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vazco

PvP desperately needs fixing

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TLDR: we need a system that will allow for any player to initiate PvP "action/event" at any time, which will gather people for battle within 45-60 minutes, and which will have influence on OW. PvP after the patch is hard to get.

Full explanation of the problem:

Since initial interest after a new patch starts to fade, there are days when it's impossible to get anyone to leave the port in search for PvP. It's impossible to provoke a fight around protected areas. Noone leaves protected areas, including traders. It's impossible to find other people wanting PvP in a vast space of non-protected areas.

Proposed solution:

We need a tool that will help people wanting PvP to find each other, best in approx. 45-60 minutes from the start of action. It needs to influence OW, in order to gather defenders as well. Influence on OW gives some extra meaning to such events.

We can archieve this through a system similar to old flags, which instead of capturing ports, would lower tax income of that port, and increase tax income of a port from which the flag was bought. It could also move drop of resources from raided port to a port where flag was bought, as a zero-sum game, to avoid exploits.

Since we have different size of groups that are interested in PvP, we could allow for players to buy different size flag missions - eg. for 5, 15 and 20 players. Those could influence OW in different ways.

Those missions can have different composition of ships as well (eg. one can require a battle group consisting of 1 3'rd rate and rest 4'th rates, etc.)

For those that don't know old flag system:

To capture a port, you had to buy a flag in your port, and had 1 hour to get to enemy port. Once you got there, a PB was opened, and you had some time to join with your fleet. This included two tactics for defender - either intercept a flag, or defend in battle.

The system I propose here would be different in a few ways:

  • it wouldn't result in PB, just an OW "staged" battle
  • defenders should have some minimal time to prepare for battle. Depending on battle numbers, this time could differ


Result:

Implementing this will finally allow us to create a request for PvP fight on demand. Different "flag" types will create variety of ship sizes in even fights, which we didn't have since the start of the game. Embeding this in OW deeper would give more meaning to those events. In my opinion this is a missing piece to make sure NA is really popular.

 

Look at what's great in your game, and empower it. Those engaging fights, and their influence on OW,  are what's best in your game.

Edited by vazco
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An improvement to this system could be that a defender would get money which attacker put into the fight in case they would defend successfully.

To avoid "fake events", an attacker could pay much more for an event, which would be refunded once he gets into a fight.

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I agree, right now NA needs flags back to create small group pvp. This creates content for smaller clans in for example 8vs8 battles around a port to steal some goods or taxmoney from the port.

Naval action lacks of a mechanic for getting together every evening and doing something fun. Flagmechanic provided that, hostility doesnt.

Hkstility is generated realy quickly (less grind) or for a long time (like finding fleets old sywtem). The first is more fun because its less frustrating than searching fleets but its hard for the defender to notice it in time and organize so fast and then find the missions enemys are in (missions still too far away from targetports tested yesterday)

We need a mechanic so defenders notice hostilitygeneration fast, makes missions closer to port and a raidingmechanic with flags for small group content. Right now RvR is based around groups of 25 which is hard to get together

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Just to put things into perspective. We are playing RvR with a fleet of 5 to 8.

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19 minutes ago, Skully said:

Just to put things into perspective. We are playing RvR with a fleet of 5 to 8.

yes and too many are worried about 6-9 showing up and beating them. It seems to me that the EU server with all of its extra players are struggling to be able to find other OW / RVR pvp'ers which seems alien to us on global where we often have less than 100 online and are damn sure we could find a fight if we put our minds to it. The French were doing good OW pvp before map reset and I believe they switched servers but it seems more players like that are needed.

 

But does it come down to a smaller group only wanting to face a smaller group ? Seems like Legends to me .. ?

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Vizzini said:

The French were doing good OW pvp before map reset and I believe they switched servers but it seems more players like that are needed.

A lot of the French have gotten hooked on other games prior to the patch and haven't been on as much.  I think WO got hooked on ARK and most NA Purge [myself included :( ] have gotten hooked on Conan Exiles. Personally, I still have to sail back to the French area bc I ran out of rig repairs and no one filled my buy order. And had gone broke prior to the patch so could not afford the sell order where I was. Once I get there, get more repairs, and get money I plan to come back towards the map center. 

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*Insert "wait for legends" answer*

I kinda agree. We now got a safezone for players to do riskfree pve as much as they want. But I think we also need a CONSTANT HotSpot zone (not port battles where everything is crowded with 50-100 players for a short time) where players can expect to meet enemy players.

I loved the old pvp event zone, even though at times it felt lile being the only ship in the zone.

RvR is being focussed on a 'little' bit too much in this patch, given the majority of players isnt interested in it and hasnt done a single PB (data provided by devs a while ago).

