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Peter Goldman

Matchmaking in Legends

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Matchmaking is probably the main concern of complaining in arena games besides P2W, micro-transactions and grind.

How is it going to work in NA and how players think it should work?

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Yes, but Sea Trials was not such competitive game with a leaderboard, score, results, rankings etc. Seal Trials was purely about the battle instance and TESTING it. 

Sorry @The Red Duke but your answer comes to the edge of trolling.

Things to address:

  • Duels (some players want to go for duels, rather than small/medium/big size battles
  • Quick Match (sends you to whatever battle without any preferences)
  • Matchmaking based on players ranking (so the battle does not end up with 1 team full of pros and veterans and the other team full of newbies. In old battle instances balancing would happen only via BR, if Legends wants to have really good matchmaking, it should also consider players' experience and their ranking. I would suggest weighted average of BR and players level, prestige, ranking or whatever system we will use
  • Competitive & non-competitive battles (if we have plans for a competitive league with all results, scoreboards, leaderboards and rewards for real competitive players)
  • Average Waiting Time displayed for every game mode
  • Custom & Private Lobbies (many players really ask for it for ages. It will be great for the training or private tournaments etc. Options for Custom Lobbies such as:
  1. Storm Battles
  2. Port Battles
  3. Battle Location
  4. Battle Size
  5. BR Limit of team
  6.  Private Invites (custom lobbies should be only private in my opinion, thus only players can join via private invite)

 

Then we have to consider several factors how to balance a number of game modes and options taking into account player base size. Smaller player base, lesser choices, bigger player base - more possible choices for public matches (private custom lobbies should have no limits to choices of setup, but should be exclusively private and maybe require a premium for possible monetization? Only the host needs to own premium of course). The goal to be achieved is short waiting times for all game modes, not keeping players in queues for a long time.

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System was mirror teams for the most part and separated rates in Large and Small. Oh, an the Trafalgar one.

Given the RN system also considered amount of guns in a ship in addition to ship rate, especially in frigates, that extra half-rates can be considered IMO.

All the tables and competitive boards are extra from match making. Same as maps.

Your question was direct. The answer was direct. Sometimes thoughts fly by so so so fast that judgement becomes blurry, let's hope it doesn't happen again.

 

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9 minutes ago, Peter Goldman said:

Sorry @The Red Duke but your answer comes to the edge of trolling.

4 minutes ago, The Red Duke said:

Your question was direct. The answer was direct.

The answer was correct, yet not very insightful. I see no need to feel insulted.

Longing for the Open World, I also did not experience much of Sea Trials.

Did it ever have a lineup that allowed you to select a ship (out of a lineup) as opposed to selecting a ship and then seeking a lineup?

In WoWs the queue shows what kind of ships are in demand, but this doesn't scale down too well. Rather then seeking to sail with a certain ship, players might be more helped by seeking any form of action regardless of actual ship. WDYT?

 

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Ah huge problem ST matchmaking had and we still had with the arena queues for Trafalgar was that it put 2 pickles vs 1 cerb into one battle. That happened because the system just looked that the end br of each side. And not if the setup actually makes sense.

Edited by z4ys

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I also find the BR system broken for now as BR of many ships do not really represent the power of them:

  1. Essex has more BR than Pirate Frigate (225 vs 170) but Pirate Frigate is superior to Essex in all ways, besides carronade setup.
  2. Wapen von Hamburg has more BR than any 4th rate
  3. Agamemnon / Ingermanland / Constitution have the same BR (because of old Port Battle BR system, it was promised to be just a place holder for testing, was promised to be changed and tweaked in future but Devs forgot about it? @admin).
  4. Santissima / L'Ocean / Victory have the same BR (same issue as above)
  5. Gunboat for some reason has 50 BR which I find crazy (I know it can carry big guns aka 18pd long and 68pd carronade, but considering the firepower of the ship? It's just one gun per bow and stern lol
  6. Following point 3 & 4 I believe that all 3rd rates and 2nd rates have also the same BR compared to each other
  7. Indefatigable has the same BR as Agamemnon/Ingermanland/Constitution

There are lots of other flaws in BR rating of many ships in this game and they need to be tuned and tweaked for proper matchmaking in Legends.

