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Forthcoming patch final discussion.

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IndianaGeoff    91
17 minutes ago, Peter Goldman said:

It's like saying that everyone going to the casino is a winner as they have fun playing... But there is only one true winner that leaves happy. Before the wipe, I was happy from most PvP battles as I didn't want to run/escape/save my ship but go balls deep as a good and decent battle even if I lose my ship could repay my loss. Now the majority of players tries to run from the very start or shortly after. Is that what you call good PvP and reward? Things changed 90 degrees to the totally worse than before.

It is a cost problem, not a reward issue.

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Peter Goldman    1,298
1 minute ago, IndianaGeoff said:

It is a cost problem, not a reward issue.

Children receive a lollipop after a visit to the dentist. Cost of the visit is 50-100$ and cost of the lollipop is 2$. A kid leaves the cabinet happy with a smile on the face because he received something after 1h "effort".

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IndianaGeoff    91

This game is feeling more and more like going to the dentist.  A couple hours of poking, prodding and a sore jaw.  No lollypop at the end, just a toothbrush.

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Sir Texas Sir    3,675
36 minutes ago, Peter Goldman said:

We killed some Bellonas and Pavels/Bucentaures are rewards were hello kittying low. We expected something more... We were all disappointed. 

yah we don't even blink an eye at sinking 2nd and 3rds for the most part.  We where capturing so many Aggies the standing order became just sink it.  I don't think I gotten more then 40-50 marks from any big fights since the system was updated and before than I was lucky to get a couple of CM's.  I can go grind PvE and get more in an hour than most PvP.  That is unless your solo of course.  

27 minutes ago, Bearwall said:

I would like to adress a common misunderstanding - that gold is difficult to come by. I've got millions of gold and I've spent millions in gold. Can you get rich by doing PvE? - sure but it will take a butt-load of hours and be boring as shit. Can you become rich doing PvP? - sure but it will involve endless hours of sailing, be boring as shit and take a butt-load of hours. Provided the damn trader (i.e. shitty ppl like me) doesn't fireship fit the trader and dump the cargo. Assholes. How do you get rich fast? - do trading. Afk sailing and a healthy haul = millions in the bank. But - it's boring as shit.

 

The current problem is the butt-load of hours, endless sailing and boring/tedious work involved. 

The problem is the casuals that have only a couple hours a day or week aren't the ones getting rich with millions. I'm one of those guys that can put in any where 2-8 hours in a day depending what is going on and I make a good penny, but I spend a good penny to as I use it to fuel my econ.   These guys like myself hurt the little guys when we out bid every one and drain the system of any possibility of them getting a part of it. I know more than one player that spends all day while he's at work with traders going from port to port collecting stuff and than sales them.   You can't as a causal player compete with players like that.  Pre-Patch when I spent 3-4 hours on PvP EU I made 5 millions do trade runs and Ink asked me how.  I told them and we shortly after got some adjustments.   The thing is the causal guys aren't going to have 3-4 hours to do that and by time they get on every thing is gone from the shops.

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Bach    1,274

ID like to clear up some misconceptions that I think are really just carry over expectations from last years game build.

There only  commodities in the game that matter are Labor hours, CMs, gold and coal.  Everything else can be gotten from those.

Labour hours - these grow over time for all players and increase for every alt you own. Can be stored and sold in contract form.  Highly valuable and require no in game tasks to get. Easy to get and happens automatically. Same as it was last year.

CMs - Awarded for PVE, PvP, and RvR.  A tanked up 5th rare doing fleet mission can harvest 16-20 CMs per mission run. More if the PVE player is highly skilled at it. These are easier to get than most players realize.  These were not used last year and many players don't realize how easy they can get these.

Coal - this resource has the novelty of being the only resource NOT harvestable from uncapturable home ports. Can only be harvested from ports you own and does not spawn in game.  This is both valuable and not valuable. The reason being is that only small quantities are actually needed. It can be over produced and stored or one ship load purchased at a foreign port can last months.  Without interaction with foreign traders this CAN be very hard to get for near one ported nations. This building material was not around last year and many players did not realize they should horde it whenever their nation owns a coal port or even that they SHOULD sell it at foreign ports that can't get it.

