Tax

[Guest]

My clanmate and me tried trading a symbolic amount just to see if the player2player transaction would be taxed.

It didn't but the patch notes states that private money transactions is getting taxed like the rest. I'm thinking it's a bug?

[Kloothommel]

I think it will only tax marketplace transactions. Selling to or buying from Ai or player to player via contracts.

[admin]

ah actually this feature did not get in. 

it was bugged and the amount of time to fix it was too high to let the patch wait for it. We are not sure now if we should tax private trade.

[George Washington]

21 minutes ago, admin said:

ah actually this feature did not get in. 

it was bugged and the amount of time to fix it was too high to let the patch wait for it. We are not sure now if we should tax private trade.

0% for allies (Player to Player of same nation), 15% for out of Nation private trades. Do not tax players who trade with their same nation friends, but tax those who do Nation to Nation trades. Keep product inside Country and only push it through the market. 

Edited September 15, 2017 by George Washington

[Sven Silberbart]

2 hours ago, admin said:

ah actually this feature did not get in. 

it was bugged and the amount of time to fix it was too high to let the patch wait for it. We are not sure now if we should tax private trade.

 

1 hour ago, George Washington said:

0% for allies (Player to Player of same nation), 15% for out of Nation private trades. Do not tax players who trade with their same nation friends, but tax those who do Nation to Nation trades. Keep product inside Country and only push it through the market. 

 

Why not tax all private trades like 10 % as default and 25% as nation to other nation trade

I would support that

 

[admin]

35 minutes ago, Sven Silberbart said:

 

 

Why not tax all private trades like 10 % as default and 25% as nation to other nation trade

I would support that

 

the problem is when there is no money involved - we don't have a real monetary base to tax because if we use base price then its a fake feature. If we tax in resources then some resources become untradeable. (like exchanging santisima for 2 bucs) (what do we take as tax)

[Sven Silberbart]

Yeah i see, thats a bit more difficult

[Skully]

15 minutes ago, Peter Goldman said:

Everything can have calculated value as production cost, besides combat amd victory marks (they cannot be produced and they act almost like a second currency).

Combat marks is the first currency.  http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/22624-royal-bank-of-scotland/

And production of cost does not equal market value, so it's an interesting proposition. http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/22727-the-definitive-pricing-guide-september-1817/

[admin]

6 minutes ago, Skully said:

Combat marks is the first currency.  http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/22624-royal-bank-of-scotland/

And production of cost does not equal market value, so it's an interesting proposition. http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/22727-the-definitive-pricing-guide-september-1817/

it still a problem if determining the base for tax
santi can cost 10 mln but the base price is just 400k. 

[George Washington]

1 hour ago, admin said:

the problem is when there is no money involved - we don't have a real monetary base to tax because if we use base price then its a fake feature. If we tax in resources then some resources become untradeable. (like exchanging santisima for 2 bucs) (what do we take as tax)

Once again, we can learn some things from potbs. They banned private trade to other Nations for a reason, but it was still possible. Nation to nation trade was possible with huge effect on player reputation. 1-2 trades per day would be ok, but over 20 trades would result in -5000 Rep (chat ban, marked as traitor and other restrictions). Question is why they restricted such private trades? 

1. Alts in multiple Nations easily moving goods. 

2. Goods do not stay in 1 Nation and never appear on the market.

3. It was too easy and there was no challenge. 

 

Edited September 15, 2017 by George Washington

[George Washington]

1 hour ago, Sven Silberbart said:

 

 

Why not tax all private trades like 10 % as default and 25% as nation to other nation trade

I would support that

 

My tax proposal.

Instead of tax use fee and limit private trades per day. 

Same nation private trades are Free. Private trade outside nation should be taxed at fixed Fee rate (50 000) and when trading with players who are at war tax should be at least (200 000). So, here we have 200 000 or in other words 1 hour of grinding can still pay for my important trade, but it will not abuse the system and greatly limit my trade actions to the Enemy. In addition Devs must include limit of 2 items per trade when trading to Enemy. 

Now, the most important part. 1 same nation private trade per hour. 24 trades per day with no limit to quantity. Nation to outside nation -50% to trade quantity or how many squares player can use in trade window. Nation to Enemy trade will have only 2 item slots in trade window. 

Friendly --> Friendly (0 db) 24 Trades per day with no trade window limit. Same nation only.

Friendly --> Outside Neutral Nation (50 000 db/ trade) 24 Trades per day with -50% less slots in trade window. 

Friendly --> Enemy (200 000 db/ trade) 24 Trades per day with only 2 item slots in trade window.

*trade window limit - number of slots where you drag and drop items. 

*trades recover at 1 trade per hour.

What do you think Devs? Is this too complex?

