Forthcoming patch final discussion.

[Quineloe]

48 minutes ago, AxIslander said:

Maybe if devs will start to reward pvp participation, things will get better.

I'm gonna laugh so hard when NA Legends rewards damage again, similar to the "World of" games it's apparently going to copy, even when you don't risk your ships there and don't have to earn a lost ship back.  And NA drops to 10 players over night.

Admin will have wasted two entire years developing the open world game. Two Entire Years. Two years of copying POTBS to the crossed t's and the dotted i's, while claiming he doesn't want to copy POTBS at all. Yet every single major change since EA launch brought the game closer and closer to POTBS. In fact I can't think of a single feature added to the open world game that was added that did not exist in the very same way in POTBS. The only thing was durability 1 for all ships. Very largely a cosmetic issue to silence the vocal whiners.

 

[Duncan McFail]

34 minutes ago, Quineloe said:

I'm gonna laugh so hard when NA Legends rewards damage again, similar to the "World of" games it's apparently going to copy, even when you don't risk your ships there and don't have to earn a lost ship back.  And NA drops to 10 players over night.

Admin will have wasted two entire years developing the open world game. Two Entire Years. Two years of copying POTBS to the crossed t's and the dotted i's, while claiming he doesn't want to copy POTBS at all. Yet every single major change since EA launch brought the game closer and closer to POTBS. In fact I can't think of a single feature added to the open world game that was added that did not exist in the very same way in POTBS. The only thing was durability 1 for all ships. Very largely a cosmetic issue to silence the vocal whiners.

In NA legends it's a good thing. It's a very fair implementation. In NA it can be abused. A player can enter battle with an alt both in first rates and strip off both sides on each player. Then exit battle with no loss and 100k richer. Exploitable is the problem in NA. Hard to exploit with a lobby system. 

And 1 dura is the way to go in NA or even POTBS. They never had an alliance system in POTBS. I don't recall a leader board. They definitely didn't have to actually aim to hit their targets. Ok I don't have much, but POTBS got it right in so many ways it would be crazy not to put their systems in this game. 

[The Wren]

3 hours ago, Bach said:

Is there an expected release date for this patch?

I've no idea why it isn't being released immediately unless of course they are still just debating the concept of it and haven't programmed anything yet? Also I don't understand the whole "test bed server" concept. I always thought that all of the servers were test beds. We are still in early access aren't we?

[Bach]

The thing with the exploitable rewards is because the game was handing out monetary rewards. When the battle reward is a stepping stone to more power then you have to expect exploits. But PvP rewards don't need to be monetary or power advancement related.

For example, some games give out prestige related rewards that are often equally sought after as trophies and bragging rights. These could be paint schemes, colored penants, titles and/or special non-cobalt related in game perks.

Lets say you participated in 10 defenses of Carlisle. The admiralty awards you the title "Defender of Cornwall". Even simpler 100 PvP battles your ship mast has a green pennant, 200 PvP blue, etc...  Maybe if you are British you can gain a knight of the realm title or Order of the Bath ensign on the foremast.  Anyway, hard core PvP players might laugh at this but they aren't the ones we are trying to get motivated. Just being able to get a common paint scheme for your clan would be enough to encourage some PvP risk taking.

Edited August 26, 2017 by Bach

[Duncan McFail]

14 minutes ago, Bach said:

The thing with the exploitable rewards is because the game was handing out monetary rewards. When the battle reward is a stepping stone to more power then you have to expect exploits. But PvP rewards don't need to be monetary or power advancement related.

For example, some games give out prestige related rewards that are often equally sought after as trophies and bragging rights. These could be paint schemes, colored penants, titles and/or special non-cobalt related in game perks.

Lets say you participated in 10 defenses of Carlisle. The admiralty awards you the title "Defender of Cornwall". Even simpler 100 PvP battles your ship mast has a green pennant, 200 PvP blue, etc...  Maybe if you are British you can gain a knight of the realm title or Order of the Bath ensign on the foremast.  Anyway, hard core PvP players might laugh at this but they aren't the ones we are trying to get motivated. Just being able to get a common paint scheme for your clan would be enough to encourage some PvP risk taking.

Pennants and flags sound great. I was looking for more stuff to throw in to my notoriety/xp system which I'm about to regurgitate. 