Edited by Peter Goldman

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Interested to see if people prefer the WoT style tier system (SoL vs SoL and frigates vs frigates) or a mixed fleet style. Personally I think it'd be nice to test it out with mixed fleets but the frigate only small battles we used to do were some of the most fun and competitive I've been in.

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12 minutes ago, Fellvred said:

Interested to see if people prefer the WoT style tier system (SoL vs SoL and frigates vs frigates) or a mixed fleet style. Personally I think it'd be nice to test it out with mixed fleets but the frigate only small battles we used to do were some of the most fun and competitive I've been in.

I never said that we shouldn't have mixed style, I only mentioned battle size:

Small Battles (e.g. 3v3 or 5v5 or 6v6)

Medium Battles (from 10 to 15 per team?)

Big Battles (15-25 per side)

I have nothing against mixed fleets. The only issue I would find is that everyone would like to bring the biggest ships to get kills/exp/gold (even on testbed server LMAO, everyone "testing new ships" on Victories). A fixed BR limit per team would be nice so we don't end up with 25x 1st rates on one and the other team.

Edited by Peter Goldman

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What we need IMO:

  • "Deathmatch" type of game, max. 25v25, any ship allowed, matchmaker tries to balance the heavies to both sides
  • "Ranked", can choose between a few options, e.g. 1v1 / 2v2 / 3v3... And then have a ranking Board for each category. You get matched based on your ELO. Similar to the system Rocket League has.i
  • CUSTOM LOBBY!!!!! We should be able to test out our own battle settings (without any rewards) and lock the room with a password or just let it open for anyone to join. There we could test stuff like 10 frigates vs 2 3rd rates. Or literally anything else, the possibilities are endless. (Basically warthunder's custom battle mode)
  • Maybe a portbattle mode with some different settings and ship restrictions
Edited by Liquicity

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13 minutes ago, Liquicity said:

What we need IMO:

  • "Deathmatch" type of game, max. 25v25, any ship allowed, matchmaker tries to balance the heavies to both sides
  • "Ranked", can choose between a few options, e.g. 1v1 / 2v2 / 3v3... And then have a ranking Board for each category. You get matched based on your ELO. Similar to the system Rocket League has.i
  • CUSTOM LOBBY!!!!! We should be able to test out our own battle settings (without any rewards) and lock the room with a password or just let it open for anyone to join. There we could test stuff like 10 frigates vs 2 3rd rates. Or literally anything else, the possibilities are endless. (Basically warthunder's custom battle mode)
  • Maybe a portbattle mode with some different settings and ship restrictions

Basically everything there should be used as the blueprint for what Devs implement. Except "Portbattle Mode". And I don't say that over concerns that portbattle-mode in Legends will draw players away from the OW game. That would not be a relevant objection. But for many reasons I don't think the current iteration of Port Battles would fit in, or add anything, to Legends. For one, I'm not a huge fan of the three circles, run-around, sail-shooting version of port-battles where fleets don't really engage or sink en masse anymore (maybe this would change if people won't have to consider the retreat home afterwards, I don't know, but I doubt it). But I also am very sceptical of wether forts have anything place at all in Legends. I don't think so. If we need a port-battle mode in Legends I'd say model it after the old port-battles with open-sea and 5 forts to destroy and a shrinking circle. I remember the horrible kiting to run out the time, but why would people be kiting like that in Legends where there is no OW I don't know...

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After so many years WOT has finally come to players demands and made proper MM based on 3-5-7 or 5-10 rule. So when you have tiers (rates in our case) mixed up in random matches the rule goes that there will be 3 top tier, 5 medium and 7 lower. Or 5 top and 10 lower.

This way everyone have plenty of targets to shoot. I think NA could employ similar MM rules

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Players obiously will run in Legends becase they don't wanna die (LMAO). It can destroy their K/D ratio for example (one reason not to implement K/D ratio to the game). @Anolytic

Doesn't matter if the don't even lose their assests and ships haha, sometimes it's just ego case. You won't kill me! No way :P

Regarding Port Battles, I suggested it ONLY for Private Custom Lobbies (not for public matchmaking).

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For matchmaking, they need to make it like PUBG quick insta battles (you need to choose your loadout and maybe pain or whatever you want before the battles) 

another point is that we need clans-squads so you can play much quicker.