Edited September 15, 2017 by George Washington

[Macjimm]

On 9/14/2017 at 10:09 AM, Bearwall said:

My clanmate and me tried trading a symbolic amount just to see if the player2player transaction would be taxed.  It didn't but the patch notes states that private money transactions is getting taxed like the rest. I'm thinking it's a bug?

I truly hope that this is NOT a bug.  We need a black market.  Taxes would still apply to all contracts and to transactions within the shops.  I would still be paying lots of tax but on occasion could try and cheat the tax man with an under the table purchase or sale.  There could be significant risk to making trades without declaring it to the port authority whereby if we are caught we loose our goods, pay a monetary  penalty and possibly loose our ship(s), but to impose some sort of magical big brother tax on personal transactions seems too gamey.  But I suppose that may be the price we have to pay in an MMO where exploits are possible and competitive balance is always the priority.

The current taxes are outrageous.  Grumble. Rant.  My recent resource trading within the shops was an eyeopener.  I shipped about 3500 tons of mixed goods and made a little over $110k.  But I paid almost $55,000 in taxes.  Outrageous.  Who could even imagine such an exorbitant demand.

 

[Jeheil]

I would be interested to know what is and isn't taxed. The swing in income is high. We have one port that in 24 hours, generated ZERO income !! What's going on there then (well nothing is the answer...nothing is going on there).

To help us pick the best ports to capture, knowing what :

• Is In.
• Will be in.
• Will NEVER be in.

would be a great help.

 

PS, Would also love to be able to set a CLAN tax. To help earn clan monies....and.....PLEASE give us a deposit/withdrawal log on the clan warehouse.

 

 

[Teutonic]

37 minutes ago, Jeheil said:

 

PS, Would also love to be able to set a CLAN tax. To help earn clan monies....and.....PLEASE give us a deposit/withdrawal log on the clan warehouse.

 

 

Definitely.

 

[Sir Texas Sir]

40 minutes ago, Jeheil said:

I would be interested to know what is and isn't taxed. The swing in income is high. We have one port that in 24 hours, generated ZERO income !! What's going on there then (well nothing is the answer...nothing is going on there).

To help us pick the best ports to capture, knowing what :

• Is In.
• Will be in.
• Will NEVER be in.

would be a great help.

 

PS, Would also love to be able to set a CLAN tax. To help earn clan monies....and.....PLEASE give us a deposit/withdrawal log on the clan warehouse.

 

 

People been asking for the logs since I can remember.  It can't be to hard to set up a log that only Officers can see of who deposites and withdraws stuff.

I say no tax of private sales/trades.  I shouldn't loose money every time I had one of my clan mates money or a ship I built just for them.  Private trades should remain that, private.  We don't get taxed (in most cases) for private sales in real life in most places.  Why should we be in game?

I do like the clan tax cause it's kinda annoying when only a few put in and others just take and take.  If clan makes every one pay 10% of there earnings towards the clan coffer (rate can be set by clan higher ups) than you know all active players are putting in no matter what.  Than allow clan pay outs.  So say your clan pays 10% tax on all goods.  Though they make enough from ports to pay the upkeep and the 10%.  Than I can pay back to the clan say 15% of the clan earnings for that day or something so in effect every one is making 5% back for what they put into the clan.

[Skully]

Any form of compound taxes / cost hurts the market. That's why it is has never been used IRL.

 

[Vizzini]

3 hours ago, Jeheil said:

I would be interested to know what is and isn't taxed. The swing in income is high. We have one port that in 24 hours, generated ZERO income !! What's going on there then (well nothing is the answer...nothing is going on there).

To help us pick the best ports to capture, knowing what :

• Is In.
• Will be in.
• Will NEVER be in.

would be a great help.

 

PS, Would also love to be able to set a CLAN tax. To help earn clan monies....and.....PLEASE give us a deposit/withdrawal log on the clan warehouse.

 

 

I had a good look around when they first announced a map reset and it seemed to me that any port that sold a rare commodity or a prt favoured by a nation / players would be a good place to start a base. @qw569 has done a wonderful heat map of activity , finance wise on eu from the api. Would be nice to see how much work goes into that and whether we could get a weekly version for global and pve if they needed too

 

I'm also wondering whether we on global are still in gather the dots mode, rather than pinpointing where we can launch an attack from and call our home.

[admin]

3 hours ago, Jeheil said:

I would be interested to know what is and isn't taxed. 

 

What is taxed

• Ship purchases or sales using the market
• Resources/Materials/Ready goods purchases or sales using the market
• Cannon purchases or sales using the market
• Contracts

Basically - market trade is taxed. As a result - when market trade fluctuates taxes fluctuate. 

