Forthcoming patch final discussion.

[Slim McSauce]

2 hours ago, victor said:

I'll try with an example: in order to craft a consti you need 75 combat marks (for the permits), so this means that only for marks the price of a consti will be 750.000 gold. Then you shall add the materials, labor hours and a crapton of iron ore for a full set of long cannons .... at the end of a process a consti will be sold on the market more or less with the same price (not less than 1 million gold) of a 1st rate before the patch (and this means that a one dura consti today will cost twice the price of a 4 dura consti before the mega patch, so it will cost - for each dura - eight times more).

Add to the scenario that - after the mega patch - making gold ingame is much more difficult than before and you will get an idea about why so many people are talking about broken economy.

That's not broken, that's economics.

If you grinded AI for a few hours, you'd be rich selling those for 10k a pop. Its probably only 1 guy smart enough to do it, that's why he hasn't gotten undercut >10k. Jump into the action before the market shifts again

Edited August 30, 2017 by Slim Jimmerson

[Barbancourt]

33 minutes ago, Quineloe said:

If you think knowledge books aren't powerful, you're using the wrong ones.

...intriguing!  I've got Mortar Handbook, but I'm assuming that isn't one of the "right" ones. 

[Jean Ribault]

1 hour ago, Barbancourt (rownd) said:

...intriguing!  I've got Mortar Handbook, but I'm assuming that isn't one of the "right" ones. 

 

But why should they all be OP?  The only true disadvantage I can see is that ALT play can circumvent the RNG on books.  But then again, unfortunately they can circumvent many things in this game

[Sir Texas Sir]

12 hours ago, Hodo said:

Repairs on the 6th and 7th rates are already cheap.   A Lynx requires 2 hull repairs per repair action, and 3 sail per rigging repair.   The Snow takes 4 Hull and 3 Sail.   The Brig is 4 and 3.     Privateer is 3 and 3.   

They dont get much cheaper than that.  

 

That is all nice and dandy until you try to find repairs in a port that isn't going to cost them an arm and a leg if they are even stocked up.  So instead out clan just stocks the crap out of the them in the warehouse and gives them out before we go out to do anything big.  Every one gets mandatory stocks of what will be needed for the fights.

11 hours ago, Skully said:

Won't happen. It might be better to start a separate discussion on this, because the reasons run deep.

I put them up often enough at $1250/p. Cheap, hell no. Needed to fund campaigns, yes.

And as I said before, some suggestions have a dark flip side. Seeding cheap repairs is ruining the market on which new players can make money.

For myself, as Midshipman, I got 50K in 1 play session. Just sailing a bit, trading a bit and working the market. (And I was holding back.)

That is half the problem folks make them and than charge and arm in a leg.  Up till the patch we keep pirates capital very low cost, but that was cause my clan was pretty much it with a few stragglers.  After patch we have so many folks trying to make money we can't police them the way we did (and no we won't use Pirate on Pirate to do so like folks think we do.)  That and folks like to buy them when cheap than they take them over to La Tort or Some where else and sale them and make even more money.  Would be nice if the shops seeded some that can't be resold, only be bought at a nice low price.   I try to encourage new players to start there econ out by making repairs since every thing can be gotten at Mort and one other port (Islet or lIttle Inguana) to make Hull or Sail repairs.

10 hours ago, Red Dragon 13 said:

Admin is quite silent lately, maybe we are having news soon...

Even though I been MIA playing other games i noticed that too, normally when they get silent it means they are busy and something might about to get updated.  Hopefully Town Management is close to be ready and will hit Test Bed soon.

10 hours ago, Skully said:

Last I looked Euro Truck Simulator does not have any gankers. 

That reminds me I haven't played American Trucker in a while, a few updates have happen.  Prob should pop in and see how bad I can wreck things....never let me drive a big rig folks...lol

Even worse the new AI traders are armed 75% of the time and for a new player that thought he had an easy target to find out it's armed.  I think the reason we don't see a reload issue with the traders have small crew is cause every one remember a while back they reduced the crew needed for 6lbrs and below to help new players and the crew kill was so easy with grape. I think they need to put the numbers back up since you can't easly (without stern camping ) grape shallows to death like you could pre-patch.