AND I said this before but okay, we need in game voice channels like: Global - Team - Sqaud 1/2/3/4/5 - and turn off of course.

and I hope every ship will be in the battle so you don't get 25 first rates vs 25 first rates, you can make lobbys for first rate only or what you want, but what many people want it mixed fleets from 7th rates to first.

greets,

 

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27 minutes ago, Peter Goldman said:

Players obiously will run in Legends becase they don't wanna die (LMAO). It can destroy their K/D ratio for example (one reason not to implement K/D ratio to the game). @Anolytic

Doesn't matter if the don't even lose their assests and ships haha, sometimes it's just ego case. You won't kill me! No way :P

Regarding Port Battles, I suggested it ONLY for Private Custom Lobbies (not for public matchmaking).

I know, I know. I was trying for subtle sarcasm. 

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1 hour ago, Anolytic said:

Basically everything there should be used as the blueprint for what Devs implement. Except "Portbattle Mode". And I don't say that over concerns that portbattle-mode in Legends will draw players away from the OW game. That would not be a relevant objection. But for many reasons I don't think the current iteration of Port Battles would fit in, or add anything, to Legends. For one, I'm not a huge fan of the three circles, run-around, sail-shooting version of port-battles where fleets don't really engage or sink en masse anymore (maybe this would change if people won't have to consider the retreat home afterwards, I don't know, but I doubt it). But I also am very sceptical of wether forts have anything place at all in Legends. I don't think so. If we need a port-battle mode in Legends I'd say model it after the old port-battles with open-sea and 5 forts to destroy and a shrinking circle. I remember the horrible kiting to run out the time, but why would people be kiting like that in Legends where there is no OW I don't know...

I thought @admin said they would try and implement shallows in Legends and if so that would add an element to make mixed fleets and a port battle mode much more viable. I don't disagree that changes should be made to the current OW port battles, but I do think that battle type has a place in Legends. Otherwise the poor Mortar brig would sit on the sidelines :)

Don't think of it as an OW PB because it is not, the goals are different. You can have a mirrored map where each fleet has to sail past the enemy fort or tower to reach a cap zone in the enemy harbor for example. The fort or tower can be in the objective so you must destroy it to begin capping.  Maybe look at it as a type of map rather than a battle mode as long as the players can see it in the queue to bring the right ships. So IMO forts and land have a place in Legends rather then the towers in the middle of the sea that we had before.

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1 hour ago, koltes said:

After so many years WOT has finally come to players demands and made proper MM based on 3-5-7 or 5-10 rule. So when you have tiers (rates in our case) mixed up in random matches the rule goes that there will be 3 top tier, 5 medium and 7 lower. Or 5 top and 10 lower.

This way everyone have plenty of targets to shoot. I think NA could employ similar MM rules

I see a huge problem here as the idea is good in theory and works in WoT, small tanks shot there faster and they all can mostly penetrate through the armour more or less, right? In NA frigates won't get kills or even sometimes assists for SOLs. SOLs will get the majority of kills and assists, thus getting most of the gold/exp/prestige rewards. The SOLs have that huge thickness that it will be a huge problem for 5th rates and smaller ships to be relevant in battle... Most of the ships smaller than 4th rates will be irrelevant IN TERMS OF REWARDS. Of course, the can chain, demast, stern rake and grape, but how is it rewarded? In NA that barely counts to any rewards, these ships very often do not get any assists, nor combat marks, nor other rewards. 

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11 minutes ago, Peter Goldman said:

I see a huge problem here as the idea is good in theory and works in WoT, small tanks shot there faster and they all can mostly penetrate through the armour more or less, right? In NA frigates won't get kills or even sometimes assists for SOLs. SOLs will get the majority of kills and assists, thus getting most of the gold/exp/prestige rewards. The SOLs have that huge thickness that it will be a huge problem for 5th rates and smaller ships to be relevant in battle... Most of the ships smaller than 4th rates will be irrelevant IN TERMS OF REWARDS. Of course, the can chain, demast, stern rake and grape, but how is it rewarded? In NA that barely counts to any rewards, these ships very often do not get any assists, nor combat marks, nor other rewards. 

I agree with you. Maybe we can implement something that would give xp based on damage done to sails, masts, crew, etc. to take into account each class roles?

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4 hours ago, Fellvred said:

Interested to see if people prefer the WoT style tier system (SoL vs SoL and frigates vs frigates) or a mixed fleet style. Personally I think it'd be nice to test it out with mixed fleets but the frigate only small battles we used to do were some of the most fun and competitive I've been in.

