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Forthcoming patch final discussion.

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Prater    5,325
2 hours ago, George Washington said:

He payed for NA way before NA Legends was introduced. He did not ask for Legends. So, have respect for all opinions please. For example I don't give rats about Legends and never will, my main focus is NA. If I would ever pay real money it would only be in NA and not Legends. 

He paid for Naval Action when it was how it was.  What did we have back then?  Same map, slower speeds.  How many hours does he have?  Most of us have gotten the full value out of Naval Action that we get with most other games.  He was warned before he purchased the game, and there were plenty of youtube videos, about the amount of sailing you do and the size of the world.  He doesn't like that?  That's his fault, he still bought the game despite all the stuff out there saying that was the case.

1 hour ago, jodgi said:

As I understand it, that's impossible.

If PvP'ers can fight without partaking in any upkeep save a trivial amount, eco breaks down. Or so they tell me.

Also, loss wouldn't matter, and that is somehow terrible to some people.

...

Actually it's worse. Pve-ecocrafters can play that game 24/7 without doing any pvp. Pure-pvp'ers aren't so lucky.

I'm of the opinion now that loss only really matters for 1-4th rates.  Loss for 7th rates should be tiny, 6th rates slim, 5th rates manageable (casual can afford say 4 a day).  4th rates, 1 a day.  This includes cannons, ship, modules.  For this to work, we'd need different module costs for the ship class.  Making copper plating or any other module for a 7th rate would be cheaper than for a 4th rate.  Of course, I've made up these numbers, but they should give the idea.

 

Edited by Prater

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Skully    1,022
1 hour ago, Prater said:

He paid for Naval Action when it was how it was.

@fox2run is looking for a game in which he can play solo within a Nation without wanting or needing to pay attention to his fellow Nationals. (He can correct me if I am wrong.)

How realistic is this wish?

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1 hour ago, Prater said:

Most of us have gotten the full value out of Naval Action that we get with most other games.

Do you know what full value is? It is when you reach lvl 100 and ask to add more levels so you can beat those. You beat extra 100 lvls and reset to 0 and start over. You play every night and remain top 5 in every game and return to compete more. This is money well invested. 

Now saying that money that were put into NA is well invested is questionable. Just to get a casual player into action will take weeks before he leaves his home waters and tries to pvp on his own. Half of them will never make it. Why not? Lack of information and ingame tutorials, long travel time, cost vs risk, repetitive boring outdated content. We have no tools to let players explore the world in quick and reasonable matter once again benefiting to slicing the rope we are hanging on. 

In the end, players reached max lvl, tested every possible ship and got bored waiting for content that would make them come back and play more.

For example dailys, rewards for actions, random rewards found while traveling, random missions, events (storms, hurricanes, tornadoes, lightnings heavy rain and wind),  aggressive privateers and cutthoats NPCs, open world items found on defeated NPCs, customization of player favorite ship, recognition of long hours spent in game. I mean come on, I can go on and on all day long, but will it ever make it in the game? This is what will keep players returning for more and then pvp, port battle and glory. 

Right now NA is one way road with dead end and we need to make that dead end loop back in circle of fun and entertainment. 

Edited by George Washington

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Challenge    84

@George WashingtonWhat is the point of tutorials and manuals when the game changes faster than you could edit them? Yes, it's a tough learning curve, but if you want new players to be prepared faster... TEACH THEM. You are the tutorial for your clan, nation, or what ever. That is one of the advantages to the PvE server; the players would rather help and teach instead of crush and shit talk.

Edited by Challenge

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10 minutes ago, Challenge said:

@George WashingtonWhat is the point of tutorials and manuals when the game changes faster than you could edit them? Yes, it's a tough learning curve, but if you want new players to be prepared faster... TEACH THEM. You are the tutorial for your clan, nation, or what ever. That is one of the advantages to the PvE server; the players would rather help and teach instead of crush and shit talk.

You can't teach them through chat and no one will. What you do is you create an animated simple to understand 10 minute training mission with small starting pack rewards, then you let them loose and watch them thrive. 

-Learn to Understand ship specs

-Learn to Mount Guns

-Learn to Install Mods

-Learn to build outpost and structures

-Learn to gather materials and sell them

-Understand simple market

etc.. pack all this in 10 minute mission and we got auto trainer going that will be recruiting more players than ever before. 

Edited by George Washington

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Challenge    84

Apparently, George, that isn't working very well. There are plenty of "how to" videos on YouTube for NA, but still there are people who don't know where to go or what to do. The game is complex and sometimes you just need to take the time to encourage people when the learning curve is as steep as this one.

And you are wrong: you can teach people. But you have to want to.

Edited by Challenge

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5 minutes ago, Challenge said:

Apparently, George, that isn't working very well. There are plenty of "how to" videos on YouTube for NA, but still there are people who don't know where to go or what to do. The game is complex and sometimes you just need to take the time to encourage people when the learning curve is as steep as this one.

And you are wrong: you can teach people. But you have to want to.

Once again, you tube is not game related and not a single game developer should send their customers to watch some videos created by fans. That is just low as it can be. Professionals create ingame short training missions that take care of this problem.  

