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Proposal for new SAFETY ZONES - Save NAVAL ACTION - bring back PvP !


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15 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

"after the first days of testing of the new "super hardcore" version of the game, the player number fell so low so quickly that Devs introduced of a lot of "casual friendly" features, including safety zones. That seemed to have stabilized a bit the playerbase and seems also to attract some newbie in the game"

One, the numbers didn't fall off in the first few days, that's a lie/misinfo 

Two, show me where "casual friendly" updates stabilized the game. From steam charts the numbers continually dropped of regardless of minor updates.

Uhhhhh ... arguing on the words. Nice ... I like it.

So let's roleplay the Courthouse

.........

I would rather go to the substance, exteemed members of the jury. And the substance is that hardcore patch has proven to be a total failure in just two months. That's the undeniable truth!

Also I call to testify in my favour the devs, that stated on the forum that catering too much to the "OS hardcore PVP crew" was not a wise choice. 

Finally,  as far as the stabilization of population is concerned, I am ingame on PVP EU right now and I can read with my eyes this number: 510 players online. In september I read some like between 250-300.

That seems to me enough to adjudicate the case. And - as the public prosecuter of the carebears' republic - I find the summer hardcore mega patch clearly guilty of an attempt of murdering the game.

But now, I'll leave the bar to my exteemed colleague of the hardcore empire!

 

Edited by victor
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13 minutes ago, victor said:

Uhhhhh ... arguing on the words. Nice ... I like it.

So let's roleplay the Courthouse

.........

I would rather go to the substance, exteemed members of the jury. And the substance is that hardcore patch has proven to be a total failure in just two months. That's the undeniable truth!

Also I call to testify in my favour the devs, that stated on the forum that catering too much to the "OS hardcore PVP crew" was not a wise choice. 

Finally,  as far as the stabilization of population, I am ingame on PVP EU right now and I read this number: 510 players online. In september I read some like between 250-300.

That seems to me enough to adjudicate the case.

 

There's no notable correlation between casual friendly updates and more population.

The only trend you can observe from population numbers over time is that big updates bring large groups of population back, which slowly bleeds off over time until the next major update.

Is it a coincident that the hardcore update brought back the most population? No it was just a big update.

Did the overall easier September 11th bring the game population back up from the all time low post wipe? Yes but now we're only a hundred average players away from that all time low again, regardless of the "casual" update. It was a much smaller update that didn't deliver on all promises.

 

Point is, stop pointing at these minor patches as proof that the game needs to get even easier. The numbers only show the game is just as worse as it was before. Proof that easy/hard fixes doesn't revive playerbase, CONTENT does.

Edited by Slim Jimmerson
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10 minutes ago, victor said:

I would rather go to the substance, exteemed members of the jury. And the substance is that hardcore patch has proven to be a total failure in just two months. That's the undeniable truth!

I wonder how it would have gone if we didn't have the capital camping, initial complaints about "extreme grind", and a better population distribution (timezones) to prevent the nightflip/workflip cycles.    It would also help if somebody had prevented Albion Online from happening, LOL.  Those are the things I remember losing players to.

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32 minutes ago, Farrago said:

Sounds like it's how it should be: biggest profits available for biggest risks. I'm not really sure why you think a trader in OW is helpless. Players have been successfully doing this since the beginning of the game. Should you decide to give it a try, I recommend using ships designed for the purpose, don't overload them, use beneficial perks, plan your route carefully, and keep alert. Your changes will be even better if you sail with a friend. 

Oh dont get me Wrong. I think its a Great Step Forward.

I just think its not exactly going to Promote PvP.

For PvP Promotion it would make more Sense to Involve Free Ports into high Yield Trade Opportunities. So that they become an Hotzone for PvP.

Because they can be Docked at with any Ship. Meaning that a Trader can use a very Fast Ship that can Escape in Battle. Or can use an actual Combat Fitted Ship that can Fight back if Attacked.

 

Because

No Offense. But if as an PvPer you Fail to take down a Trade Ship once you tagged him on OW then your doing something terrible Wrong.

Trade Ships now are Pretty well Armed. (Back then they had no Guns lol) but its still not like they can Outrun or Outgun an Frigate.

Even less when they are Loaded.

 

So there wont be any actual PvP Fights from this.

Fights will mostly be about an Smuggler avoiding Attacks as much as Possible by going long Routes.

 

Now as I said dont get this Wrong. I think this is a Great thing. Most of all because I am a Smuggler lol

But its not really a good way to Promote PvP.

 

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27 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

Point is, stop pointing at these minor patches as proof that the game needs to get even easier. The numbers only show the game is just as worse as it was before. Proof that easy/hard fixes doesn't revive playerbase, CONTENT does.

