hulked in 1759. And the San Jose didn´t have a captain from 1814 to 1841 which suggests that she was laid up in ordinary during that time (but, looking at list of XOs, she also may have been used as a stationary flagship).

 

Quote

I'm also not aware of the British copying any Spanish ship designs during this period as was frequent with the French captures. I may have to look into this a little more.

They didn´t. The only non-french design the Brits copied in the 18th century was Hohlenberg´s Christian VII (for one 80-gun ship, the Cambridge, the Black Prince-class and the Jupiter-class)

Edited by Malachi

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Furthering on from what Bungee has said, the royal navy was extremely aware of the Napoleonic French dockyard power, similarly to how the US navy reacted to pearl harbour the French were in a position that they could if they so wanted rebuild their fleet, through having control of not only their own major naval yard facilities in Brest,  Lorient,Toulon and Rochefort, but also controlled the substantial assets of Genoa, Antwerp, Rotterdam, Venice and Amsterdam, this all combined with the numerous supplies Napoleonic France had access to, such as the black forest thanks to their client state the Rhine Confederacy meant that first rates are the exception.

San Josef is actually one of only a handful of first rate ships available at the time, here is a table showing the number of first rates over the Napoleonic period.

First Rates In Service In Ordinary/Repairing Total
1793 1 4 5
1796 6 0 6
1799 4 2 6
1801 4 2 6
1805 6 1 7
1808 4 2 6
1811 5 2 7
1814 7 0 7
1815 0 8 8

As you can see in 1805 the Royal navy had access to 6 first rates, in total with 1 being in repair, as far as I can work out the ships in question are Victory (1765), Royal Sovereign (1786), Royal George (1788), Britannia (1762), Ocean (1805), Hibernia (1804) and Ville de Paris (1795). As you can see from the date, Victory and Britannia were dinosaurs by naval standards, despite this Victory is widely regarded as the the technologically most impressive 1st rate built in the 18th century, showing just how much effort was made to really build the best ship possible with the knowledge available at the time as an example of what Bungee stated.

San Josefs capture is notable for the British mainly because of her having been forced to surrender with relatively little damage, incredibly rare for a first rate in battle due to their sheer size and high ranking within the fleet making them a target. The damage she did take was mostly in the rigging leaving her in a position to be able to be quickly refitted and then going on to serve the Royal Navy well while they repaired some of their other first rates, then going on to continue active service up until the end of the Napoleonic wars. She became a vital part of protecting the repair and refitting program following Trafalgar.

I'd also like to clear up that I don't think Spanish ships are boring as Intrepido has suggested, perhaps it was something that got lost in translation slightly, I certainly hope I haven't offended anyone here as that's not what I set out to do here. I would also like to hope I treat the situation fairly, and hopefully objectively assessing all ships and navies in a well rounded way and that in my own opinion I think Montanes is just one of the less exciting ships in this specific poll. I'd also like to point out that I have thought a lot about what ships I'd personally like to see in the game, having posted a list of suggestions that not only contains Montanes and San Josef but also San Damaso and San Jose, and while I haven't named any 4th rates specifically in the thread there is no doubt a great Spanish ship in that rating bubble. Here is the full thread if you want to have a read.

 

Edited by Fluffy Fishy

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4 hours ago, Intrepido said:

Hm, hm, interesting article. But I think the author makes two mistakes. The first one is omitting the tables for the other Establishment years. These would show a steady and evolutionary increase in dimensions till the year 1745. But just showing the years 1719 and 1745 and then comparing it to the Princessa certainly does look better for the purpose of the article ;)

For further insight into the Establishments, I suggest 'The Work of The Surveyors of the Navy During The Period of The Establishments' by JP Hemingway.
 

Second one is underestimating the importance of the influence of the captured french 74s pierced for 28 guns on the lower deck (Le Terrible, le Magnanime) which set the standard for 74s for the rest of the century. And they too were far larger than their british contemporary counterparts and also could have played a major part in the increase of dimensions in british ships.

Also, I was talking about lines being copied, not dimensions, so my statement about the Christian VII still stands.

Edited by Malachi

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John D. Harbron's "Trafalgar and the Spanish Navy" is a good source for information on the Spanish Navy during the period leading up to the Napoleonic War.  If you don't have the book, I'd suggest picking it up @Intrepido.

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On 02/11/2017 at 10:53 PM, Intrepido said:

If the devs needs to fill 3 gaps it is clear that they will add 3 new ship. Most polls have added 2-3 ships and one being the wildcard.

@Barberouge can you answer our doubts?