Edited by George Washington

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Jean Ribault    845

Training is multi-faceted.  I dare say a video in and of itself is inadequate, and person to person is very effective.  That's one of the many reasons why people join clans.

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Challenge    84

Here you go George. All very much NA related; by some of the better players. Perhaps you do not learn well from other people, but I have not found that true of most new players.

Naval Action Guides - YouTube

Naval Action Tutorial 1: Ship anatomy - YouTube

Naval Action ultra Quick Start Guide - YouTube

Perhaps, if you wait until the game is in a more finished form, where the patches are no longeer changing game play, such developer made tools will be available. Until then, these seem to help, although not completely.

Edited by Challenge

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Quineloe    1,135
5 minutes ago, Challenge said:

Here you go George. All very much NA related; by some of the better players. Perhaps you do not learn well from other people, but I have not found that true of most new players.

Naval Action Guides - YouTube

 

Perhaps, if you wait until the game is in a more finished form, where the patches are no longeer changing game play, such developer made tools will be available. Until then, these seem to help, although not completely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00Ws4dlh94o

amazing!
Exactly as @Challenge said, people are quick to post tutorials and content, but they don't clean up after them when the game changes
 

 

Edited by Quineloe

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Prater    5,325
1 hour ago, George Washington said:

Do you know what full value is? It is when you reach lvl 100 and ask to add more levels so you can beat those. You beat extra 100 lvls and reset to 0 and start over. You play every night and remain top 5 in every game and return to compete more. This is money well invested. 

Uh, no.  You go to a movie and you pay such and such for 2 hours of entertainment.  You buy a blu ray and you get the features listed on the disk.  You then don't get to demand more features like interviews, deleted scene and such be added after you buy the blu-ray.  You buy a game, and steam values full value at 2 hours, you can refund prior to 2 hours.  If he has a few dozen hours in the game the devs don't own him or us anything more.  Naval Action has a list of features.  One of them was:

Enormous open world – Large open world, recreated based on 18th Century maps, historical harbors, positions, and town names. We do not believe in the various modern hand-holding markers, thus player position is not shown on the map: you will have to navigate yourself using compass, sun or landmarks. PS. battles are instanced to allow extremely complex sailing and fighting calculations for 50 ship battles. 

 

P.s.  Games aren't investments.

 

53 minutes ago, George Washington said:

Once again, you tube is not game related and not a single game developer should send their customers to watch some videos created by fans. That is just low as it can be. Professionals create ingame short training missions that take care of this problem.  

You can't create a tutorial for a game that isn't finished, otherwise they spend half their time creating/updating tutorials every time they change something.  They've already stated a hundred times that tutorial will come after game is mostly finished.

 

 

Does anyone remember the Early Access Flag?  You bought an Early Access game.  It isn't finished!  A quarter of the negativity could be cleared up if people would read Early Access, game is not in a finished state yet.  Expect poor optimization, poor graphics, tons of bugs, unfinished mechanics, and constantly changing gameplay.

Edited by Prater

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Quineloe    1,135

>You buy a game, and steam values full value at 2 hours, you can refund prior to 2 hours.

That's a really bold interpretation of Steam's refund policy.

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Prater    5,325
21 minutes ago, Quineloe said:

>You buy a game, and steam values full value at 2 hours, you can refund prior to 2 hours.

That's a really bold interpretation of Steam's refund policy.

Not really, it's how most things work unless you have a contract that says otherwise.  Read #7  http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/

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51 minutes ago, Prater said:

P.s.  Games aren't investments.

 

They are, you can play a decently built game for years ignoring other games thus saving 100$s of dollars in your pocket. Why? because you found a game that you always wanted and if you are going to spend years in it you made the right investment. 

Edited by George Washington

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58 minutes ago, Prater said:

You buy a game, and steam values full value at 2 hours, you can refund prior to 2 hours.  

Ok, but game doesn't value new players. So, whats the point here? I can compare it to Superglue you touch it, you feel it and you can't get your money back if you hold for too long. 

Question is can you enjoy NA in 2 hours especially in a basic cutter? You know the answer here. Put yourself in newbie shoes. 

Edited by George Washington

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Slamz    1,704
4 hours ago, Skully said:

It makes conquest meaningless.

If nobody is using a port that means nobody cares about its current condition. If you want it to be neutral, go for it, there should be nobody around. :ph34r:

That's been the problem all along, though: probably 80% or more of Conquests are useless. Ports nobody cares about being captured by teams that will never use them. Really it's just the old "this map is too big" problem.

Now it will mean that really you only take a port if you want to be pissy about the ownership of it. Those Brits have been going in and out of there and they're snobby and you don't like them so you claim the port.

If only your clan is using a port or you don't care about the Brits who are also using it then you just leave it as neutral.

There will be a lot less RvR but really I think it means that the only port battles we'll see are those someone somewhere cares about. Empty port battles should largely go away, which to date is what most RvR has been [a boring waste of time].

