Jump to content
Game-Labs Forum

Port Battles with limited BR


Recommended Posts

3 minutes ago, Cortez said:

Ok, lets play this through.

Drop your 4th rates at A, send all other ships to another circle.Enemy does the same.Send all 4th rates as reinforcement to your main group,enemy does the same.

Where is the thrill?

Whatever the "first draw" of the most successful fleet with limited BR is going to be, in a week or 2 every clan or nation is going to do the same.

Whatever the ships you can take.And again, everything depends on the wind.

I'll tell you what the thrill would be...

Nobody would bring 10 first rates.  because they would likely be swarmed and outnumbered.   It would no longer make sense to just come in a single class of ship.

Then instead of being a battle of who had the best fleet of first rates, it becomes more how you use tactics.  

Even using your deduction that everyone would bring the same fleet (I think you are wrong), you now have a mix of ships.  Some faster, some slower.

 

"Drop your 4th rates at A, send all other ships to another circle.Enemy does the same.Send all 4th rates as reinforcement to your main group,enemy does the same."

I counter with sending a 4th rate and two 5th rates upwind around B to attack "A",  I leave two firsts in "C" and attack with the rest of the fleet of thirds seconds and a first.  the remaining 4ths snipe sails from upwind.  You need to counter my fast ships attacking your "A" point.  It mixes things up.  Maybe I have a fast third rate going after A.  Maybe I send a bunch sixth rates....you won't know until the battle starts. 

Right now there is a single acceptable fleet to defend.... 25 first rates.  There is two maybe three acceptable attacking fleets 23-25 first rates and 1-2 mortar brigs.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, rediii said:

So in future the problem of screening is not only relevant anymore in 4th rate battles but also in 1st rate battles

which is good imho. it would be sad to have too PB-centric conquest. With importance of screening more players will be involved in OW fun.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Salty Dog on Global said:

I'll tell you what the thrill would be...

Nobody would bring 10 first rates.  because they would likely be swarmed and outnumbered.   It would no longer make sense to just come in a single class of ship.

Then instead of being a battle of who had the best fleet of first rates, it becomes more how you use tactics.  

Even using your deduction that everyone would bring the same fleet (I think you are wrong), you now have a mix of ships.  Some faster, some slower.

 

"Drop your 4th rates at A, send all other ships to another circle.Enemy does the same.Send all 4th rates as reinforcement to your main group,enemy does the same."

I counter with sending a 4th rate and two 5th rates upwind around B to attack "A",  I leave two firsts in "C" and attack with the rest of the fleet of thirds seconds and a first.  the remaining 4ths snipe sails from upwind.  You need to counter my fast ships attacking your "A" point.  It mixes things up.  Maybe I have a fast third rate going after A.  Maybe I send a bunch sixth rates....you won't know until the battle starts. 

Right now there is a single acceptable fleet to defend.... 25 first rates.  There is two maybe three acceptable attacking fleets 23-25 first rates and 1-2 mortar brigs.

 

 

Well i was assuming you would like to see, or at least your suggestion was 1st/2nd/4th rates.Now suddenly there are 5th rates in a battle. Not fair ;)

Despite of portbattle plans in a Forum ;) , if a 5th rate has a 1st in a range for shooting sails, the 1sts have 5th in range as well. I do not think that 5th rates would play a serious role in  PB, just because of their weak masts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Cortez said:

Well i was assuming you would like to see, or at least your suggestion was 1st/2nd/4th rates.Now suddenly there are 5th rates in a battle. Not fair ;)

Despite of portbattle plans in a Forum ;) , if a 5th rate has a 1st in a range for shooting sails, the 1sts have 5th in range as well. I do not think that 5th rates would play a serious role in  PB, just because of their weak masts.

Why exclude certain ships? If they prove to be no good in battle then people will not bring them. Let people try and find out what works and what does not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

Oceans can only sail downwind. Other ships dont have the same sailing profile as Ocean.

Lol.

Wind determines EVERYTHING in a portbattle where in a perfect situation, both sides have "good" admirals/fleet commanders. You can take whatever ships you want, if you are forced to sail 45 degrees upwind to reach at least 1 circle, your 5th, or 4th rates will not help you as well.

Do you understand this?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Intrepido said:

A 5th rate that plays on parallel of a first rate should be court-matialed. The 5th rate have to paly on the first rate stern.

Rofl, you think a PB fleet would leave 1 1st alone, and this 1st would just like somehow allow a  5th to sterncamp?

Dude please. Your imagination is taking over on you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Cortez said:

Lol.

Wind determines EVERYTHING in a portbattle where in a perfect situation, both sides have "good" admirals/fleet commanders. You can take whatever ships you want, if you are forced to sail 45 degrees upwind to reach at least 1 circle, your 5th, or 4th rates will not help you as well.

Do you understand this?

 

Can you put forward your own suggestion for improvement? Is it leave PB's as they are or something else?

Buster (quizzical eye)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Cortez said:

Well i was assuming you would like to see, or at least your suggestion was 1st/2nd/4th rates.Now suddenly there are 5th rates in a battle. Not fair ;)

Despite of portbattle plans in a Forum ;) , if a 5th rate has a 1st in a range for shooting sails, the 1sts have 5th in range as well. I do not think that 5th rates would play a serious role in  PB, just because of their weak masts.