 

[Quineloe]

1 hour ago, Duncan McFail said:

In NA legends it's a good thing. It's a very fair implementation. In NA it can be abused. A player can enter battle with an alt both in first rates and strip off both sides on each player. Then exit battle with no loss and 100k richer. Exploitable is the problem in NA. Hard to exploit with a lobby system. 

And 1 dura is the way to go in NA or even POTBS. They never had an alliance system in POTBS. I don't recall a leader board. They definitely didn't have to actually aim to hit their targets. Ok I don't have much, but POTBS got it right in so many ways it would be crazy not to put their systems in this game. 

This AGAIN? We went over this three times in this thread alone. Oh boy.

 

POTBS did have a leaderboard, it was web based and far more elaborate than what we have right now.

The boogeyman is knocking on the door again. Oh my god, we have to have a bad game because people might exploit a good game. Meanwhile, people actually exploit in PVP right now and no one bats an eye.

Edited August 26, 2017 by Quineloe

[Sir Texas Sir]

3 hours ago, Bach said:

I agree on your first point. The game needs more PVE content and goals to go along with RvR we have. 

I don't think your second point is what is really happening. Players are not afraid to lose expensive ships. They are simply unwilling to lose period.  That's not something the Devs can fix.  We can grab free 5th rates off the OS right now.  We can build Connies and Aggies with a lvl2 yard and reasonable materials. Skills are carried from boat to boat and don't require expensive mods. The standard speed mod, Gazelle, is available to everyone that can sink x4 NPCs.  One trade goods run can net a million gold. A level 1 character can build the biggest cannons day one. Getting PvP ships is as cheap or cheaper than ever. So why aren't players out there right now blasting cannon balls at each other?   They don't want to lose. Why do people gank? Because it's an assured win. The problem has never been economics. It's attitude and risk vs rewards. Currently players are adverse to the shame, disappointment or whatever it is they view negative about losing. Maybe we need PvP participation trophies. Equally as obvious is that the rewards of PvP simply are not enough, for whatever reason, to convince players to risk losing. 

I think it's a lot to do with todays society that every thing is pretty much given to folks instead of having to fight for it.  Instead folks just give up and stop playing if they don't get what they want.  We see it all the time in game.  Take one port they freak out and act like they been one ported even though they have 20 something other regions/ports that are untouched.   They stop playing and don't fight back.  You know how you get better?   You fight back.  PvE rewards are better than PvP rewards so it doesn't motivate them to fight back.  Some content shouldn't be readly easy to get for every one.  They messed up when they took away the PvP marks. though I think the PvP/RvR should of been combined so you can get the same rewards from doing either one.  If a PvE only player wants those rewards they need to do the content themselves or pay for it from some one that does it.  They shouldn't lock key things behind those rewards though.  These rewards should be things like paints, mods, skill books and certain ship permits (still keept hem random drops but the PvP/RvR guys can buy them directly).  While I don' t really care that Gold isn't jacked up and i think they got CM kinda close to where it needs to be for PvP, but XP needs to be off damage for both PvP and PvE and it should be x5 for for PvP rewards not x2.  Cause you can grind way more out faster than you can find the PvP fights, but if the rewards are x5 more it gives folks more incentive to fight PvP than to just run and go do PvE grind.

1 hour ago, Farrago said:

The upcoming patch with tax system might be a good time to make the smuggler tag mean more. Nations should be able to police their waters.

1. Port owning clans should be able to attack smugglers of even their own nation if they are in the owned port's waters.

2. Smugglers don't pay taxes or at least try to avoid them.

What would be really cool if a port owner could stop a smuggler and demand payment of taxes and a fine. If paid, the smuggler flag is removed and the former smuggler can then not be attacked by his countrymen. Or reverse the order of 1 and 2. Clan owners first must offer the chance to pay tax and fine, or forfeiture of goods, or the smuggler is sunk.

Smuggler flag should be like it was the last time we had Pirate Green on Green.  If you have the smuggler flag on you should be treated as a Pirate.  Any one can attack you including your own nation and it turns it into a Pirate vs Pirate FFA battle that any one can join.  This way even if a national hit you and your counted as a smuggler the pirates that don't like you can join either side or just sink any one.  Same with any one else that joins the fight.  