GOLD - Easiest commodity in the game to harvest. Under the new patch it's easy to make millions in any one of several income streams.  Ships are actually cheaper now. Not because the gold cost number is lower but because the gold is easier to get. We always had harvesting by PVE, PvP, RvR and trading. But now we have trade goods and it's possible to make a million gold an hour or more if you do it well and understand the system. We also have Nuetral port consumers of repairs and player made building materials. So an easy trade triangle is raw mats, craft then sell to free port, buying trade goods to sell to capital ports. This is an easy revenue stream. Selling materials is the easiest money path for casuals closely followed by trade good runs.

Edited by Bach

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Bearwall    842
2 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

  

The problem is the casuals that have only a couple hours a day or week aren't the ones getting rich with millions. I'm one of those guys that can put in any where 2-8 hours in a day depending what is going on and I make a good penny, but I spend a good penny to as I use it to fuel my econ.   These guys like myself hurt the little guys when we out bid every one and drain the system of any possibility of them getting a part of it. I know more than one player that spends all day while he's at work with traders going from port to port collecting stuff and than sales them.   You can't as a causal player compete with players like that.  Pre-Patch when I spent 3-4 hours on PvP EU I made 5 millions do trade runs and Ink asked me how.  I told them and we shortly after got some adjustments.   The thing is the causal guys aren't going to have 3-4 hours to do that and by time they get on every thing is gone from the shops.

I completely agree in regard to the economy. The casual players has no chance to compete and even if they try they'll just be outbidden by the richer merchants.. And you can still make millions on a few trade runs.. But the problem isn't the trading. The problem is the fact that it is the only way to actually make gold in the game. 

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victor    690
3 minutes ago, Bach said:

ID like to clear up some misconceptions that I think are really just carry over expectations from last years game build.

There only  commodities in the game that matter are Labor hours, CMs, gold and coal.  Everything else can be gotten from those.

Labour hours - these grow over time for all players and increase for every alt you own. Can be stored and sold in contract form.  Highly valuable and require no in game tasks to get. Easy to get and happens automatically. Same as it was last year.

CMs - Awarded for PVE, PvP, and RvR.  A tanked up 5th rare doing fleet mission can harvest 16-20 CMs per mission run. More if the PVE player is highly skilled at it. These are easier to get than most players realize.  These were not used last year and many players don't realize how easy they can get these.

Coal - this resource has the novelty of being the only resource NOT harvestable from uncapturable home ports. Can only be harvested from ports you own and does not spawn in game.  This is both valuable and not valuable. The reason being is that only small quantities are actually needed. It can be over produced and stored or one ship load purchased at a foreign port can last months.  Without interaction with foreign traders this CAN be very hard to get for near one ported nations. This building material was not around last year and many players did not realize they should horde it whenever their nation owns a coal port or even that they SHOULD sell it at foreign ports that can't get it.

GOLD - Easiest commodity in the game to harvest. Under the new patch it's easy to make millions in any one of several incom streams.  Ships are actually cheaper now. Not because the gold cost number is lower but because the gold is easier to get. We always had harvesting by PVE, PvP, RvR and trading. But now we have trade goods and it's possible to make a million golden hour or more if you do it well and understand the system. We also have Nuetral port consumers of repairs and player made building materials. So an easy trade triangle of  raw mats port to free port to capital ports is an easy revenue stream.

Also Iron ore, trust me. Rather high cost for harvesting and a crapton of it needed for crafting a sufficient amount of high-end long cannons

Edited by victor

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Quineloe    1,137
22 hours ago, Barbancourt (rownd) said:

...intriguing!  I've got Mortar Handbook, but I'm assuming that isn't one of the "right" ones.  ;)

Mortar Brigs kill First Rates. Ask RUS Techn05. So yes, that's one of the right ones.

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1) Just keep Open World AI fleets roaming around so players who's game time and schedule don't permit them to participate in conquest have something to fight other than traders.

2) Increase the XP and gold rewards for hunting OW fleets. No point spending hours sailing around hunting fleets when you can get as much or more gold and XP doing mission right outside your capital.

2) Don't make participation in Port Battles a factor for obtaining anything a player needs to have the biggest and best ships they can get.

