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Foreign clan alliances

clan alliances  

201 members have voted

  1. 1. Allow foreign clan entry rights to Port battles

    • Yes
      152
    • No.
      50


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1 minute ago, Peter Goldman said:

That's a feature. What if your clan members got paid to leave PB? How do you want to punish them? Expell. How to punish mercenaries? Never hire/pay them again. It's not game design issue, it's problem who do you take as friends/allies. Same can happen within nation with "friendly" clan.

Well, you might be right.

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If we do this we should also add the other side of the coin and add in-nation clan wars.

If a clan in your nation allies with the clan of an enemy nation you need to have the option fight them

Edited by Slim Jimmerson
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7 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

If we do this we should also add the other side of the coin and add in-nation clan wars.

If a clan in your nation allies with the clan of an enemy nation you need to have the option fight them

I would add that as a pirate mechanic only

  • Like 7

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Great idea can help smaller nations a lot and for bigger its also nice because they can help smaller and split their force and find fights that are not completly one sided.

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15 minutes ago, rediii said:

I would add that as a pirate mechanic only

Well then that goes against the sandbox.

A big clan on your nation allies with enemy nations clan. They then let the enemy clan attack members of your nation and they join the battles on the their side to kill your players. They set max tax to all their held ports, and take your clans off friendly

They now are affectively a part of the enemy clan, they hold your nations ports, tax you out, help kill your members and there isn't much you can do about it.

Edited by Slim Jimmerson
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1 hour ago, admin said:

Captains

please comment on the alliances with clans of foreign nations (for port battle entry rights only).

For example - you can add a clan from a foreign nation to your friend list - allowing them to help you in port battles. 

I like this idea. Would it be possible to make your allied clans from other nations able to enter a port owned by your clan even if it is not available to all?

Edited by Captain Lust

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2 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

Well then that goes against the sandbox. A big clan on your nation allies with enemy nations clan. They then let the enemy clan attack members of your nation and they join they battles on the their side to kill your players. They set max tax to all their help ports, and take your clan off friendly

They now affectively are a part of the enemy clan, they hold your nations ports, tax you out, help kill your members and there isn't much you can do about it.

If you gave this to Pirates only but removed their ability to hold ports it would be fine? 

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11 minutes ago, Custard said:

If you gave this to Pirates only but removed their ability to hold ports it would be fine? 

You mean if only pirates could war other pirate clans, or only pirates can be made foreign allies to act as mercenaries for nations? No neither would really work on their own. Nations need some way to ally and friendly clans is the best way. But with allies with enemies you need enemies with allies or else you're tipping the balance of the sandbox which is never good.

Pirates need an overhaul, more than can be put into a single gameplay mechanic

Edited by Slim Jimmerson
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Looking forward to seeing mercenary clans and more fluid semi-alliance arrangements.

The fluidity is handled, making it player-based rather than the terribly static scenario we had with the voting system (where the entire nation was chucked in as one, and it would take weeks if not months to change things up). What remains is whether or not we need a safeguard to make sure that it doesn't turn into a 'half the server vs other half of the server' scenario.

Edited by Aegir
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I voted NO. If they are going down this route then they may as well do away with nations and introduce pure clan warfare where individual clans can make alliances.

This system as proposed will just be too messy. For example a British clan is attacking a Danish clan port, but they are friendly with a certain Danish clan and invite them to the battle. If the friendly Danish clan can only enter to assist in the port battle, what about the screening action? How would the friendly Danish clan be treated outside of the port battle, would they be dragged into a battle on the Danish or British side? What if you have friendly clans from multiple nations and invite them all to the battle? The whole thing starts getting a bit messy.

I think a system with the current nation safe zones being the only national regions and the rest up for grabs by individual clans. The clans may display the flag of the nation they started in (this could also be changed to allow individual company flags) but in reality they are all individual companies and can set any other clans as neutral, friendly or enemy. The ports they capture should only be able to be set to either friendly or neutral as no one would deliberately allow their port to be open to an enemy. To allow for such a system it would be better to allow for smaller port battles for some ports to cater for smaller clans, port battle sizes could be graded to the importance of the ports.

