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Invisibility poll

Invisibility poll  

119 members have voted

  1. 1. Please provide your vote on invisibility and speed boost after battle

    • Keep as it is
      70
    • Reduce by 50%
      20
    • Remove completely
      29


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13 hours ago, Bach said:

First off, you state you (Skully) using a third party (essentially GPS) system to track allies/targets and coordinate your ganks like modern fast patrol craft. That not exactly a fair test of the mechanics but we'll go with it.

@admin

The GPS tracker exploit sounds like a serious hacker game spoiler. If it is true, can something be done to defeat this such as not sending ship position and ID data to the client until the contact ship is in render range?

 

Buster (swinging swords at ghosts)

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Skully    1,022
18 minutes ago, Busterbloodvessel said:

@admin

The GPS tracker exploit sounds like a serious hacker game spoiler. If it is true, can something be done to defeat this such as not sending ship position and ID data to the client until the contact ship is in render range?

 

Buster (swinging swords at ghosts)

That is already the case.

We are not talking about GPS tracking other ships, we are continuously on the lookout for such hacks. 

You can test this for yourself with a teammate. Let him sail on an angle slight away from you. As he hits the horizon his ship will stop moving. The server is at that moment no longer sending you updates. After a short time your client registers it as a timeout and removes the ship. (The client never does any form of position prediction, server is the authority.)

Target tracking of visible ships can be done on the GPS, but requires a bit more coding which I believe hasn't been done yet. (Although I don't trust foggy weather.)

To fix this the F11 coordinates need to be removed. And any coordinates need to be send through a personalized reference point.

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Bach    1,274
2 hours ago, Busterbloodvessel said:

@admin

The GPS tracker exploit sounds like a serious hacker game spoiler. If it is true, can something be done to defeat this such as not sending ship position and ID data to the client until the contact ship is in render range?

 

Buster (swinging swords at ghosts)

I don't think there is anything that can or possibly should be done about this during beta testing. The bug reporting system marks ship coordinates.  I'm guessing whatever this third part program is that it simply checks the F11 cords for ships linked together in a common system, collects the data and then reports it on a positional map.  This would be the same as players periodically hitting f11 and telling everyone in their group what their cords are and then plotting everyone's coords on a separate map screen.  Of course a program does it all in the blink of an eye.  

I don't think this works for target ships. However, it no great measure for the spotting ships coords to be just as good as the actual target coords. So target cords are not all that valuable. Ultimately, when the game goes live the F11 system gets disabled and this potential goes away.

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Rebrall    87
8 hours ago, Skully said:

It makes perfect sense.

Nobody will come out to save a casual and we need @Sir Texas Sir to keep the ducklings busy. :D

Just as it is now or was in the past. With or without invisibility.

With invisibility 

 

i know some people abuse it but I've said it before and I'll say it again no matter what the mechanic in this game some one/group will always find a way to abuse it,

 

but then you got some people like  koltes and liqucity for example who do real 1v1's who don't and deserve a chance to get away after a good fight.

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Skully    1,022
9 minutes ago, Rebrall said:

but then you got some people like  koltes and liqucity for example who do real 1v1's who don't and deserve a chance to get away after a good fight.

Koltes shouldn't need invisibility to get away, but needs something else for a good getaway.

On Sunday, August 20, 2017 at 6:58 PM, Skully said:

I can only say I agree. It wasn't fun or exciting when I sank koltes in a 3v1.

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Liq    3,259
20 minutes ago, Rebrall said:

With invisibility 

 

i know some people abuse it but I've said it before and I'll say it again no matter what the mechanic in this game some one/group will always find a way to abuse it,

 

but then you got some people like  koltes and liqucity for example who do real 1v1's who don't and deserve a chance to get away after a good fight.

Eh it doesnt even necessarily need to be a fair battle IMO. I still think the Main point, which needs to be defended, is that you should ALWAYS get into battle what you see (more or less, 3 minute timer simulates that fact). Some players enjoy ganking more, and I think we should let them, because its part of an ow mmo.
I liked the suggestion of implementing an auto improoved Social Perk which let the battles stay open until the def. side had max. 1.3 - 1.5 times the BR of the attacking side. But some players didn't want to force balance into an OW MMO.

10 minutes ago, Skully said:

Koltes shouldn't need invisibility to get away

How exactly do you plan to get away when you get kicked out straight to OW  from a battle without any additional effects such as invis? I've seen Koltes sailing around solo before aswell. I know you guys like to counter revenge fleets with your own reinforcements. But when sailing around solo, the chance of evading a revenge fleet, without any invis., is next to non existant, no matter the ship. You really don't need to be a genius to anticipate where the guy leaving a battle is going to sail, and since you can literally camp on the exact battle pos, that makes it even easier for them.

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Rebrall    87
41 minutes ago, Liquicity said:

Eh it doesnt even necessarily need to be a fair battle IMO. I still think the Main point, which needs to be defended, is that you should ALWAYS get into battle what you see (more or less, 3 minute timer simulates that fact). Some players enjoy ganking more, and I think we should let them, because its part of an ow mmo.
I liked the suggestion of implementing an auto improoved Social Perk which let the battles stay open until the def. side had max. 1.3 - 1.5 times the BR of the attacking side. But some players didn't want to force balance into an OW MMO.

