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Skully

The Nightflip

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38 minutes ago, Farrago said:

Skully, perhaps you should go to law school, become an attorney, and then dedicate yourself in a qualified way towards cases that matter.

I think it matters that Naval Action has no legal loop holes.

3 hours ago, Skully said:

If testing the legal boundaries of NA is not you cup of tea, then best stay out.

 

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12 minutes ago, Skully said:

I think it matters that Naval Action has no legal loop holes.

 

Lol  Okay Perry Mason  You go get 'em.

Mods, since this topic is probably the cup of tea of only most keen legal minds among us, please change the thread title to something more accurate.

 

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2 minutes ago, Farrago said:

Mods, since this topic is probably the cup of tea of only most keen legal minds among us, please change the thread title to something more accurate.

Like I said, I have no desire to debate the legal side.

I see no problem coming back to the discussion of a potential mechanic.

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1 hour ago, Skully said:

Like I said, I have no desire to debate the legal side.

I see no problem coming back to the discussion of a potential mechanic.

You cannot use a legal PROPOSAL and then not expect people to question the PROPOSAL or your points.

It would be the same as me saying Nightflips are illegal, and you cannot discuss why.

I'll add a point to your "mechanic":

People from ALL TIMEZONES should be FORCED to play EQUALLY SPREAD OUT IN ALL NATIONS. At all times their prime times should be monitored and forced to play in other nations if that nation already has a large population in that timezone. That way there can be NO DISCRIMINATION DUE TO TIMEZONES, due to NIGHFLIPS and the GROUPING of players from certain TIMEZONES.

This card can be played in 2 ways. If it goes to pre server split, then the nightflip brigade should be adressed as well. So far NO MECHANIC has given any solution. The current server split has. 

Edited by Cornelis Tromp

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7 hours ago, Cornelis Tromp said:

You cannot use a legal PROPOSAL and then not expect people to question the PROPOSAL or your points.

I don't expect people not to question and hence I answer all questions and concerns to the best of my knowledge and abilities.

Questioning 2016/0152(COD) however makes no sense on this forum. So it is best to presume it is in full effect and it is applicable.

This is not a matter of like or dislike by players, or want or not want by Game-Labs, it is a matter of dealing with the realities of legal.

8 hours ago, Cornelis Tromp said:

It would be the same as me saying Nightflips are illegal, and you cannot discuss why.

@admin dictates what forms Naval Action. You cannot discuss why.

Alts cannot be truly punished. You cannot discuss why.

Why? Legally established facts.

True, we are talking about a legal proposal. So establishing the legal fact might have certain issues. But why take such risk (and potential cost)?

8 hours ago, Cornelis Tromp said:

People from ALL TIMEZONES should be FORCED to play EQUALLY SPREAD OUT IN ALL NATIONS.

This is actually funny, because this is very close to what the original Alliance system tried to achieve. It failed because players don't want to be forced into a fight and some Nations would not have hostile borders in certain timezones.

We came/come/are very close to abandoning the notion of Nations, which would kind of strike out your proposition.

 

8 hours ago, Cornelis Tromp said:

This card can be played in 2 ways. If it goes to pre server split, then the nightflip brigade should be adressed as well. So far NO MECHANIC has given any solution. The current server split has. 

True, if however the current setup is illegal, then we are back to square one.

Assuming you are true Dutch, you should very well be aware of this. :)

Quote

Elk nadeel hep zijn voordeel.

I think I can attach to that the English phrase:

Quote

Better safe than sorry

Hence the discussion on a mechanic in good old Dutch style. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polder_model

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The polder model is something I kind of detest in games as it kills off action in favour of politics. 

What I dislike here is the fact you are using a legal tangent to get the game your way. 

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12 minutes ago, Cornelis Tromp said:

The polder model is something I kind of detest in games as it kills off action in favour of politics. 

What I dislike here is the fact you are using a legal tangent to get the game your way. 

I don't like it as well, I hate the legal debate. I do like the talk about mechanics though.

But if I can come down that road, then somebody else can come that road. As long as we stay ahead of the other, we can fortify the position properly.

On 9/6/2017 at 5:23 PM, Skully said:

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Dude. :D

With that amount of time and work you put into that forum to force a different ruleset on the EU server I would say you are addicted to portbattles. If you need the money I gladly refund your game.

Devs could also just include a nightbonus for portbattles in different times than EU primetime. Like max 5 players on both sides, circle of death mechanic (old one) and defender gets 15 1st rate ai on his side. Thats some qualitiy content there for you to enjoy

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14 hours ago, Skully said:

Like I said, I have no desire to debate the legal side.

I see no problem coming back to the discussion of a potential mechanic.

This debate does not exist as there is no geo blocking and all players can play on any server they want in the working hours those servers provide. Customers interested in unrestricted warfare are free to join global servers or request timed limitations on their server, or vice versa. 
In addition to that we are sure the platforms that sell games (App Store/Steam or others) apply local laws in all regions they operate and if laws change the platform rules will change as well. 

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1 hour ago, admin said:

This debate does not exist as there is no geo blocking and all players can play on any server they want in the working hours those servers provide.

So I can play 10-12 Port Battles on EU server?

1 hour ago, admin said:

Customers interested in unrestricted warfare are free to join global servers or request timed limitations on their server, or vice versa. 

That constitutes a violation of 3 (2) of 2016/0152(COD).

1 hour ago, admin said:

In addition to that we are sure the platforms that sell games (App Store/Steam or others) apply local laws in all regions they operate and if laws change the platform rules will change as well. 

http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/#10

"In the event of a dispute relating to the interpretation, the performance or the validity of the Subscriber Agreement, an amicable solution will be sought before any legal action."

ECC is the final authority.