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6 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

You mean if only pirates could war other pirate clans, or only pirates can be made foreign allies to act as mercenaries for nations? No neither would really work on their own. Nations need some way to ally and friendly clans is the best way. But with allies with enemies you need enemies with allies or else you're tipping the balance of the sandbox which is never good.

Pirates need an overhaul, more than can be put into a single gameplay mechanic

Nations could be allies ONLY if 1 nation has 1 ally at the time. Last time voting for allies made two huge blocks fighting epic, neverending war, which led to nothing.

This feature should just ALLOW CLANS from ANY nation to be FRIENDLY to your clan, and participate in a Conquest. Which is a good thing, considering the overwhelming force of Sweden at PvP EU.

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7 minutes ago, Aegir said:

half the server vs other half of the server

As long as both sides are well balanced this sounds good to me, tho i agree having more parties makes things more interesting. The 50/50 split could be way easier to balance...

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25 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

Well then that goes against the sandbox.

A big clan on your nation allies with enemy nations clan. They then let the enemy clan attack members of your nation and they join the battles on the their side to kill your players. They set max tax to all their held ports, and take your clans off friendly

They now are affectively a part of the enemy clan, they hold your nations ports, tax you out, help kill your members and there isn't much you can do about it.

I understand the problem but somehow dont like fights in the same nation

Just now, Cortez said:

Nations could be allies ONLY if 1 nation has 1 ally at the time. Last time voting for allies made two huge blocks fighting epic, neverending war, which led to nothing.

This feature should just ALLOW CLANS from ANY nation to be FRIENDLY to your clan, and participate in a Conquest. Which is a good thing, considering the overwhelming force of Sweden at PvP EU.

This overwhelming force was 30 players in nassau yesterday, 30 in cartagena aswell as santiago and puerto escondido lol

But I see a block against sweden forming. Lrts have some nice battles. :) Cant wait for the mechanic to be implemented!

Couldnt say that since a long time but: I'm hyped!

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@admin

I have a question.

What happend if

  • Clan A (FR) attack port that has ownner clan B (GB). Clan B add clan A to friendlist.
  • Clan A (FR) see that clan B (GB) do hostility mission. Clan A add clan B to friendlist.

I don't want see this feature.

I want contracts for defend or attack another ports.

Edited by qw569
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15 minutes ago, qw569 said:

@admin

I have a question.

What happend if

  • Clan A (FR) attack port that has ownner clan B (GB). Clan B add clan A to friendlist.
  • Clan A (FR) see that clan B (GB) do hostility mission. Clan A add clan B to friendlist.

Clan friend list would not affect hostility I believe. Only who can enter PBs. Meaning that the only thing that would happen in the first scenario is that Clan A would be able to join the PB they set on either side.

@Archaos makes some very valid points though. This is the real headache.

If it was implemented we would probably be best off just removing screening game-play. Alternatively one needs to be able to form battlegroups with friendly clans in other nations. And as long as you are in a battle group with nationals of another nation you need to be able to engage in OW players from your own nation. Last alternative would be make a zone around PBs where everything is free-for-all and anyone can tag anyone, even same-nation nationals.

I'd be interested to see an elegant solution to this problem. I'm not sure there can be one. 

If no solution is presented there is only a matter of time before the following scenario becomes a reality:

Clan A has a beef with Clan B from their own nation.

Clan A moves their 3 alts to another nation, makes a clan there and in the middle of the night when nobody is there to see clan A's alts grind hostility for Clan B's port. 

Clan A's alt clan sets Clan A on their friendlist. 

Clan B shows up with 25 ships for the PB and 25 ships to screen. 

Clan A sails right past the screening, with no chance of getting tagged, and enters the PB that was set by Clan A's alt clan. Not a single player from Clan A's alt clan shows up to the attack. The defending screeners from Clan B sit there and can do nothing as the clan from their own nation sails past them and enters on the hostile side in a PB against them.