[Ehutchin78]

I just spent the sum of the last two day trying to find coal. My nation is no longer able to provide it in the store and my production port was seized. 

I have two ships I was able to capture from AI. Thank god capturing AI ships is back, or I would have nothing to sail.

Why in the world would I PVP, and likely lose, to try and gain a PVP mark? I need like 100 of those to get anything good. 

So I just sail around fighting AI bots for money I can't use on anything I need. FRICKIN COAL!!

I was/am a level 41 crafter before the wipe. I haven't built a ship in 6 months!! How on earth am I supposed to get materials to build a ship now? 

I literally shudder to think what goes through the mind of a new player. It's not a grind, it's like scratching pavement with your fingernails thinking your making progress. 

Hutch

[victor]

8 hours ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

That's not broken, that's economics.

If you grinded AI for a few hours, you'd be rich selling those for 10k a pop. Its probably only 1 guy smart enough to do it, that's why he hasn't gotten undercut >10k. Jump into the action before the market shifts again

Economics is not the Bible, it's just a tool. And in a video game the aim of this tool is to produce goods that are consumed by players playing other contents. So, basically, a ingame economics is broken as far as it makes so difficult to replace necessary  goods (i.e. - in NA - ships) that could induce a part of players to quit the game in case they loose those goods. 

Now, look at the numbers of players on the servers and ask yourself how much this deflative (I'd say rather stagflative) economic system is helping the game.

Edited August 31, 2017 by victor

[Skully]

6 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

That is half the problem folks make them and than charge and arm in a leg.  Up till the patch we keep pirates capital very low cost, but that was cause my clan was pretty much it with a few stragglers.  After patch we have so many folks trying to make money we can't police them the way we did (and no we won't use Pirate on Pirate to do so like folks think we do.)  That and folks like to buy them when cheap than they take them over to La Tort or Some where else and sale them and make even more money.  Would be nice if the shops seeded some that can't be resold, only be bought at a nice low price.   I try to encourage new players to start there econ out by making repairs since every thing can be gotten at Mort and one other port (Islet or lIttle Inguana) to make Hull or Sail repairs.

And half the problem is half the solution.  As you say yourself it is a good market for rookies to start in.

The other half of the solution is putting up good buy orders. Hull Repairs cost 488.2 to produce plus 5.45 lh. At 50/lh plus sharing the 10% contract cost, you should bid at 780. A fair crafter would honor that bid and fulfill the order. (Before my Clan mates get any ideas ... 1000/p )

16 hours ago, Red Dragon 13 said:

Admin is quite silent lately, maybe we are having news soon...

6 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Even though I been MIA playing other games i noticed that too, normally when they get silent it means they are busy and something might about to get updated.  Hopefully Town Management is close to be ready and will hit Test Bed soon.

A new build goes up internally roughly every other day, so keep your fingers crossed. 

[Vizzini]

As far as the value of combat marks goes, it's tied to the value of labour contracts imho and labour hours in general which replenish automatically . You can also fish afk if you so desire.

 

175 Combat marks = 1 victory mark = 10 Labour Contracts = ??? Gold depending on going rate. For example if 1 Labour contract goes for 80k then you can easily get a good indicator for the value of a Combat mark.  Lab Contracts I have been selling for 120k fairly regularly

High prices for items is often a consequence of more gold chasing fewer items. Rare upgrades ( if still rare via rng) will keep rising in price. Victory marks are still getting handed out , combat marks are easy to get, sell stuff you craft to the ai .... Hull repairs sell at over 1k each to the ai from memory

 

There is no excuse for being poor , just poor excuses ....

[victor]

2 hours ago, Vizzini said:

As far as the value of combat marks goes, it's tied to the value of labour contracts imho and labour hours in general which replenish automatically . You can also fish afk if you so desire.