3) Don't limit hostility generating missions to local neighboring regions only as implied. The ability to strike deep into an enemy's "back yard" is realistic. But doing so should also be much more difficult. Simply eliminating the free ports right next door will do this. If a nation wants to strike deep into the heart of enemy territory they should be able to. But they should expect to have to sail their assault force a long way to do it (realistic) and expect a long arduous sail home if they fail (also realistic).

Bottom line is even the proposed changes still make the game to Conquest focused and not enough open world fighting focused.

All you really had to do to fix what we have right now is give each nation a set of 3-5 unconquerable regions that contained everything they needed to build any ship they want of average quality, so that even if they were beaten back to their starting ports, they could rebuild and start conquering again.

And then dump the marks system and just make it such that the resources and mats to make the most coveted upgrades or toughest and fastest hulls, etc, could only be had in the regions that would be fought over, which could all be neutral regions as currently planned.

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On ‎8‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 5:37 PM, z4ys said:

Why always pve in a pvp game?

Because without some PVE on a map this big with even an average 500 player peak pop you would have a hard time finding anything to fight. This is not World of Warships 1800.

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DrZoidberg    92

If u read the posts in this topic, u can see, that most players think that PVP is not supported or completly supressed, OS sailing time too high. Problems what egzists from the start or after wipe. How hard it should be for developers to change PVP rewards? Like 1-5 hour work to make some multipliers. Players just leaving day by day, and nothing happens, as always. Players just warn them to make national balance or alliance system to avoid the supressed nation issue. Nothing happens with that too for at least half a year. Just casinged, dumb ideas one after one! The new clan war system will be chaotic with many side effects and player loss again. I want just one reply from developers, why that system will help to get more player, and how it solve the long boring sailing time, the PVP support, the suppressed nation problem. I suggested them a far better system with solutions to all of thier problems. I started to play games like 20 years before, but never saw worse developing. The best is that they will never understand that they are the responsible for thier fail. As they dont understand how to make players happy, they will be always poor, as intended. What about Naval Action Legends? Naval Action Legend will be unviable too, as that game should have at least 3-4x more ships in it, like as will have. With this low ship number it wont be exciting enough to get players in.

Edited by DrZoidberg

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z4ys    1,614
26 minutes ago, DrZoidberg said:

...

To me it looks like they gave up developing. They do that announced patch (unity 5 was made for legends that why it was so quickly done) polish up the Ui and there we go. Like you can read between the lines the game is made for 30- maybe 100h of fun which it can deliver. To make it even more fun in the first 30h they have to get rid of vets player that destroy the newcomer experience by pvp and RvR. That's why 3/4 of the map wil l become a safe zone. I guess they hope to make legends appealing for vets. With that in mind I doubt we will get any game history making changes. As I said the game is rdy for delivering 30h of fun and that's all what seems to matter.

 

That's how I would rate NA at the moment.

Naval action a Venus trap to suck people's lifetime A pvp MP  with the promise to experience Nelson in the age of sail  that is actually a single coop vs AI with experience nelson only at Trafalgar. If you looking for a 30 h age of sail fun game NA is maybe definitely a game for you. But if you are looking for adventure that is a big part of the experience in the age of sail too, you maybe definitely shouldn't buy it. 

 

But yeah I still want to believe that's just a phase.

Edited by z4ys

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The Wren    92

Enough of the talking already, when is this patch supposed to drop? I feel like I'm just wasting my time reading these forums while getting my hopes crushed everyday lie a kid that has discovered that his Dad leaves the gifts on Christmas Eve and not Santa Clause. :( If there is no actual projected date can the Devs at least let us know that? Maybe I'll just check back on a monthly basis. Every time I send in the mortgage payment I'll sign onto NA to see if the patch has dropped. ;)

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IndianaGeoff    91
1 hour ago, The Wren said:

Enough of the talking already, when is this patch supposed to drop? I feel like I'm just wasting my time reading these forums while getting my hopes crushed everyday lie a kid that has discovered that his Dad leaves the gifts on Christmas Eve and not Santa Clause. :( If there is no actual projected date can the Devs at least let us know that? Maybe I'll just check back on a monthly basis. Every time I send in the mortgage payment I'llgn onto NA to see if the patch has dropped. ;)

Many of the changed are not even on test yet.  Maybe next week.  You can probably skip checking until October.