The role of a frigate was not to be part of the line of battle (until the super frigates came along), and normally they wouldn't fire on ships of the line.  

BUT:  If your first rates are using broadsides against small ships, they are not using them against the large ships that would be closer and can actually cause damage.

My point is: this would really mix thing up and make for a million different scenarios instead of  what we have now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Intrepido said:

Yours would make the game to not develop and continue with the same mechanics that lots of people have asked to change for a very long time now.

This has not much with development as such. I am not generally against this BR limitation, however this brings too many problems and issues with it.

And only few here are aware of these problems.

Somehow most are just hyped by the new suggestion, leaving all issues behind, and saing "everything is going to be allright".

It`s not that simple.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Salty Dog on Global said:

The role of a frigate was not to be part of the line of battle (until the super frigates came along), and normally they wouldn't fire on ships of the line.  

BUT:  If your first rates are using broadsides against small ships, they are not using them against the large ships that would be closer and can actually cause damage.

My point is: this would really mix thing up and make for a million different scenarios instead of  what we have now.

Ofc this would mix things up, no doubt.

But...

If the BR limitation, mixed fleets are to be implemented, the whole PB mechanic needs to be changed.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Cortez said:

Ofc this would mix things up, no doubt.

But...

If the BR limitation, mixed fleets are to be implemented, the whole PB mechanic needs to be changed.

I know you are looking for likely issues with the proposed system but to use a quote you gave in the thread regarding clan alliances "Discussion over,and let the testers test."

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I really like these ideas! :)

With Unity 5 are we limited to only 25 ships per side?

If we actually go with BR limits then wouldn't it be possible to have more ships of lower BR without limiting them to 25?

What are the technical limits of the Unity 5 engine?

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

52 minutes ago, Salty Dog on Global said:

I'm thinking something like 1st rate = 2 third Rates=4 fifth rates. 

 

19 minutes ago, Cortez said:

Well i was assuming you would like to see, or at least your suggestion was 1st/2nd/4th rates.Now suddenly there are 5th rates in a battle. Not fair ;)

Despite of portbattle plans in a Forum ;) , if a 5th rate has a 1st in a range for shooting sails, the 1sts have 5th in range as well. I do not think that 5th rates would play a serious role in  PB, just because of their weak masts.

I guess I should expand what ratio I'm thinking, I wasn't excluding any ship types just didn't list them.

A first Rate would be equal to:  1000 points

1 second rate and 1 fourth  rate (750 + 250)= 1000 points

2 third rates (2X500)= 1000 points

4 fourth rates (4X250)= 1000 points

8 fifth rates (8X125)= 1000 points

not sure what the unrated ships would count as....maybe 100?

So if the current "Lineship battles" IMO should be limited to 10,000 to 15,000.  So if the limit is 15K you could bring in:

15 first rates or a fleet of 25  (5 Firsts(5K)  + 6 second (4.5K)+4 thirds (2K)+10 fourths (2.5K)   or any other other combination that totals under 15K 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Latron said:

I'm all for this as long as larger nations don't have some sort of edge that allows them to have a much higher br limit. As it is there's no real benefit to playing a smaller nation so I'd hate to see that gap widen.

I would hope that we can find a balance that a well coordinated fleet of 15 first rates would have a fair fighting chance against a fleet of 25 mixed ship fleet.  I think this would help smaller nations that can't get 25 players on.....but they can get 15.  So they choose the 15 ships that give them 15 K (15 first rates).... maybe some nights they can bring 20 players, so they choose 10 first rates and 4 third rates and 6 fourth rates.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Intrepido said:

It is possible also thanks to battle groups. It can count all the BR in that group and tell you if that battle group is suitable for entering the PB.

Same system as when you see a NPC fleet in the OW. It says you the total BR of that fleet.

 

I encourage you @admin to test it. I think RvR will be much improved.

Only way I can see this working if there was a group called PORT BATTLE GROUP.  That only the clan that owns/attacks the port can make and only those ships can enter the port battle.  You an other wise always have some one not in the group just jump in.  Kinda don't like this cause you can some times have folks fill last minute spots if some one gets tagged cause they fall behind or DC and need to fill the slot.  

3 hours ago, Teutonic said:

that's pretty cool, if clans can create their own BR limits for their port battles that could be the factor in limiting ship and player sizes!

I would more love a rate limit for port battles.  Say we want all 3rd rates only at a port.  They should do that with certain ports make the limits not the bast stepping stone.  Maybe change the BR's a bit.

2 hours ago, admin said:

indeed

Lineship PB = 6500 BR (so you can either take 10 first rates or a mixed fleet)
4th rate PB = 3500 BR (so you can take 5 first rates or a mixed fleet)

 

Are you can change the BR lock limit.  Right now it's.