Whats against the idea of bringing back a pvp event zone and possible rewards such as paints? Alts? Well let alt killers have their fun in paintef ships and punish hard if caught :)

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Well, the reinforcements zones stifled what little PvP that remained, which was the involuntary one, so the real question is why it's so undesirable for PvPers to fight other PvPers in the OW.

Chucking zones, events and rewards at people mostly just addresses the symptoms of it, it just tries to goad people into doing it, and those who thought it was because of ship loss and risk have no excuses anymore - while capturing ships as an objective loses its meaning yet again.

Gonna wait for the multi-repairs to go away or just wait for Legends to spend less than an evening to find a fight.

Edited by Aegir

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12 hours ago, Skully said:

Just to put things into perspective. We are playing RvR with a fleet of 5 to 8.

No, you are playing RvE. You wouldn't stand a chance in a fleet of 5 to 8 in RvR.

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6 hours ago, vazco said:

No, you are playing RvE. You wouldn't stand a chance in a fleet of 5 to 8 in RvR.

You should ask @Anne Wildcat how the French waters feel without WO around anymore.

Or ask @Jeheil how many ships we need to put up a fight.

As for RvE I consider it silly, but folks seem to like it.

PS. @Anne Wildcat come to Les Cayes and talk to @Sir Texas Sir. He should have information on US timed fights. I'll supply all the repairs needed.

Edited by Skully

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On 9/20/2017 at 3:59 AM, Vizzini said:

yes and too many are worried about 6-9 showing up and beating them.

[snip]

But does it come down to a smaller group only wanting to face a smaller group ? Seems like Legends to me .. ?

I know this idea isn't popular but when I read comments like this I keep coming back to the notion that the real problem is people don't want to lose their ship or their ports. Perhaps Legends is the answer to that.  In NA itself, if you changed ports to being temporarily occupied and pillaged (to some degree but not 100%) you'd have something much more like what was really going on 200+ years ago. The Dev's could bring back the Nations.  Perhaps a wrinkle could be an extremely expensive Army unit used to permanently occupy a port... something so expensive it would be seen only once or month. Territories could still change but at a very, very slow rate.

As for ships, make the permits expensive and the building of them dirt cheap.  The objective here is once a player has the rights to build a really good ship he can replace a lost ship the same evening -- or a day or two later.  You want to minimize as much as possible the reservation people have about joining a battle and allowing them to replace their losses at a really trivial expense is one way to do that.

Edited by Genma Saotome

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The post 11.0 Naval Action world is far more focused on RVR than PVP. That just seems to be the nature of the beast and the direction the developers want, regardless of whether players agree or not. I'm beginning to think that there shouldn't be RVR at all. If this truly claims to be an accurate historical naval combat game (as so many zealots cry out: "we want accuracy!") then it shouldn't have territory change hands at all, since it major ownership changes didn't happen during the time period apart from major campaigns.

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1 hour ago, Sir R. Calder of Southwick said:

The post 11.0 Naval Action world is far more focused on RVR than PVP. That just seems to be the nature of the beast and the direction the developers want, regardless of whether players agree or not. I'm beginning to think that there shouldn't be RVR at all. If this truly claims to be an accurate historical naval combat game (as so many zealots cry out: "we want accuracy!") then it shouldn't have territory change hands at all, since it major ownership changes didn't happen during the time period apart from major campaigns.

There use to be purpose in OW pvp. You could sailing out with a PB sized fleet and blockade a capital and hit a huge blow to your enemies. Or stealthily stock lone ships coming in and out.  Now there's no room for that anymore. We've been forced to PB or not get fights.

The thing is though is that the receiving nation was never dealt one unfairly. They could just as easily send out a counter force to defend their own waters. Now for some reason we have AI do it for us, even less fights. New guys don't have to communicate, don't have to coordinate with the nation to track down and destroy the enemies. They can just rely on calling in a few 1st rates to scare them off and that's it.

We've taken the danger out of OW and now there is no thrill. It's just casual now, a PVE snoozefest 

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2 hours ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

There use to be purpose in OW pvp. You could sailing out with a PB sized fleet and blockade a capital and hit a huge blow to your enemies. Or stealthily stock lone ships coming in and out.  Now there's no room for that anymore. We've been forced to PB or not get fights.

The thing is though is that the receiving nation was never dealt one unfairly. They could just as easily send out a counter force to defend their own waters. Now for some reason we have AI do it for us, even less fights. New guys don't have to communicate, don't have to coordinate with the nation to track down and destroy the enemies. They can just rely on calling in a few 1st rates to scare them off and that's it.

We've taken the danger out of OW and now there is no thrill. It's just casual now, a PVE snoozefest 

 

I don't 100% agree with you, but I do on most points.