 

175 Combat marks = 1 victory mark = 10 Labour Contracts = ??? Gold depending on going rate. For example if 1 Labour contract goes for 80k then you can easily get a good indicator for the value of a Combat mark.  Lab Contracts I have been selling for 120k fairly regularly

High prices for items is often a consequence of more gold chasing fewer items. Rare upgrades ( if still rare via rng) will keep rising in price. Victory marks are still getting handed out , combat marks are easy to get, sell stuff you craft to the ai .... Hull repairs sell at over 1k each to the ai from memory

 

There is no excuse for being poor , just poor excuses ....

except this is a game and not a work ... anyway the problem are not selling prices themseves: the issue is in the ratio between the gold/time costs for building or getting useful items and the amount of gold per hour available to an average player making normal stuffs in the game. If this ratio is too low (which means that to get useful items the average player shall play too many hours) then the game economy may be considered broken, since it may lead - on the long term - a lot of players to quit the game.

BTW @admin is there any ETA for the changes?

Edited August 31, 2017 by victor

[admin]

11 hours ago, Ehutchin78 said:

I just spent the sum of the last two day trying to find coal. My nation is no longer able to provide it in the store and my production port was seized. 

 

coal is coming back as a universal resource next patch
charcoal will be removed from cannon making

taxation and city improvements will be a conquest coal - resources were not found to be a good goal for conquest and access to them would be improved and increased (with the exception of gold silver and trading resources).

[jodgi]

6 hours ago, Vizzini said:

There is no excuse for being poor , just poor excuses ....

Well, hello there... PvE loverboy!

[Vizzini]

Just now, jodgi said:

Well, hello there... PvE loverboy!

Why thankyou Sirtrollalot 

[Hodo]

12 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

That is all nice and dandy until you try to find repairs in a port that isn't going to cost them an arm and a leg if they are even stocked up.  So instead out clan just stocks the crap out of the them in the warehouse and gives them out before we go out to do anything big.  Every one gets mandatory stocks of what will be needed for the fights.

If you buy all of the materials off of the market, I think the cost per repair is still sub 750 per unit.   You can make 50 per run which is enough for most 6th and 7th rates for a few days of constant combat if you are half way decent.   That is for hull repairs.  Rigging repairs are a bit more but you can get those pretty easily off of NPC ships.

[jodgi]

Just now, Vizzini said:

Why thankyou Sirtrollalot 

Ok, then mr. Seriousface. I can do seriousface too. To get rich (fast) you need to do quite a bit of PvE with silly bots or silly arbitrary trading items. It's not hard at all, it's worse than that; it's boring. So if you think there's no excuse for being poor you demand that we all gorge ourselves in PvE. hello kitty that. I take a stand against PvE even if it's probably as effective as pissing right into a strong headwind.

Since wipe I've actually done an experiment on how well minimal PvE can support a character in OW. I've sold guns at fair prices continually. Yesterday I broke 1 million gold in usable profit. Minimal PvE'ers will have to find a sugardaddy or a bunch of grinding minions to have fun with fighting ships unless they're content with little ships.

[Vizzini]

1 minute ago, jodgi said:

Ok, then mr. Seriousface. I can do seriousface too.

Snip the rest of the rant. I don't do PVE very much unless that is all there is left to do. Mathematics I am fairly good at though and although I have only been playing this game since wipe time, it's not hard to gather gold and stuff IMHO

 

Horses for courses I guess , each to their own, no need for the passive aggressive insult

[IndianaGeoff]

34 minutes ago, Peter Goldman said:

Combat marks are worth now about 7k. For killing Indefatigable you get 43 combat marks + about 40-50k gold reward. If you sell combat marks, it's alltogether 350k worth of gold. Killing 2 Surprises gives almost 50 combat marks. I keep saying that they need to tweak rewards for killing bigger ships (4th rates and above) as it's pointless killing them considering production costs. You get maybe 25-50% worth for killing compared to sell prices.