Shallow:  50-75 BR

Frigates:  75-250 BR

SOL:  75-650 BR

What if we changed some ports so they are only limit to a certain BR like only 3rd rates and not all SOL so it would be a 75-400 BR limit.  Maybe another port is limited to 5th rates and would have a limit of 75-225 (Indefatigable has a 4th rate BR so it will not be allowed in).  Even have shallows with 50-100 BR so the Niagara and Cerberus can get into Port Battles, but this would prob be shallow ports that deep water ships can get into. 

I've have noticed shallows are kinda being added to battles (with shore lines and such).  So maybe in the future we can have some cap circles in battles where you can only get to that cap circle with a shallow drafted ship over something deep drafted.  We have a lot of options out there with some of the ports locations and lay outs that this can be done with I'm sure.

2 hours ago, admin said:

previously a nation could sail to a port battle and enter

now clan sails to port battle and enters. 
clan has full control over fleet composition
if a member does not comply - kick from clan

Still any one on your list can join and lock out, that is why maybe a clan battle group for port battles would be the only way to lock folks out.  I don't want to have to remove certain clans to limit guys form joining our group cause some random guy from there clan not on coms jumps in and locks a ship out that was in the battle group.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

43 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Still any one on your list can join and lock out, that is why maybe a clan battle group for port battles would be the only way to lock folks out.  I don't want to have to remove certain clans to limit guys form joining our group cause some random guy from there clan not on coms jumps in and locks a ship out that was in the battle group.

Then you make sure that the clan of the offending person kicks him from their clan. This way you keep clans and their allies a close knit group rather than a pure numbers game as to who can have the most allies.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Salty Dog on Global said:

The role of a frigate was not to be part of the line of battle (until the super frigates came along), and normally they wouldn't fire on ships of the line.  

BUT:  If your first rates are using broadsides against small ships, they are not using them against the large ships that would be closer and can actually cause damage.

My point is: this would really mix thing up and make for a million different scenarios instead of  what we have now.

This reminds me of Sea Trials battles with mixed fleets - the smaller frigates did exactly that - sailed to cover the rear of the line or to try and flank the enemy line, etc.  Fights in ST were like PB without circles or forts.

Now all we need to ensure mixed fleets would be real shallows and ship drafts.....:)  But hey let's give the BR limits a go.

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, Archaos said:

Then you make sure that the clan of the offending person kicks him from their clan. This way you keep clans and their allies a close knit group rather than a pure numbers game as to who can have the most allies.

indeed. The beauty of clan's pb is that clan has FULL control - complete control on what is the fleet composition. And this gives us the option to establish the limit (or (dreaming aloud) allow the clans to lower the state induced limit (just like with the tax). 

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Salty Dog on Global said:

 

I guess I should expand what ratio I'm thinking, I wasn't excluding any ship types just didn't list them.

A first Rate would be equal to:  1000 points

1 second rate and 1 fourth  rate (750 + 250)= 1000 points

2 third rates (2X500)= 1000 points

4 fourth rates (4X250)= 1000 points

8 fifth rates (8X125)= 1000 points

not sure what the unrated ships would count as....maybe 100?

So if the current "Lineship battles" IMO should be limited to 10,000 to 15,000.  So if the limit is 15K you could bring in:

15 first rates or a fleet of 25  (5 Firsts(5K)  + 6 second (4.5K)+4 thirds (2K)+10 fourths (2.5K)   or any other other combination that totals under 15K 

 

 

Thank you for clarifying this. It might be a math solution defining the BR for the PB fleet, but what about screening ?

Imagine alliances between clans... Bigger,wealthier clans which can provide a fleet with 20 1st rates, as a screening fleet can knock each PB fleet out , before this PB fleet can enter.

So, 20 000 BR easily tag a new shiny combined fleet, and many players are frustrated.

Back to Forum then?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Intrepido said:

Imagine all the people happy to finally sail the ship for which he has fully unlocked the skillbook slots, he has adjusted his perks... and he loves it because of beauty or handling or...

No being limited to sail always rattlesnake/wasa/ocean every port battle.

 

And being able to vary, I mean: In this PB Im going to sail my frigate, in the next one I´ll play with my 74.

 

And imagine this combined with foreign clan alliances.

A possible conversation:

-Player Clan A: Hey guys, we need some people for X port battle.

-Player Clan B: Im sorry but our main port battle fleet is far from you.

-Player Clan A: Dont worry guys, we just need some frigates and we can share ours.

-Player Clan B: ok guys, count with us.

-Random player called Liquicity: I was only around and I heard you may need some players. I have been hunting in that area and I can lend you a hand but I only have my surprise.

-Player Clan A: Good man, you are welcome. We need some good frigates.

that's of course possible in every faction but Spain, since in our faction it will be like that

- hey guys, I'm setting up a port battle! Are you coming?

- filthy traitor!

- what?

- one year ago your team mate entered a port battle in a ship that was not live oak/white oak and screwed up the entire war: we lost two hundred ports and a gozillion ships because of such a crime!

- well, I do not remember.

- I do and I will never ever play with you!

- nor I, since you clearly have an alt char in the swiss faction!

- there is no swiss faction in this game!

- do not try to elude my accusations!

- ok, then hello kitty off!

- you too!

- no battle for this evening, mates!

- ok, que viva Espana!

 

 

Edited by victor
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...