Point is that I'm not calling at all for the game being easier (basically I like it also as it is now), rather it's you (I mean OS pvpers) that are opening new threads on the forum to ask the devs to get back to the hardcore mode. What I really believe is that getting back on the hardcore path would be simply the fatal blow to a game that now is finally (yet very slowly) recovering. That's why I decided to intervene in each and every thread that tries to get back on that path.

Edited by victor
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12 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

There's no notable correlation between casual friendly updates and more population.

The only trend you can observe from population numbers over time is that big updates bring large groups of population back, which slowly bleeds off over time until the next major update.

Is it a coincident that the hardcore update brought back the most population? No it was just a big update.

Did the overall easier September 11th bring the game population back up from the all time low post wipe? Yes but now we're only a hundred average players away from that all time low again, regardless of the "casual" update. It was a much smaller update that didn't deliver on all promises.

 

Point is, stop pointing at these minor patches as proof that the game needs to get even easier. The numbers only show the game is just as worse as it was before. Proof that easy/hard fixes doesn't revive playerbase, CONTENT does.

 

Actually there is.

No Offense Mate.

But what your missing is extremely Simple.

Population Changes are not Instant after Update. It takes time till People Leave or Come Back.

So while there was an Pretty Steep Spike of People leaving after they removed Reinforcements. Because people who got Ganked almost Instantly left the Game.

 

But other Changes. (Including the one Mentioned here. Yes this has actually been tried already. They had a Patch were they made Reinforcement Zones Open for 90 Minutes and allowing your Nationals to Join. And it Failed Miserably....) towards fixing this kind of stuff again is not Instant.

Many Players that left wont come back even if its changed due to bad memories. Others dont pay attention to the Game and only notice it after Months. Because they aint reading the Patchnotes. People dont magically come back.

And the Massive Player loss has also resulted in Secondary Problems like the breakdown of the Economy.

 

Reversing that Trend took time. Its not like you Announce oh hey we got Safezones again and Poof all the Guys are Back :)

But this Reverse in Trend can be Observed.

The Decline has Slowed down. And with small Fluctuation in between has been nearly reversed now.

You can also see that from the Devs Statements themselves. Which unlike Steam Charts have accurate Data on who logged in etc. Thus actually knowing if People left or came back as well as how many New Players they got.

And them Following this trend and even announcing that they will Focus on adding additional PvE Content Speaks a Pretty Clear Language :)

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The safe zones are fine as they are will help the player base grow. They are really not that big when looked at on the world map. Players should get out and stop Capital camping and noob ganking.

However..... I think one of the main problems with PvP participation is that a lot of people don't actually want to do it.

I like to sail the world looking for targets of opportunity but it has become a risk that many people now would not bother to take up. In fact I am finding it not worth the effort in loss to time for recuperating defeats.

If you lose a ship, maybe 100 to 500k. Mods 50 to 100 marks. Repairs and crew and now cannon....., for normal casual players (job, wife, kids, life,) who spend a couple of hours a night, (the vast majority of gamers) the recap in cost to TIME ratio is too much.

Now before I get the

' I can make 1 million in a hour' argument, most players can't make a million in an hour. Even if they could assembling all the bits to return your loss is so off putting for a 15 min battle.

The effort in acquiring a decent ship with mild mods is considerable and to lose it all in one conflict for most people is enough to put off new potential pvpers.

In addition the 'feck it I will have a go' attitide of noobs has been effictively removed by this loss to recovery ratio.

I like the new in battle repair system but the aquiring of all the stuff for it is cumbersome, laborious and boring and adds nothing to the game but severely hampers deep strike patrols or sailing around the world on a jolly for instance.

If the devs simplified the repair system (acquiring the bits or just using gold like the old system) and added some dura to ships I feel that more players would be more likely to try fighting, rather than covet their best ships and be afraid to lose them in a 15 min fight that will cost them hours to recover from.

The game is definitely getting there no though so the future looks bright lets try to include pve with PvP hard-core and casuals and boom....its a winner.

Edited by Honourable Bluetooth
Typing with ex army fingers....
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The extra players we now have, have nothing to do with safezones ... just look at the pollresults (which some people keep wanting to misrepresent, because apparently polls are a contest to some). The safezones have no drawback (you can get all resources in safety, no reason the sail outside of it), which is a problem that has been pointed out numerous times already.

What brought them (players) back, and seems to keep them a bit longer until they hit the next wall (alliance, which is currently being discussed), is that clans can capture ports.

The arguement about traders being able to defend themselves against a warship, sorry, but that is hilarious ... I wonder, do these people play the game? A loaded trader has very little chance of outrunning and/or winning in battle against a warship, especially after traders got speednerved. Adding guns on your trader even reduces it's chances of escaping (I equip them, so i can atleast put up some kind of a fight, incase some (new) player intercepts me and he makes a mistake). The only thing a trader can do is, as has already been posted, use his head, and be lucky. My traderuns are now even more boring than before, you don't even have to pay attention anymore, no worries=no thrills/satisfaction.