You can keep living with purely PvP, no PvE if you know how to play solo (solo you take 100% of rewards and loot). Nonetheless, I believe they need to up gold rewards (including damage gold that must come back) and combat marks for 4th rates and above.

PvP is a zero sum game.  Actually a loss for marks.  For you to get your 43 marks, someone had to grind 50 of them, plus the mats.  You need a big PvE base to support the PvP life.  Even if PvP were on it's face profitable, for the vast majority of players it would be a loss.

PvP rewards do not need to be raised.  Clearly, the rewards are good enough as is given the state of the game.

[IndianaGeoff]

No, I have not killed a first rate.  PvP is it's own reward.  It does not need further incentives.

[Sir Texas Sir]

1 hour ago, Peter Goldman said:

Do you know what are the rewards for killing the 1st rate? Answer my question, please and then we can talk further. Also, there is no damage gold, most battles for players end with "No Rewards" and it's frustrating.

I do kinda wonder, but any 1st rates as the one battle we had with some against us I was to busy chasing Frigates in my Vict (doesn't work to well).  I did capuere a L'Ocean out side with same Vict (no repairs left on it).   Sadly I didn't check my share log of the credits/xp I got from that port battle, but it wasn't very much cause once again you share your kills and rewards with other players.  So in port battles I have yet to get very much CM's when there was a fight and before hand the system wasn't updated and you got very little.   

Though the nice L'Ocean that the US donated to me was handed off to a player that just made curse.  Could of easy built him one, but we figure lets recycle the other nations ships first encase he screws something up and get it sunk.

So has any one solo killed a 1st Rate in PvP?  What was the rewards and what ship was you in?

[Bart Smith]

Good rewards from PvP should be only from fights in equal numbers so maybe we can cut ganks culture this way. Advantage 1,5:1 may give little reward but from ratio 2:1 no rewards at all only satisfaction or shame (if any)...

[Guest]

I would like to adress a common misunderstanding - that gold is difficult to come by. I've got millions of gold and I've spent millions in gold. Can you get rich by doing PvE? - sure but it will take a butt-load of hours and be boring as shit. Can you become rich doing PvP? - sure but it will involve endless hours of sailing, be boring as shit and take a butt-load of hours. Provided the damn trader (i.e. shitty ppl like me) doesn't fireship fit the trader and dump the cargo. Assholes. How do you get rich fast? - do trading. Afk sailing and a healthy haul = millions in the bank. But - it's boring as shit.

 

The current problem is the butt-load of hours, endless sailing and boring/tedious work involved. 

[IndianaGeoff]

17 minutes ago, Peter Goldman said:

It's like saying that everyone going to the casino is a winner as they have fun playing... But there is only one true winner that leaves happy. Before the wipe, I was happy from most PvP battles as I didn't want to run/escape/save my ship but go balls deep as a good and decent battle even if I lose my ship could repay my loss. Now the majority of players tries to run from the very start or shortly after. Is that what you call good PvP and reward? Things changed 90 degrees to the totally worse than before.

It is a cost problem, not a reward issue.

[IndianaGeoff]

This game is feeling more and more like going to the dentist.  A couple hours of poking, prodding and a sore jaw.  No lollypop at the end, just a toothbrush.

[Sir Texas Sir]

36 minutes ago, Peter Goldman said:

We killed some Bellonas and Pavels/Bucentaures are rewards were hello kittying low. We expected something more... We were all disappointed. 

yah we don't even blink an eye at sinking 2nd and 3rds for the most part.  We where capturing so many Aggies the standing order became just sink it.  I don't think I gotten more then 40-50 marks from any big fights since the system was updated and before than I was lucky to get a couple of CM's.  I can go grind PvE and get more in an hour than most PvP.  That is unless your solo of course.  