Prefer mixed fleets for sure. If we lock it to tiers we just gonna see a clone wars again everyone will pick the best ship of the tier and it will be just like now in port battles.

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@Pada Take a look at my posts. Allowing SOLs into battles with smaller ships has lots of issues and problems that most of you are blind at the moment by the look of it.

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35 minutes ago, Peter Goldman said:

@Pada Take a look at my posts. Allowing SOLs into battles with smaller ships has lots of issues and problems that most of you are blind at the moment by the look of it.

Nah there is no problem. As a frigate captain you have enough things to do and you are not supposed to linefight SOL's, that's the job of your team's lineships. As a frigate you are giving cover to the rear lineship, go after other frigates and swing in for rakes on enemy lineships. That's the best thing in this game that actually works, every ship has it's role.

Don't know if you were around in sea trials but i can remember that most of the times you got ignored by lineships when you were not right next to them. We just need to test it and I think it will work perfectly.

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38 minutes ago, Pada said:

Nah there is no problem. As a frigate captain you have enough things to do and you are not supposed to linefight SOL's, that's the job of your team's lineships. As a frigate you are giving cover to the rear lineship, go after other frigates and swing in for rakes on enemy lineships. That's the best thing in this game that actually works, every ship has it's role.

Don't know if you were around in sea trials but i can remember that most of the times you got ignored by lineships when you were not right next to them. We just need to test it and I think it will work perfectly.

Yes, but small ships get no rewards. How do you want to fix it? In theory, it sounds cool. if you stick to the damage/kill/assists system, SOL's will get 80% of rewards. As a player in L'Ocean I will prioritize small ships, 1 broadside to Pickle and it's dead. 2 Broadsides to Surprise and it's dead. I will totally ignore SOLs like in NA I do. First I kill small and easy targets that die from a couple of balls (because they are dangerous, chain and stern rake) and then I worry about big ships. I have over 4000 hours experience in NA and this tactic always worked best for me and my clan mates.

In real life there was a rule that SOL cannot open fire to smaller ships as long as there is SOL on the enemy side. This rule is not applied to this game, thus making it actually imbalanced in another way.

Edited by Peter Goldman

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37 minutes ago, Peter Goldman said:

Yes, but small ships get no rewards. How do you want to fix it? In theory, it sounds cool. if you stick to the damage/kill/assists system, SOL's will get 80% of rewards. As a player in L'Ocean I will prioritize small ships, 1 broadside to Pickle and it's dead. 2 Broadsides to Surprise and it's dead. I will totally ignore SOLs like in NA I do. First I kill small and easy targets that die from a couple of balls (because they are dangerous, chain and stern rake) and then I worry about big ships. I have over 4000 hours experience in NA and this tactic always worked best for me and my clan mates.

In real life there was a rule that SOL cannot open fire to smaller ships as long as there is SOL on the enemy side. This rule is not applied to this game, thus making it actually imbalanced in another way.

Of course you can't apply the rewards from Naval Actions open world to a arena game with actual matchmaking. I'm sure we will find a way that gives everyone rewards for the actions he has done. We already had a system that gave us xp from the damage done to hull sails and crew. We could also give more xp if you damage higher rated ships and less xp for lower tier. You would get tons of rewards for killing crew of a SoL when you are in a lower tier ship. And if a frigate is so stupid to sit right next to a lineship then yes he would sink fast. But that's his own fault if he gets himself in such a situation.

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24 minutes ago, Pada said:

Of course you can't apply the rewards from Naval Actions open world to a arena game with actual matchmaking. I'm sure we will find a way that gives everyone rewards for the actions he has done. We already had a system that gave us xp from the damage done to hull sails and crew. We could also give more xp if you damage higher rated ships and less xp for lower tier. You would get tons of rewards for killing crew of a SoL when you are in a lower tier ship. And if a frigate is so stupid to sit right next to a lineship then yes he would sink fast. But that's his own fault if he gets himself in such a situation.

That would be a good solution, but I think we will have to wait for it a long time...

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2 hours ago, Peter Goldman said:

@Pada Take a look at my posts. Allowing SOLs into battles with smaller ships has lots of issues and problems that most of you are blind at the moment by the look of it.

your sooooo wrong, I love to fight SoL 's in a frigate

I refuse to sail a sluggish SoL

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