The number of ships isn't decided yet.

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1 hour ago, Barberouge said:

The number of ships isn't decided yet.

So, there are possibilities that more than only one ship from this poll will be made into the game.

If we need several ships to fill gaps, the logical decision would be to choose at least 2, one third rate and one superfrigate. Both of them chosen by the community and another ship by the devs.

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11 hours ago, Intrepido said:

So, there are possibilities that more than only one ship from this poll will be made into the game.

If we need several ships to fill gaps, the logical decision would be to choose at least 2, one third rate and one superfrigate. Both of them chosen by the community and another ship by the devs.

Apologies if this is a stupid question, but why do we need another superfrigate? We have a number of heavy frigates already... 

Edited by Arvenski

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Just now, Arvenski said:

Apologies if this is a stupid question, but why do we need another superfrigate? We have a number of heavy frigates already... 

Only trinco and connie are superfrigates (+50 guns).

And trinco is well... Id rather pick a pirate frigate instead.

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On 11/2/2017 at 11:53 AM, Intrepido said:

If the devs needs to fill 3 gaps it is clear that they will add 3 new ship. Most polls have added 2-3 ships and one being the wildcard.

 

I asked this earlier and we were told the poll was just for one ship.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Arvenski said:

Apologies if this is a stupid question, but why do we need another superfrigate? We have a number of heavy frigates already... 

 

59 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

Only trinco and connie are superfrigates (+50 guns).

And trinco is well... Id rather pick a pirate frigate instead.

If you are going to add more super frigates (and at the risk of being a bit boring and predictable of me) you may as well look more into their conception which means Venice and the fregata grossa rated ships, first theorised as a concept in the 1710s with the first ship being launched in 1724 its a substantial shift in naval thought, its also not unlikely these ships played a more important role in the development of the US fleet than is really written about or documented, it being extremely improbable that the US constitutional delegation in Venice wouldn't have been shown these ships during their prolonged stay trying to uncover what created stable governance and society as part of other smaller tasks within the city, especially looking at maritime trade in the face of adversity, as the USA faced trying to trade in British controlled water similarly to the Venetians in Turkish dominated seas and how the nimble fregata grossa supported the mercantile fleet.

Realistically the current crop of heavy frigates isn't bad either, it doesn't really need expanding on that much at least in the short term until we pad out other areas of the game. If you are looking at it from a completionist point of view it makes far more sense to add something the game doesn't currently have which is the trusty old 50 gun ship of the line like famous HMS Leopard, or perhaps something a from the line up of 50s that might be a little more unusual, either way i'd prefer to see something slightly different coming in than another super frigate for now.

Edited by Fluffy Fishy

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1 hour ago, Barbancourt (rownd) said:

I asked this earlier and we were told the poll was just for one ship.

 

 

It seems that devs do not have all decided yet.

--------

About superfrigates we have some interesting ships. Personally, I would choose a ship from a nation which used them more. Spain for example didnt made that kind of ships.

 

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No one wants the Wilhelmina... What's up with you dutchies?

I knew I have said bad things about the wrecker (no history, nothing special except the name (this is funny), not really a third rate but more a second rate like Pavel...) but come on, the Wilhelmina is a good ship of 50 guns, and game lacks ships in that range.

In one thread, Admin asked about the Wilhelmina, so he might be interested in adding her. She only needs 20 votes to surpass the other heavy frigates and we might see her in NA soon!

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8 hours ago, Barbancourt (rownd) said:

If the 3rd Rates weren't in the poll I'm sure Wilhelmina would get lots of votes

But the competition is very fierce in third rates, meanwhile we can easily win the second most voted ship with the Wilhelmina. 

If the second most voted ship is a 50 guns gamelabs will probably do it. On the contrary, not so sure if the same will happen with the wrecker. Come on guys, you know I might have the reason.

One 74 and a 50 guns in the same pool, 2 birds in one shoot!

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1 hour ago, Admiral Horatio Hornblower said:

But the competition is very fierce in third rates, meanwhile we can easily win the second most voted ship with the Wilhelmina. 

If the second most voted ship is a 50 guns gamelabs will probably do it. On the contrary, not so sure if the same will happen with the wrecker. Come on guys, you know I might have the reason.

One 74 and a 50 guns in the same pool, 2 birds in one shoot!

40-gun Venus is as powerful as in-game 50-gun Trincomalee (same broadside weight = about 350 pds) and has already got enough votes to be in good position in this poll. Better vote now for the lightest category of ships of this poll (especially for the Friderichsværn) ;)

Edited by LeBoiteux

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