 

I noticed that the British nation on PVP EU, for example, didn't even attempt to intercept some Swedish PB fleets and would rather fight in the PB itself. So gone, also, is any semblance of strategy. While I think the change to single durability ships isn't necessarily bad in itself, that has also had the effect of making people far more reluctant to fight. Yes it is more realistic, but the Devs (despite numerous suggestions from many, including myself) have not incorporated any mechanism to simulate the realism of indecisive battles and the appropriate rewards.


For example, gold and XP rewards for damage were removed, allegedly because of abuse by a small number of players. Rather than punish, the entire mechanic was removed so if you inflict, say, crippling damage on three enemy Constitutions in a frigate, but in the end are sunk, you get nothing despite your heroic yet ultimately futile defense.

 

To take that scenario a step further, many actions of the time were indecisive and what made a battle like Trafalgar such a monumental victory was the rarity of such a crushing defeat. Far more frequent were battles like that of my namesake, Sir Robert Calder, who at Finisterre in July 1805 fought 20 French and Spanish ships with 15 of his own. In very light wind and dense fog, he captured two. St. Vincent and the Glorious First of June were similarly fought: only about a quarter of the losing fleet's ships were lost.

 

So to counter the lack of durability, and yet inspire captains to be more eager and willing for PVP there should be a greater relationship to historical accuracy. Now, the only reason to PVP is simply because you enjoy it - but as many on this thread have pointed out, it's not exactly easy to come by.

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On 20.9.2017 at 1:43 PM, Liq said:

Well let alt killers have their fun in paintef ships and punish hard if caught

Wouldn't even mind tbh... they did pay twice for the game after all.... I hate the current pvp reward alt abuse way more, where they actually gain direct advantages in combat through it aka pay2win. And even if they punished some people that did it too obvious... how can you really prove someone is abusing if he doesn't go about it in full retard mode. Too easy to cheese the system and only with paints it wouldn't matter at all...

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On 9/20/2017 at 3:28 AM, Skully said:

Just to put things into perspective. We are playing RvR with a fleet of 5 to 8.

And? Remember when we used to Capture 3-4 Ports a Night with 4 or 5 Guys with the old Flag system?

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Told you a few Months ago already.

PvP Community is always about 5-10% of PvE Community.

Since PvE Community effectively stopped existing in this Game.

The PvP Population is slowly but surely following.

 

Just Accept that PvP is dead get over with it and move on.

Maybe then we get a proper Game with Content out of this.

 

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8 hours ago, Sunleader said:

Told you a few Months ago already.

PvP Community is always about 5-10% of PvE Community.

Since PvE Community effectively stopped existing in this Game.

The PvP Population is slowly but surely following.

 

Just Accept that PvP is dead get over with it and move on.

Maybe then we get a proper Game with Content out of this.

That is so false. 100% of the PVP server are PVPers one way or another. Hardly anyone wants to exclusively PVE because its mind numbingly boring, hence the PVE server.

PVE will never be big in this game.

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The problem we have is the greenzones! Players have such a large area to pve (do missions) they have no reason to step outside into the pvp world... 

Money from missions is nuts. 

Pvp needs better rewards, when I mean better Iean a wider range of rewards. Eg pen mods, speed, boarding etc etc...

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9 minutes ago, monk33y said:

The problem we have is the greenzones! Players have such a large area to pve (do missions) they have no reason to step outside into the pvp world... 

Money from missions is nuts. 

Pvp needs better rewards, when I mean better Iean a wider range of rewards. Eg pen mods, speed, boarding etc etc...

If you want to pve, you don't want to do pvp. Therfore greenzones are the right thing, obviously you can't understand that if you think that pvp is to jump helpless players in their pve mission. 

 

The right way would be to give some kind of reward to leave the greenzones and to do there your battles. And with rewards I don't mean upgrades to stack speed and thickness to an unlimited amount as it is right now 

Edited by Eleven

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Just now, Eleven said:

If you want to pve, you don't want to do pvp.

Then pull a mission from capital. You don't use 30 different ports to PVE.

Edited by Slim Jimmerson

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16 minutes ago, Eleven said:

If you want to pve, you don't want to do pvp. Therfore greenzones are the right thing, obviously you can't understand that if you think that pvp is to jump helpless players in their pve mission. 

 

The right way would be to give some kind of reward to leave the greenzones and to do there your battles. And with rewards I don't mean upgrades to stack speed and thickness to an unlimited amount as it is right now 

Unless I'm mistaken to do missions don't you just need one port and one greenzone!! Do you mean to tell me that we now have missions to go to 5 other ports before joining a mission!! Bugger me I'll try a pve mission tonight after work....

Also Russain, Prussian and Polish nations don't have redicous number of greenzones. They don't have any greenzones and they are doing fine!!

Edited by monk33y

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