I don't sail superpimped ships in OW, if modules have to rescue/save you, then you have other problems. They do speed up things in PVE, and in even matches they make a difference aswell ... How many even battles have you seen in OW? With or without modules, in OW, we are all like traders, if we get caught at the wrong moment by a stronger/better/skilled opponent, we lose.

 

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Can at least some of us admit that we need a balance of play styles to make a successful game? There just isn't enough of either exclusive PVPers or PVEers to put the Dev's kids through college. At least not yet. We need each other.

PVE focused (but on the PVP server) need safety to kill their AI, conduct trade missions, and craft. New players and casual players need space too. That's why we have reinforcement zones.

However, the AI economy in this game is not developed. All of you traders, crafters, and casuals need consumers. You need a big player base that needs things that only you can provide. The most reliable consumers are those losing ships and goods out in the OW or in RVR.

A OW game that caters exclusively to PVP will fail. A PVP server that offers a PVE only mode -- that is there are no significant advantages to leaving the reinforcement zones -- will fail as well. (For reference see the PVE server.)

I feel like the Devs are on the right track.

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1 hour ago, Sunleader said:

No Offense. But if as an PvPer you Fail to take down a Trade Ship once you tagged him on OW then your doing something terrible Wrong.

Trade Ships now are Pretty well Armed. (Back then they had no Guns lol) but its still not like they can Outrun or Outgun an Frigate.

Even less when they are Loaded.

 

So there wont be any actual PvP Fights from this.

Fights will mostly be about an Smuggler avoiding Attacks as much as Possible by going long Routes.

 

Now as I said dont get this Wrong. I think this is a Great thing. Most of all because I am a Smuggler lol

But its not really a good way to Promote PvP.

 

No offense taken. You are undoubtedly correct. Many victories are dependent on someone not doing something right. That's sort of the essence of the game -- or any competition -- right?

However, there are some absolutely diabolically skilled solo hunters in this game. I am NOT one of them. But we all tend to post on this forum assuming everyone has the exact same history in game as we do.

Here's my experience: I don't know the exact count, but I've had some traders sail by me with impunity. They are in 3 ship Indiamen fleets. I made the mistake of one time tagging such a fleet and barely escaped with my ship. Many other times the trader was able to avoid the tag. The 2 (TWO!) times I have successfully hit traders, I was in a Snow equipped more for grinding than hunting. Once the trader brig was overloaded with no guns. It was more a matter of when I took him than if. The other was a trader that had not equipped stern chasers. If he had stern chasers it's possible I still might have been successful but it would have been more in doubt. If I had been in a heavier ship, he would have probably gotten away. Point is, don't assume everyone you see in OW is an expert. Most of us are not.

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17 hours ago, Farrago said:

No offense taken. You are undoubtedly correct. Many victories are dependent on someone not doing something right. That's sort of the essence of the game -- or any competition -- right?

However, there are some absolutely diabolically skilled solo hunters in this game. I am NOT one of them. But we all tend to post on this forum assuming everyone has the exact same history in game as we do.

Here's my experience: I don't know the exact count, but I've had some traders sail by me with impunity. They are in 3 ship Indiamen fleets. I made the mistake of one time tagging such a fleet and barely escaped with my ship. Many other times the trader was able to avoid the tag. The 2 (TWO!) times I have successfully hit traders, I was in a Snow equipped more for grinding than hunting. Once the trader brig was overloaded with no guns. It was more a matter of when I took him than if. The other was a trader that had not equipped stern chasers. If he had stern chasers it's possible I still might have been successful but it would have been more in doubt. If I had been in a heavier ship, he would have probably gotten away. Point is, don't assume everyone you see in OW is an expert. Most of us are not.

Why would you Attack an Player who got 3 Armed Indiamans with just one Ship lol.

 

And well the Main Problem is that these are not you Playing PvP and Actively Hunting. If your out Grinding and just have a Chance Encounter of course their Chances Rise.

And of course Traders are good at avoiding being Tagged lol. Thats our onky Chance of Survival after all.

 

And I am not.

I merely say that this is not really PvP.

 

You see.

Back in the Day when all Ports had Safezones. We were mostly on a Free Port on the Border.

One Day I was traveling to another Port and noticed a Frigate coming for me. I was in a Frigate as well.

He apparently chased me. So I turned around and Faced him. Was a nice Fight. Albeit I am not very experienced or well Equipped in PvP and lost pretty clearly.

Thats PvP :)

 

Some guy tagging me when I run my Trader Snow and ravaging it with his Renomme is not PvP to me.

Neither is when 5 guys jumped into my Mission with Frigates and killed me.