Edited by Slamz

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7 hours ago, Quineloe said:

 

I tried to point that out last page. Apparently Bernadotte has more information and told me to stuff it :)

There is one resource you can only produce in a few ports. That's coal. All other resources can be produced in so many ports that nobody is interested in them because of the resources.  There might be other reasons to conquer them, and there might be other strategies to turn them into a profit machine. But only the ports which offer the non craftable logs are ports with rare resources. To buy them you get taxed. But since you have already found your special strategy to avoid those taxes (fir fir ships !!! :wub:) you won't be affected by the taxman. Happy guy!

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mikawa    319
54 minutes ago, George Washington said:

Question is can you enjoy NA in 2 hours especially in a basic cutter? You know the answer here. Put yourself in newbie shoes. 

Why not? We all were in cutters at the beginning and I mean the very beginning of the OW, far before the megapatch ... Maybe a new player can get some redeemables if for variety, lets say a privateer and a pickle.

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mikawa    319
1 hour ago, Prater said:

You can't create a tutorial for a game that isn't finished, otherwise they spend half their time creating/updating tutorials every time they change something.  They've already stated a hundred times that tutorial will come after game is mostly finished.

But they could add a bit more love for detail when publishing a kind of short manual (text only maybe) to be adapted after patches ...

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Skully    1,022
29 minutes ago, Slamz said:

Empty port battles should largely go away, which to date is what most RvR has been [a boring waste of time].

The counter to having ports revert to neutral automatically is not show up. You can just observe, from your shielded capital, the enemy coming in conquering your port and you wait, because it'll flip back automatically.

Hmm, looks pretty much how we have it right now on Global.

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Intrepido    2,182

Still no word about:

the painful grinding to unlock slots on some ships. A fight could be won because one guy had the time to unlock all 5 despite the other one have more skill.

the rng of upgrades that make us grind missions to get them. Again, a guy which lives in NA have a great advantage about another that plays less.

This two things make that the casual and average crowd leave the game faster.

 

If you dont tweak that, the much hated grindfest will be still there and people wont come back.

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PongoNW    35

Did the devs intend to take a month to grind each skill level in each ship?

The lower and mid 5th rates which should be the heart of the game take 10000 xp per level after the 2nd. they can only count on 330 ish per mission, 3 per thousand, 30 per level, half and hour per battle.  15 hours per level and 45 hours of numb game play to get the 3,4,5 on my Essex. I go out to any enemy area to try to do aggression and open world AI intercepts to make it more fun and find zero worth while battles in 5 hours.

This is just silly.

And that is after I ground up to just about 5 on the frigate I didnt want before you changed that rule to make that worthless. 

 

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Slamz    1,704

Random thought of the day:

All current "free ports" become permanent pirate ports. They cannot be captured. Pirates get free outposts in all of them and can teleport between them (captain only -- no ships, as usual).

Pirates cannot capture ports.


This turns Pirates into, well, pirates. Points of threat all over the map, free outposts, but OW PvP-only.

Any current pirates who want RvR would simply join a nation. (Conversely, anyone who does not care about RvR would probably join pirates.)

56 minutes ago, Skully said:

The counter to having ports revert to neutral automatically is not show up. You can just observe, from your shielded capital, the enemy coming in conquering your port and you wait, because it'll flip back automatically.

Hmm, looks pretty much how we have it right now on Global.

Yeah, that's exactly how I think it should work, though.

Most port captures in this game are literally meant to be "dick moves". They don't really want or care about the port. They aren't going to base out of it or do anything there. It hurts newbies and people who don't want to buy a second account but that's all it does.

The way it SHOULD work is we see, for example, Brits operating out of Belize and KPR and we say "Georgetown would be a great base to take over to raid those two places from. This is worth our time and money to take that port and live there."

We take the port because we care about it and want it for a specific purpose.

We do not go take every port in the entire Gulf coast. Those are useless to us. They stay neutral. If we get tired of raiding, then we'll let Georgetown expire too but the Brits might decide to hasten us out of there with a port battle.

 

I think we still need counties though.

If the Brits want to secure Belize, they will still want to own every port within at least a 15 minute sail of there and that's a lot of damn ports. They care about them because they want them to be British-owned and not enemy-occupied but they can't afford to maintain dozens of ports. Keeping counties will make it feasible to claim reasonable swathes of land.

Most territory will still be neutral but there will be concentrated pockets of "we care about this stuff".

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Slamz    1,704
55 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

the painful grinding to unlock slots on some ships. A fight could be won because one guy had the time to unlock all 5 despite the other one have more skill.

In my opinion this is greatly exaggerated. Skill slots are very minor bonuses and feel more like flavor to me. About 95% of my PvP has been done in ships with 0-3 slots.

The problem I see are gamers who think they need top tier everything before they are ready to PvP. Even if it's just another 1% bonus to some niche ability, they feel like they can't fight at all if they don't have that. Maybe we have to bow to the flawed psychology of the average gamer but it really is fine the way it is. Being an expert at a ship gives you a few bonuses that are very unlikely to swing any given battle.

It's like people in other games spending 20 hours getting 1 last point of Vitality even though it's diminishing returns and that last point is hardly a perceptible improvement. But nope, they gotta have it. Not ready to PvP without that last point!

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