I wouldn't say don't pay tax's but they can get a reduced rate maybe?  Though if any one can attack them than it would give incentive to keep folks that smuggle out of your waters.  I personnely think pirates should have smuggler perm, we pretty much all keep the flag on us any way.  Maybe the perks is to join any national port while in a trader and give reduced taxes, but you are marked as a smuggler until you get back to a friendly port and take it off and any one can attack you so folks (nationals) will want to hunt smugglers down of their nations or others as if they are pirates.  I would prefer the port enter thing be replaced with a proper reputation system in game that goes off if you can trade with one nation or another depending off your reputation for that nations traders guild.

45 minutes ago, Duncan McFail said:

In NA legends it's a good thing. It's a very fair implementation. In NA it can be abused. A player can enter battle with an alt both in first rates and strip off both sides on each player. Then exit battle with no loss and 100k richer. Exploitable is the problem in NA. Hard to exploit with a lobby system. 

And 1 dura is the way to go in NA or even POTBS. They never had an alliance system in POTBS. I don't recall a leader board. They definitely didn't have to actually aim to hit their targets. Ok I don't have much, but POTBS got it right in so many ways it would be crazy not to put their systems in this game. 

To keep it form being exploited that is why you keep Gold/CM rewards off the Kill/Assit and you make XP only off damage done. I mean if some one exploits it what all did they do level a char/ship at most?  It still cost them an arm in leg in gold for the ships they damaged for the repairs, are you can still keep the kill assit thing for giving out the rewards but just make it some one has to do the kill/assit for you to get your xp reward, you don't have to do the actual kill/assit to get it, but as long as some one does it you get xp and don't make the player split the xp between all involved.  Only gold/CM should be split between all involved in the fight.  XP should be off individual accomplishments in battle.  Maybe even reward extra for things like demasting, boarding, captures.  XP should be paid out no matter if you sink or capture a ship too.  

Also to help with the ship grind travel xp (ever so small) should go towards your ship knowledge along with XP you gain from doing missions.  If you give more means to get xp that grind starts to not be as bad as it is now. I do think some ships need to be better balanced.  The first slot should be easy to get, just a missions or two (or one good fight) should unlock the first slot as it's basic knowledge of that ship.  Second and third should take a little more work but still fairly easy to unlock.  The devs say the average should be 2-3 slots for any players, but this can be insane amount of xp for the high tier ships.  Some times leveling over a char second time over if not more.   Now the 4th and 5th slots i think should take time.  Even like the concept some came up with 5th slot only open through PvP to reward PvP players.  So the only way to open that last slot and you can open it early is by doing PvP only with that ship.  You  can have some one that PvP only have the slot one and two open, but cause he PvP's he has slot 5 open too.  He still has to grind out the 3rd and 4th slots, but he now has a three slot ship cause he does nothing but PvP.

Another way to avoid any exploits is to make the combat news anounce who they sunk.  We don't need to know the ships involved but if you list it like this.

Sir Texas Sir sunk pirate player Duncan McFail near Kidd's Island

We notice this pops every hour on the hour that I'm sinking Duncan pretty much every hour than I'm mostly likely exploiting the system and give an option for players to report that so the devs can check the logs if they don't all ready have a monitoring system to do so.  Even just a simple f11 as means to report would work.  I almost done this once when I noticed a certain player keep sinking some one around every hour and no one in nation chat would pipe up they are being sunk.  You put the name down and it will make it sure who is getting sunked where.  It also lets you know if certain players are doing nothing but camping new players to get there sinks.

[The Ghost of Sir Edward]

2 hours ago, AxIslander said:

Maybe if devs will start to reward pvp participation, things will get better.

Damage rewards need to return, capture rewards need to return, and PVP rewards should be double than those for given for NPC. But nothing will get better until there is more PVE content. The game does not have enough players to create the content by themselves and there needs to something to do while your waiting for someone to show themselves.

[Quineloe]

I'm gonna explain this for some reason to someone who should know this because he's been here since April 4th, 2016 and this happened during that time, but here is exactly why Alt account damage farming never worked in this game:

Player A joined battle with Player B, both under his control

Player A damaged Player B close to sinking, then left the battle again and collected damage rewards.
Player A and B repeated the process and made a lot of money

No one reported them

Then Admin had a monitoring alert that Player A had made a lot of PVP gold from damage  but no sinking. 99% of his income was PVP damage, and 0% of his income was a kill or an assist in PVP. Admin investigated and saw the the damage farmed over and over on Player B.