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Jean Ribault    849
16 minutes ago, IndianaGeoff said:

Many of the changed are not even on test yet.  Maybe next week.  You can probably skip checking until October.

Yeah, the Halloween Patch.  Since it's likely to be end of month.  Trick or Treat, Here's My Fleet, My Alt Just Told Me You're the One to Beat.

At least drop the ship paints for us so we can dress up for Halloween.

Edited by Jean Ribault

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3 hours ago, z4ys said:

 Like you can read between the lines the game is made for 30- maybe 100h of fun which it can deliver. To make it even more fun in the first 30h they have to get rid of vets player that destroy the newcomer experience by pvp and RvR.

>The pvp and rvr is ruining the pvp server on the rvr game! We need to get rid of the long time players who are ruining the game by playing it!

U feking wot m8?

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z4ys    1,614
9 minutes ago, John Cavanaugh said:

>The pvp and rvr is ruining the pvp server on the rvr game! We need to get rid of the long time players who are ruining the game by playing it!

U feking wot m8?

Look at the upcoming changes and tell me the intention is not to separate pvp/RvR from the newcomers. How long will the RvR patch be fun? Forever? Will it keep players 1000+h in the game? How many players actually do RvR 3%? It's not the real land of honey it's just a picture of it in front of Detroit.

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5 minutes ago, z4ys said:

Look at the upcoming changes and tell me the intention is not to separate pvp/RvR from the newcomers. How long will the RvR patch be fun? Forever? Will it keep players 1000+h in the game? How many players actually do RvR 3%? It's not the real land of honey it's just a picture of it in front of Detroit.

High sec didn't kill rvr or pvp in eve, it won't kill it in na. What will kill na? A stagnant user base that trickles off slowly over time. So long as people have a reason to want control of different ports (e.g. For control of crooked cedar, or Cartagena tar, etc) there will be incentive for RvR above and beyond enjoyment. So long as clans hold territory they must defend, there will be a large portion of the player base maintaining a presence outside of high sec. we will no longer raid capitals to be sure, instead we will raid clan held ports. Additionally- devs have said clan tax will be UP TO national tax rate - ergo most will be lower. Clan held ports will therefore be a natural choice for trade and production due to being much cheaper - more people spend significant time outside of high sec for economic reasons. What does this patch change? It gives noobs a buffer and carebears a place to mission safely yes. It also concentrates people into Econ areas outside of that area thus making pvp areas more centralized and easy to find. Clans wont maintain upkeep on a whole coast - just a few ports  for crafting needs and upgrade materials - so we will all know exactly where to go for pvp. Don't sail up and down panama for pvp, go straight to the 2 or 3 British or Spanish ports and you'll find the traders, the people grinding slots on their PB ships because they don't have dock space for 1 in high sec and again where they defend for each of their ship types. This is not a deathknell this is a breath of life  

 

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z4ys    1,614
1 hour ago, John Cavanaugh said:

High sec didn't kill rvr or pvp in eve, it won't kill it in na. What will kill na? A stagnant user base that trickles off slowly over time. So long as people have a reason to want control of different ports (e.g. For control of crooked cedar, or Cartagena tar, etc) there will be incentive for RvR above and beyond enjoyment. So long as clans hold territory they must defend, there will be a large portion of the player base maintaining a presence outside of high sec. we will no longer raid capitals to be sure, instead we will raid clan held ports. Additionally- devs have said clan tax will be UP TO national tax rate - ergo most will be lower. Clan held ports will therefore be a natural choice for trade and production due to being much cheaper - more people spend significant time outside of high sec for economic reasons. What does this patch change? It gives noobs a buffer and carebears a place to mission safely yes. It also concentrates people into Econ areas outside of that area thus making pvp areas more centralized and easy to find. Clans wont maintain upkeep on a whole coast - just a few ports  for crafting needs and upgrade materials - so we will all know exactly where to go for pvp. Don't sail up and down panama for pvp, go straight to the 2 or 3 British or Spanish ports and you'll find the traders, the people grinding slots on their PB ships because they don't have dock space for 1 in high sec and again where they defend for each of their ship types. This is not a deathknell this is a breath of life  

 

Again who cares about a few special resources when everything is accessible with low or no risk? When something is clear then that people prefer less risk. Why bother to haul resources out of the center when gathering resources is taxation free? 3% are doing RvR the other don't care about dots. Ofc the 3% will love the patch but there is still no content for the rest of 97%.