How exactly do you plan to get away when you get kicked out straight to OW  from a battle without any additional effects such as invis? I've seen Koltes sailing around solo before aswell. I know you guys like to counter revenge fleets with your own reinforcements. But when sailing around solo, the chance of evading a revenge fleet, without any invis., is next to non existant, no matter the ship. You really don't need to be a genius to anticipate where the guy leaving a battle is going to sail, and since you can literally camp on the exact battle pos, that makes it even easier for them.

Probably a bad example on my part but you get the gist though I don't hate your idea either it's a good suggestion it i would be more than happy for it to be implemented 

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Skully    1,022
57 minutes ago, Liquicity said:

But when sailing around solo, the chance of evading a revenge fleet, without any invis., is next to non existant, no matter the ship.

4E3CD5BDC032BEA04028BB538B508C00C3F1C39B

On 7/16/2016 at 4:22 PM, Skully said:

And an entire British Armada was not enough to prevent me making my escape.

On 7/16/2016 at 11:57 PM, The Red Duke said:

Yarr Skully, the legend grows !!!!

 

Gotta love a good escape :D

No invisibility, no speed boost. Just me, my ship and the wind in my sails.

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Skully    1,022
2 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

one example of a get-away, it MUST mean we don't need invisibility guys! /s

On 9/10/2016 at 4:41 PM, Fuzzyhead12 said:

thats not much  considering that i alredy sunk or captured, ships and cargo worht 6 million coins around jamaika the last 3 days...

On 9/11/2016 at 9:36 AM, Skully said:

So Fuzzy was nicely ganking away at Jamaica, building up "hostilities" (hur hur).

 

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Liq    3,259
7 minutes ago, Skully said:

4E3CD5BDC032BEA04028BB538B508C00C3F1C39B

No invisibility, no speed boost. Just me, my ship and the wind in my sails.

Well then, incompetent enemy forces. I made experiences pre invis. Times where I was surrounded into literally every direction, surrounded by ships which should have never been able to reach me / us cause they were not in the 3 min range.

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Rebrall    87
11 minutes ago, Skully said:

4E3CD5BDC032BEA04028BB538B508C00C3F1C39B

No invisibility, no speed boost. Just me, my ship and the wind in my sails.

Ok now look at it in a different light imagine being a fresher player and try having a crack at OWPvP,

not only that but you have to remember we have a very limited player base at the moment so getaways are easier.

 

if we hade a larger player base you would need that invisibility 

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Skully    1,022
4 minutes ago, Rebrall said:

Ok now look at it in a different light imagine being a fresher player and try having a crack at OWPvP,

not only that but you have to remember we have a very limited player base at the moment so getaways are easier.

 

if we hade a larger player base you would need that invisibility 

If we had a larger player base, there would be more people tied up in battles themselves.

Having a crack at OW PvP or tossing yourself alone into enemy waters are two opposites. The first is relatively easy, go patrolling friendly waters or escorting PB fleets. Build your way up to engaging enemy ships as part of a fleet. And then go alone dodging enemy patrols in their waters.

Why should going alone in enemy waters not be risky? Why does everyone pick the hardest career out of the box and expects to survive?

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Liq    3,259
19 minutes ago, Skully said:

Why should going alone in enemy waters not be risky? Why does everyone pick the hardest career out of the box and expects to survive?

It already IS risky going to enemy waters, the possibility to get caught is still there if you mess up.

What are the alternatives? Sit in greenzone and wait for someone stupid enough looking for pvp, in enemy waters cause thats the only place to find it?

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Rebrall    87
2 hours ago, Skully said:

If we had a larger player base, there would be more people tied up in battles themselves.

Having a crack at OW PvP or tossing yourself alone into enemy waters are two opposites. The first is relatively easy, go patrolling friendly waters or escorting PB fleets. Build your way up to engaging enemy ships as part of a fleet. And then go alone dodging enemy patrols in their waters.

Why should going alone in enemy waters not be risky? Why does everyone pick the hardest career out of the box and expects to survive?

 

2 hours ago, Liquicity said:

It already IS risky going to enemy waters, the possibility to get caught is still there if you mess up.

What are the alternatives? Sit in greenzone and wait for someone stupid enough looking for pvp, in enemy waters cause thats the only place to find it?