[Jeheil]

3 minutes ago, Vizzini said:

I had a good look around when they first announced a map reset and it seemed to me that any port that sold a rare commodity or a prt favoured by a nation / players would be a good place to start a base. @qw569 has done a wonderful heat map of activity , finance wise on eu from the api. Would be nice to see how much work goes into that and whether we could get a weekly version for global and pve if they needed too

 

I'm also wondering whether we on global are still in gather the dots mode, rather than pinpointing where we can launch an attack from and call our home.

Do you have a link ?

[Vizzini]

1 minute ago, Jeheil said:

Do you have a link ?

think this is the thread, did wonder about you using it for L2K but I didn't want you to think you had more to do

[Jeheil]

1 hour ago, Vizzini said:

think this is the thread, did wonder about you using it for L2K but I didn't want you to think you had more to do

What a lovely map !! thanks man.

[Thonys]

It seems AI is not taxed. 

i have a question about that ...... 

1.Why not...!

2.after selecting available for all,    for the second time>>  it tells you it will be available after maintenance (visible)

instead of: your port is already available for all.! (wrong coding here)

 

3 why not an instant change for selecting your choice of behavior why always that after maintenance shit...

4. logs in the port where are they 

5 not ot but still a question: logs in the warehouse where are they.......... cant find them.....??????????????????? as a good bookkeeper i need to know

 

edit: 2 hours later ::

 

the blinking is great :)) good to see the difference

Edited September 18, 2017 by Thonys

[Vizzini]

2 hours ago, Jeheil said:

What a lovely map !! thanks man.

Yep there are two maps I have seen, 1 to do with tax and the hotspots and another that is to do with ow pvp hostpots from the combat log I believe. great work from @qw569 that could be used in your great work "L2k" also

[Sir Texas Sir]

5 hours ago, Vizzini said:

I'm also wondering whether we on global are still in gather the dots mode, rather than pinpointing where we can launch an attack from and call our home.

It kinda look like some of the US/GB ports where grabbed this way, more US as they painted almost all the cost while GB is just picking ports that seem to have important things.  Pirates for the most part is doing the same, but we want to have our little buffer so some of the smaller clans are picking up the not so important ports around Mort.  I think folks or either going to drop the none profitable ports if they don't make enough to cover them or as I'm seeing just in the ports we own so far in BLACK (I'm doing all the port upkeep for the clan) is we have some high profit ports that easily cover the low profit ports in upkeep with tax's they earn.  Even though I been keeping a good extra money in the clan warehouse just in case.  From what I seen of the Danes they are doing the same grabbing there main econ ports and than starting to fill out the dots around them.  Remember this isn't a bad thing as in the US case cause it keeps folks from using the AI neutral ports as a raiding point. Some one wants to raid they need to actually us a freetown or take a port for there clan/nation.

5 hours ago, admin said:

What is taxed

• Ship purchases or sales using the market
• Resources/Materials/Ready goods purchases or sales using the market
• Cannon purchases or sales using the market
• Contracts

Basically - market trade is taxed. As a result - when market trade fluctuates taxes fluctuate. 

So production isn't taxed in a port?  Good to know. I think keeping just these things listed taxed is the way to go.  Don't mess with private trade as that shouldn't be taxed.  The only problem I'm seeing right now is ya'll kinda put way to much COAL every where.  That and I think production boost should apply to player buildings in that port not just the trade goods.  This will encourage folks to use a high production port over the safe port back in the capital region.  If I can get a 20% labor reduction and 20% Production boost in a port I'm going to move my production to that port over the one that doesn't produce as much for as cheap in a safe zone.  Well if it's not that far of an extra sale.  This would encourage folks to actually move away from the safe zones.  You can stay in them if you want to remain safe, but remember profit and rewards comes with risk too.

1 hour ago, Vizzini said:

Yep there are two maps I have seen, 1 to do with tax and the hotspots and another that is to do with ow pvp hostpots from the combat log I believe. great work from @qw569 that could be used in your great work "L2k" also

Yah I think this would be a nice added thing to the "L2TK"  which reminds me since I just got up should go watch that.

[Fargo]

3 hours ago, Thonys said:

1.Why not...!

I doubt anyone really thought about it, its basically the same simple system as always, you pay fees for placing contracts and ship. Just money goes to clans instead of AI. Its cheeky that this got advertised as a new tax system. Its not even a tax, but a fee system.

A proper sales tax would:

• Tax goods when they actually sell, not when a contract is placed.
• Mark goods as taxed, so tax is only payed once. - Little complicated, but could work well together with a smuggler mechanic.
• Restrict/punish the trade/use of untaxed goods to not promote bypassing of the market. - Reputation seems to be a good way, while a reputation system in general would open many further possibilities. Maybe a risk to loose the goods.