So overall it's just about to separate both parties. Make the experience good for newcomers in their first 30h of gameplay. Is everyone using his blind eye or why nobody sees that they are doing the bare minimum to launch that game? 

Look at admins recent post and tell me that you expect any new patch besides ui for NA.

I am not telling the RvR patch is bad in general I try to tell that this will be all. And that the 97% will quit before they show up in the map center. So who you wanna fight besides the 3% that play there?

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Slim Jimmerson    132

 

16 hours ago, Dauntless7_Original said:

 

2) Don't make participation in Port Battles a factor for obtaining anything a player needs to have the biggest and best ships they can get.

3) Don't limit hostility generating missions to local neighboring regions only as implied. The ability to strike deep into an enemy's "back yard" is realistic. But doing so should also be much more difficult. Simply eliminating the free ports right next door will do this. If a nation wants to strike deep into the heart of enemy territory they should be able to. But they should expect to have to sail their assault force a long way to do it (realistic) and expect a long arduous sail home if they fail (also realistic).

 

No its not realistic, realistically speaking you wouldn't get enough logistics to sail across the atlantic with 25 ships and expect to take a capital port surrounded by hundreds. Realistically speaking, even if you DID manage to capture the port, you wouldn't hold it for more than a few days since the port would get 0 supplies and 0 soldiers being surrounded by the enemy, and ships would pound your ships at port all day every day.

So no, a capture lattice needs to be implemented to prevent the RVR mingery an unrealistic captures that drive people away

Edited by Slim Jimmerson

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47 minutes ago, z4ys said:

Why bother to haul resources out of the center when gathering resources is taxation free?

How does one acquire white oak, teak, Bermuda cedar, all of which are high demand woods and thus usually have a port Ai stock of 0? By contract. By contract which must be frequently updated. Which will be taxed each time at the new aforementioned national tax rate of 25%. The swedes on pvpeu carried out an invasion of pirate waters, and when they did so they immediately seized the ports producing white oak. Within days of that we were sinking their trader brigs loaded down with white oak. People will continue to want their woods, and at a better price. That's why people are willing to sail to Bermuda itself to get cedar cheap rather than pay 500-1000 a log in their nation's capital. Do you honestly believe that nobody is going to rush for control of special woods and upgrade materials ports so that they can control the tax and thus the market? I will bet you, on PvpEu, that within 5 days of wipe we will see conquest begin for control of crooked cedar, Cartagena tar, and white oak producing ports. ask yourself what kind of money comes in by tax when 10 people refresh their crooked cedar bids every other hour, when there are bids up right now, during a period when most of the population is taking a break, for 25k a log, and I've seen it over 60k. A conservative estimate would have that one port netting an income through tax >750k every ~2 hours. And this is for control of limited resources - it will adjust for inflation. When you can make 500k for a mission, people will outbid competition to higher prices. Expect the account of the person who owns ragged cay to have 100s of millions a month after wipe.

 

you think resource gathering is free? The overwhelmingly most expensive parts of ships is the wood and upgrades - which necessarily must be bought via contract due to demand. Do you even play this game, or are you one of the people who enjoys the benefits of being in a clan without knowing what actually goes in to building your ships? 

 

This is patch provides extraordinary incentives to control territory, how can you think it will have all population in high sec only? 

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Skully    1,025
1 minute ago, Johnny Rotten said:

Hurry up and roll out the testbed.

We're on testbed, why not join us?

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Cmdr RideZ    647

Agreed with some points here, just to be more specific...

10vs1 situation should give decreased reward for those 10. That 1 should still get reward to get back on his feet, there should be reward for losers.  That 1 cannot have increased reward, or else alt abuse.

PvP should have higher rewards than PvE, for winning and losing side.  We want that people play PvP and do not grind bots, right?  So make it worth it.

PvP does not need rewards but has to make it possible.

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