Edited by Anolytic
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22 minutes ago, Cortez said:

This feature should just ALLOW CLANS from ANY nation to be FRIENDLY to your clan, and participate in a Conquest.

This is the root of the problem I'm trying to describe.

Hypothetically, imagine you are in GB and the nation consist of you and one other clan, your clan is clan A their clan is clan B

Clan B decides to ally with a US clan. Clan B decides they like the US more than they like GB.

Clan B tells you that they're working for US now, and will be giving them all of their half of GB ports in the next few weeks.

Unless you're able to directly attack Clan B and regain control of ports from them they can lock you out of half the nations ports, give them to your enemies, and even go so far as directly kill you in battle, and you can't retaliate at all on your own terms without breaking the rules.

There HAS to be a counter balance to allies with enemies

The Occam's razor way to do it without gross micromanaging of every little thing in the game is enemies with allies

 

Edited by Slim Jimmerson
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1 hour ago, rediii said:

They gained trust on the enemy side and betrayed them this way. Enemy side has to put trust into them and make the clan a friend first. Happened in history several times and should be also possible in this sandbox game. Things like this make history

True. Although i'm prety sure this will be brought up again at some point, just mark my words :)

I like the possibility for some back stabbing, and some last minute surprises. I can allready imagine clans spying eachother.

But like you said, can for example swedes fight swedes? Looks kinda hard to me if you can't tag em in OW, but they can fight you in the PB?
After the battle that clan will be untouchable by you and can just do its thing as it has always done. So I'm assuming that won't be possible.

 

Edited by The Spud
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32 minutes ago, Archaos said:

This system as proposed will just be too messy. For example a British clan is attacking a Danish clan port, but they are friendly with a certain Danish clan and invite them to the battle. If the friendly Danish clan can only enter to assist in the port battle, what about the screening action? How would the friendly Danish clan be treated outside of the port battle, would they be dragged into a battle on the Danish or British side? What if you have friendly clans from multiple nations and invite them all to the battle? The whole thing starts getting a bit messy.

Not really.

" Well if you were invited by both clans you will be able to join both sides. I am sure once it happens once another side will no longer add you to friends. " (quoting admin)

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1 hour ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

If we do this we should also add the other side of the coin and add in-nation clan wars.

If a clan in your nation allies with the clan of an enemy nation you need to have the option fight them

Agreed.

This has to be done in order for it to work. Slim has said it earlier but if other clans in the same nation do not like the decision of the clan, well screw you, you can't do anything about it.

There needs to be a way for clans who do not agree with other clans in a nation to fight back. Those who think this should only be a pirate mechanic are not understanding the real issue here.

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5 minutes ago, Cortez said:

Not really.

" Well if you were invited by both clans you will be able to join both sides. I am sure once it happens once another side will no longer add you to friends. " (quoting admin)

The problem that @Archaos is pointing at though, is that very quickly it will be easier to fight any war using mercenaries (/alts) from the nation you are attacking, than actually fighting the war yourself. Because those mercenaries will be impossible to screen out and impossible to revenge against as in open world they will be protected by their same nation status.

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4 minutes ago, Cortez said:

Not really.

" Well if you were invited by both clans you will be able to join both sides. I am sure once it happens once another side will no longer add you to friends. " (quoting admin)

I was not meaning an invite by both clans. I meant that outside the port battle, how would the Danish clan that was friendly to the British clan be treated as they approached the Danish port to be attacked. Would they be dragged into a screening battle on the side of the Danes or Brits? Would they be able to screen for the Brits against other Danish clans? What indicator do other Danes get to show the clan in question is hostile to them? Whats to stop the Brits setting up a port battle that is only attended by the friendly Danish clan so they cannot be screened out.

The whole system raises a lot of questions and hence why I say it would be a messy system. These questions have only considered 2 nations and once you throw more nations into the mix with different inter clan relations and the confusion becomes exponential.

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