Neither was it when I was new in the Game just got my Navy Brig and then some guy with a Surprise killed me

 

I dont consider such stuff PvP.

To me this is Sealclubbing and Ganking and should be Prevented at all costs as this is the kind of thing that drives players out of the Game.

People doing this aint PvPers they are Ganker Scum scared from real Fights and thus scared of Safezones because it means that the only People they get to Fight are likely prepared for it.

 

 

Because lets faced it.

If I am prepared for PvP and can actually fight back. I wont be in the Safezone anyways.

There can be Safezones everywhere. If PvP becomes fun rather than frustration people will go out by themselves.

Till that nothing you do will get em out of there. They will leave the Game before they leave the safezone. Because they will rather leave the game and fart in your face than giving you the satisfaction of having fun at their expense :)

 

 (sorry for all the typos. Typing on phone...)

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18 hours ago, Eyesore said:

The extra players we now have, have nothing to do with safezones ... just look at the pollresults (which some people keep wanting to misrepresent, because apparently polls are a contest to some). The safezones have no drawback (you can get all resources in safety, no reason the sail outside of it), which is a problem that has been pointed out numerous times already.

What brought them (players) back, and seems to keep them a bit longer until they hit the next wall (alliance, which is currently being discussed), is that clans can capture ports.

The arguement about traders being able to defend themselves against a warship, sorry, but that is hilarious ... I wonder, do these people play the game? A loaded trader has very little chance of outrunning and/or winning in battle against a warship, especially after traders got speednerved. Adding guns on your trader even reduces it's chances of escaping (I equip them, so i can atleast put up some kind of a fight, incase some (new) player intercepts me and he makes a mistake). The only thing a trader can do is, as has already been posted, use his head, and be lucky. My traderuns are now even more boring than before, you don't even have to pay attention anymore, no worries=no thrills/satisfaction.

I don't sail superpimped ships in OW, if modules have to rescue/save you, then you have other problems. They do speed up things in PVE, and in even matches they make a difference aswell ... How many even battles have you seen in OW? With or without modules, in OW, we are all like traders, if we get caught at the wrong moment by a stronger/better/skilled opponent, we lose.

 

Have you ever heard about LGV hunter? There is/was such thing, hence the removal of the unlocked ship knowledge on that ship. I am new, but, what's your excuse? I wonder do you really play the game or just a forum warrior?

Edited by Robert
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22 minutes ago, Robert said:

Have you ever heard about LGV hunter? There is/was such thing, hence the removal of the unlocked ship knowledge on that ship. I am new, but, what's your excuse? I wonder do you really play the game or just a forum warrior?

I have hunted LGV's with my privateer ... a warfitted (probably boarding) LGV is a trap to catch (solo)hunters, it is not an overloaded trader ;-)

Liq showed another nice example ...

Edited by Eyesore
added Liq's example
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On 10/4/2017 at 4:40 AM, Cortez said:

Well,sometimes you can see Combat News exploding, i don`t know how can someone tell to "bring PvP back".

I guess you have a problem sailing to free ports, maybe you are just too lazy ;)

 

Well Combat News lso counts losses in Port Battles in the reports.. just FYI

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On 10/4/2017 at 10:05 AM, Rebel Witch said:

Im starting to agree that the open world sailing speed needs to be increased , we are in testing so why not try it, yep it may help.

Why not go in the other direction...make zones for PvP...for those players who truly want the PvP experience you pick the ship you want to use and enter the open world and you have the option to teleport to an appropriate zone on the map where you can engage other players with the same intent at will.  Saves the many hours constantly searching for others to attack and you could also include options for PvP fleets going out in search of opponents.  May be worth a try.

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Just now, CaptainCaveMan said:

Why not go in the other direction...make zones for PvP...for those players who truly want the PvP experience you pick the ship you want to use and enter the open world and you have the option to teleport to an appropriate zone on the map where you can engage other players with the same intent at will.  Saves the many hours constantly searching for others to attack and you could also include options for PvP fleets going out in search of opponents.  May be worth a try.

PVP zones-yes

teleport-no

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Safe zones allow players like me to play and support my PVP friends as a casual player.  I do not like PVP anymore.  I don't have time to spend a half our of a fight just running away from a ganker.  I just want to tool around and kill ai stuff, do some trading, and run some missions with my friends.  Take those safe zones away and you'll lose me and half my friends with me who feel the same.  Those safe zones allow for both PVP and non PVPer's to coexist on one server.  

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12 hours ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

PVP zones-yes

teleport-no

The only reason that I suggest the teleport option is because I hear from others on the forum that they don't want to spend hours sailing around looking for PvP....if you allow a teleport into a PvP zone it may give the casual PvP'r the incentive of getting into the action quicker.  Does it take away the "ganking"...yes!!!  When 10 pirates jump a basic cutter...how do you split up the 10 xp...LMAo

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