27 minutes ago, Bearwall said:

I would like to adress a common misunderstanding - that gold is difficult to come by. I've got millions of gold and I've spent millions in gold. Can you get rich by doing PvE? - sure but it will take a butt-load of hours and be boring as shit. Can you become rich doing PvP? - sure but it will involve endless hours of sailing, be boring as shit and take a butt-load of hours. Provided the damn trader (i.e. shitty ppl like me) doesn't fireship fit the trader and dump the cargo. Assholes. How do you get rich fast? - do trading. Afk sailing and a healthy haul = millions in the bank. But - it's boring as shit.

 

The current problem is the butt-load of hours, endless sailing and boring/tedious work involved. 

The problem is the casuals that have only a couple hours a day or week aren't the ones getting rich with millions. I'm one of those guys that can put in any where 2-8 hours in a day depending what is going on and I make a good penny, but I spend a good penny to as I use it to fuel my econ.   These guys like myself hurt the little guys when we out bid every one and drain the system of any possibility of them getting a part of it. I know more than one player that spends all day while he's at work with traders going from port to port collecting stuff and than sales them.   You can't as a causal player compete with players like that.  Pre-Patch when I spent 3-4 hours on PvP EU I made 5 millions do trade runs and Ink asked me how.  I told them and we shortly after got some adjustments.   The thing is the causal guys aren't going to have 3-4 hours to do that and by time they get on every thing is gone from the shops.

[Bach]

ID like to clear up some misconceptions that I think are really just carry over expectations from last years game build.

There only  commodities in the game that matter are Labor hours, CMs, gold and coal.  Everything else can be gotten from those.

Labour hours - these grow over time for all players and increase for every alt you own. Can be stored and sold in contract form.  Highly valuable and require no in game tasks to get. Easy to get and happens automatically. Same as it was last year.

CMs - Awarded for PVE, PvP, and RvR.  A tanked up 5th rare doing fleet mission can harvest 16-20 CMs per mission run. More if the PVE player is highly skilled at it. These are easier to get than most players realize.  These were not used last year and many players don't realize how easy they can get these.

Coal - this resource has the novelty of being the only resource NOT harvestable from uncapturable home ports. Can only be harvested from ports you own and does not spawn in game.  This is both valuable and not valuable. The reason being is that only small quantities are actually needed. It can be over produced and stored or one ship load purchased at a foreign port can last months.  Without interaction with foreign traders this CAN be very hard to get for near one ported nations. This building material was not around last year and many players did not realize they should horde it whenever their nation owns a coal port or even that they SHOULD sell it at foreign ports that can't get it.

GOLD - Easiest commodity in the game to harvest. Under the new patch it's easy to make millions in any one of several income streams.  Ships are actually cheaper now. Not because the gold cost number is lower but because the gold is easier to get. We always had harvesting by PVE, PvP, RvR and trading. But now we have trade goods and it's possible to make a million gold an hour or more if you do it well and understand the system. We also have Nuetral port consumers of repairs and player made building materials. So an easy trade triangle is raw mats, craft then sell to free port, buying trade goods to sell to capital ports. This is an easy revenue stream. Selling materials is the easiest money path for casuals closely followed by trade good runs.

Edited August 31, 2017 by Bach

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

  

The problem is the casuals that have only a couple hours a day or week aren't the ones getting rich with millions. I'm one of those guys that can put in any where 2-8 hours in a day depending what is going on and I make a good penny, but I spend a good penny to as I use it to fuel my econ.   These guys like myself hurt the little guys when we out bid every one and drain the system of any possibility of them getting a part of it. I know more than one player that spends all day while he's at work with traders going from port to port collecting stuff and than sales them.   You can't as a causal player compete with players like that.  Pre-Patch when I spent 3-4 hours on PvP EU I made 5 millions do trade runs and Ink asked me how.  I told them and we shortly after got some adjustments.   The thing is the causal guys aren't going to have 3-4 hours to do that and by time they get on every thing is gone from the shops.

I completely agree in regard to the economy. The casual players has no chance to compete and even if they try they'll just be outbidden by the richer merchants.. And you can still make millions on a few trade runs.. But the problem isn't the trading. The problem is the fact that it is the only way to actually make gold in the game.