I don't disrepute either argument,

 

should someone/small groups sail in my nations waters kill one of my nations players and be able to sail away with no repercussions? Hell no 

 

but should someone/small groups go out looking for OW PvP and find little until they are in enemy waters then get absolutely smashed by huge groups of players or get a good fight out of Somone then get smashed by 5+ players? Again definitely not 

 

there is a lot of grey areas also in between my personal opinion would be my option is fair (see above a few posts) then you add Liquicity's idea of a BR limit or ship limit then you have a real good idea 

 

a little off topic but maybe there should be serious thoughts into weekly PvP tournaments & pvp events

that way there would be less ganking of newbies around capitals not saying it will stop but will decrease it some what 

also really want to push the idea of speed after pve missions not invisibility and not being able to enter that mission unless you are in the group that started the mission 

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Skully    1,022
3 hours ago, Rebrall said:

there is a lot of grey areas also in between my personal opinion would be my option is fair (see above a few posts) then you add Liquicity's idea of a BR limit or ship limit then you have a real good idea 

 

a little off topic but maybe there should be serious thoughts into weekly PvP tournaments & pvp events

Only Legends seek a fair fight. (See what I did there... hur hur)

On Monday, August 14, 2017 at 6:06 PM, Skully said:

Legends is all about pure combat skill, 25x25 (and similar formats). In Legends the premise is that you start battle on equal terms.

In Open World you need to seek out battles to fight on favorable terms. Or putting it differently, in OW you seek the unfair advantage.

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koltes    1,982

@admin I could not vote unfortunately.
The Invisibility mechanic does not come here alone. It comes with the speed buff which is also a part of the same issue. Why is the speed buff not on the same poll? We can't fix one mechanic without addressing the other. 
Its like fixing one basement log of the house and ignoring others with the same issue.

 

On 9/7/2017 at 2:42 AM, Demsity said:

If reduced or removed, a system needs to be implemented to prevent forever tagging. Forever tagging is when a group of player tag you over and over again after escpaing battles, leading to chases taking hours upon hours.

^ This
We can all talk about how revenge fleet should not be there due to the time compression, but why there is no proper mention of the fact that when running ships will defense tag and use speed and invisibility to run away from battles. This can continue for hours. Yes we removed revenge fleet time sink, but instead added chain tagging time sink. The whole reason of removing the time sink is failed because we still waste each other's time, just for different reasons.

At the end of the day and this is the key here that sorts EVERYTHING - faster ships should be able to run. Better captains (or lucky) should also be able to slip away. End of story. This is a disgrace for a game of this scale and depth to allow slow ships such as Wappen to run from fast ships such as Surps, just because of defensive tag and following invisibility and speed buff.
I have addressed this issue earlier IMHO finding the right balance between the hunters and the hunted.


In short:
1. To counter defense tagging, the Invisibility and speed can only be granted to those who where TAGGED, not to the tagger. What does this mean? Yes you will have to face the revenge fleet. But the issue was never that there was a revenge fleet because people still must have an ability to defend their home waters, but the time sink when revenge could go on for hours. If there are revenge fleet than you will have to face it. Once. Allow them to tag you which will allow you to earn invisibility so on exit you will run. Some will say, but what if I'm in a slower ship? Well, then they will catch you wont they? Isn't it just logical and inline with laws of physics... errr common sense? You could still defense tag them, but you wont get invisibility and its more than fair.

2. In order to get invisibility and speed buff player must earn it INSIDE the battle. If he is faster and is able to increase distance outside tagging range (1,250 meter) or he is stronger and kills all enemies inside, then he gets his invisibility and speed buff, providing that he was tagged. Else if he tagged someone and sunk them why should he get invisibility and get out of jail card? Nope, they have to face home defenses and make a run for it. If they then get tagged and earn their invisibility so be it, but its not free. If he was faster in the battle that represents the fact that he would be faster in the OW too and slip away.

3. Also, to fix battle camping and ambushes, getting out off ANY battle MUST have No Join, No Attack 3 min timer, so all battle instance that started prior will be closed (or whatever battle join timer there will be in future - its 3 minutes now)
 


 

On 9/7/2017 at 3:29 AM, Liquicity said:

So tell me mr skully, where do you expect players to meet for pvp if not in national waters.

Ganking is part of pretty much any ow mmo. But most of them dont know the revenge squad phenomena cause thex dont have 2 dimensions. Instanced battles and therefore 2 travelling speeds bring the need to make a workaround .

Hopefully devs will find solution to this, else this game will not celebrate Christmas unfortunately.
Capital waters will be high security zone where you cant really hunt anybody. It will be fine as long as they implement mechanics that will make larger clans looking to extend and go out of noob zone.

Edited by koltes

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Fuzzyhead12    151

 

On 7.9.2017 at 11:26 PM, Skully said:

So Fuzzy was nicely ganking away at Jamaica, building up "hostilities" (hur hur).

i still dont understnad how tradehunting in a niagarra solo is considered ganking

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Beridian    0
On 6/9/2017 at 3:12 PM, rediii said:

Changes you decide there not only affect hunting players. It affects also portbattles.

A lost portbattle as attacker can easily mean that you lose a big part of the fleet if you have nothing.

Even with invisibility and speedboost, because attackerships are faced towards the port and defenderships are faced to the attackers it means that defenders can force attackers to a second battle most of the time tho.

Port battles and pvp open sea must be different mechanics at this topic

i totally agree with u in that case, in port battles u need this boost to have an opportunity to be safe.

i think at safe opoen sea areas u must remove this boost but in normal pvp areas u must keep it

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