To paraphrase the EU solicitor: Valve or Valve EU are not the developers of the game. Game-Labs has to comply to your requests, not Valve EU.

Edited by Skully

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2 hours ago, Skully said:

So I can play 10-12 Port Battles on EU server?

That constitutes a violation of 3 (2) of 2016/0152(COD).

http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/#10

"In the event of a dispute relating to the interpretation, the performance or the validity of the Subscriber Agreement, an amicable solution will be sought before any legal action."

ECC is the final authority.

To paraphrase the EU solicitor: Valve or Valve EU are not the developers of the game. Game-Labs has to comply to your requests, not Valve EU.

All content is available on Global. Thanks for playing.

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2 hours ago, Skully said:

So I can play 10-12 Port Battles on EU server?

 

You cannot enter bank branches or stores at 5am too. Which is a business decision and under eu law if your business is not mission critical (hospitals etc) time of business operations is totally fine. For example the driving license tests or plastic surgeon appointments are usually at certain time slots; Dutch consulate interview times for refugees are happening once a week and at a certain time slot as well.

Same logic applies here. The port battle operation window is open for certain hours per day and its the rule of the server.

But there is no geo - blocking. Once port battle window is open ANY user from ANYWHERE in the world can access the port battle on the EU server (unlike eu consulate visits).

Same in reverse - any user from the EU can play on the global server with unrestricted port battle times, and any user from EU can play on the PVE server where there are no port battles at all. 
 

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11 minutes ago, admin said:

You cannot enter bank branches or stores at 5am too. Which is a business decision and under eu law if your business is not mission critical (hospitals etc) time of business operations is totally fine. For example the driving license tests or plastic surgeon appointments are usually at certain time slots; Dutch consulate interview times for refugees are happening once a week and at a certain time slot as well.

Same logic applies here. The port battle operation window is open for certain hours per day and its the rule of the server.

But there is no geo - blocking. Once port battle window is open ANY user from ANYWHERE in the world can access the port battle on the EU server (unlike eu consulate visits).

Same in reverse - any user from the EU can play on the global server with unrestricted port battle times, and any user from EU can play on the PVE server where there are no port battles at all. 
 

But you can buy from their online outlets 24/7.   That is the point he is making.

 

On to the next part of the issue. 

You still havent added any information for new or returning players on the server selection screen to give them some idea on what server is what?

Just naming it Global and EU doesnt help.  You need to hold peoples hands and let them know what exactly the differences are. 

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47 minutes ago, admin said:

You cannot enter bank branches or stores at 5am too. Which is a business decision and under eu law if your business is not mission critical (hospitals etc) time of business operations is totally fine. For example the driving license tests or plastic surgeon appointments are usually at certain time slots; Dutch consulate interview times for refugees are happening once a week and at a certain time slot as well.

Same logic applies here. The port battle operation window is open for certain hours per day and its the rule of the server.

But there is no geo - blocking. Once port battle window is open ANY user from ANYWHERE in the world can access the port battle on the EU server (unlike eu consulate visits).

Same in reverse - any user from the EU can play on the global server with unrestricted port battle times, and any user from EU can play on the PVE server where there are no port battles at all. 
 

Well... It's an online game... not a bank (at least not on the player side) for what I know the game works for most of the day and night. So why restrict one part of the gameplay and have the rest open?

I used to play on PVP1 when it was more about the community than anything else. Some of us back during the Night/day flip problem on pvp1 were proposing solutions. Some of them where good. But unfortunately the only way out you found was to separate the players. European vs the rest of the world. Which is still not a good option... It only antagonize one part of the player base with the other.

I went to Global and as French (and we were not the only ones I guess) we showed that PB, RvR and ports were not that important for a nation to survive.

There is certainly no geo blocking in place for the server choice, but there is definitely a time blocking on what we can do between some hours on the EU server.

With the system now in place we do know that when the hype of the new patch wears off having the population split in two servers is not viable.

 

Edited by Louis Garneray

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1 hour ago, admin said:

You cannot enter bank branches or stores at 5am too. Which is a business decision and under eu law if your business is not mission critical (hospitals etc) time of business operations is totally fine. For example the driving license tests or plastic surgeon appointments are usually at certain time slots; Dutch consulate interview times for refugees are happening once a week and at a certain time slot as well.

Your business hours you have already defined (although never explicitly). They might not be liked, but they are fully justifiable.

On 9/10/2017 at 1:39 PM, Skully said:
On 9/10/2017 at 1:25 PM, Aegir said:

Doesn't that mean that the maintenance time is also discriminatory against whomever is hit by it?

In a sense yes, because it could be rescheduled and some folks have raised this in the past.

It is however a necessary evil of the current system which can only be applied in a convenient time for the dev team.

Out of that window the hour(s) of least impacting a number of players has been chosen by dev team.

I am all in favor of having a 24/7 game, but that is not viable cost wise. (Legally allowed justification.)

Edited by Skully
typo

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58 minutes ago, Hodo said:

But you can buy from their online outlets 24/7.   That is the point he is making.

Thats not the point he is making.
He is making the point that the game is geo blocked and some players have NO access to content if they are located in some region. Like for example Amazon Prime Videos cannot be watched if you are in Poland (completely blocked, all of them). 

This statement is completely false because any player from any time zone can participate in port battles in their assigned time window (which is large on global and narrow on eu). You can do it from ANY region. Thus there is no geo - blocking

 

30 minutes ago, Louis Garneray said:

There is certainly no geo blocking in place for the server choice, but there is definitely a time blocking on what we can do between some hours on the EU server.

Thats what we said. There is no geo blocking and while port battles could be unavailable on 2 servers PVE or EU, you can always participate in one on Global from ANY region. Which means there are not any geo blocking whatsoever. 

 

This concludes the topic. 

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