Admin reset them both. No reports were needed, simple log monitoring caught them. That happened with a few accounts at once, and after that no one damage farmed alt accounts anymore. Because simple log monitoring catches this.

don't make me bloody dig out the admin announcments from last year about this precise thing happening. You should have paid attention back then.

[The Ghost of Sir Edward]

Yes player A is an a-hat and I doubt any game will reset that reality. But what about players c-z who don't have alts and who don't farm gold? Why do they have to deal with carebear ROE and game mechanics that only exist because there are a handful of player As who have an extra 39.99 and dream of mountains of pixel gold? 

[Capitaine Jean Piere]

love the changes

[Duncan McFail]

35 minutes ago, Quineloe said:

Then Admin had a monitoring alert that Player A had made a lot of PVP gold from damage  but no sinking. 99% of his income was PVP damage, and 0% of his income was a kill or an assist in PVP. Admin investigated and saw the the damage farmed over and over on Player B.

Admin reset them both. No reports were needed, simple log monitoring caught them. That happened with a few accounts at once, and after that no one damage farmed alt accounts anymore. Because simple log monitoring catches this 

Pretty sure that never happened. A few people were reset for using outside programs that sent impossible to achieve damage amounts that netted a lot of money, but tons of people were doing it normally and getting away with it. 

 

52 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Another way to avoid any exploits is to make the combat news anounce who they sunk.  We don't need to know the ships involved but if you list it like this.

Sir Texas Sir sunk pirate player Duncan McFail near Kidd's Island

I said the same thing earlier in this post. Also if the target dies you'll most likely get an assist. The problem is when they don't die. In regards to do for slots hopefully they get rid of it completely. It's killing the game for me. 

[Quineloe]

Yeah, you probably are too new to have seen this first hand. maybe it already happened in March.

 

You know what? That was very, very easy to find.

 

 

So yeah, be really sure that never happened. It's just right there in this very forum.

Edited August 26, 2017 by Quineloe

[Sir Texas Sir]

34 minutes ago, Quineloe said:

Yeah, you probably are too new to have seen this first hand. maybe it already happened in March.

If you actually read most of the folks are saying ONLY XP IS REWARDED FOR DAMAGE.   That way you can't make any gold/CM without sinking a player and it's only paid off for the Assist and Kills.  XP on the other hand is paid no matter id any one is killed.  What the worse that would happen, that exploiter max's out his char? I mean maybe he will unlock his ships if that is why he's doing it, but than that is what the logs are for and yes devs have banned/punished folks that had insane damage done in a short time to one other player (most likely alts).    We don't see every thing the devs do to punish these folks and we don't need to, but making every rule around preventing a few folks from exploiting hurts the other 10K players that don't exploit the game.

[Quineloe]

You speak for yourself, not most folks. There's plenty of players who want to see gold for damage return as well.

 

>We don't see every thing the devs do to punish these folks and we don't need to, but making every rule around preventing a few folks from exploiting hurts the other 10K players that don't exploit the game.

Please explain how a rule that forbids cheating actually hurts you as a non-cheater.

Edited August 26, 2017 by Quineloe

[Sir Texas Sir]

2 minutes ago, Quineloe said:

You speak for yourself, not most folks. There's plenty of players who want to see gold for damage return as well.

 

>We don't see every thing the devs do to punish these folks and we don't need to, but making every rule around preventing a few folks from exploiting hurts the other 10K players that don't exploit the game.

Please explain how a rule that forbids cheating actually hurts you as a non-cheater.

Scroll back 30 pages and I have yet to see some one ask for more than xp on damage, maybe one or two guys, but the majority only want xp for damage and than they want a proper x2-5 for PvP compared to PvE so it's worth the high risk over low risk which right now pays out more than PvP.

Well for one it hurts the none exploiters cause they are limited on earning xp.  You want to know why we have a recently killed tag where no reward for an hour?  To keep from exploiting farmers that kill there alts.   That means if some one is having a blast and jumps right back into the PvP fight and gets killed no one gets anything from it.  Even though we are just having fun and killing each other and not explioting the game.  

A low level player runs with a group.  He can't get enough damage to get an Assist or Kill but he can shoot at sails and do damage.  On an xp for damage system he will still gain xp for shooting those sails.  On the current system he gets nothing.  Though more than likely he got sunk too in the fight and gained exactly nothing.  Though on an XP for damage system he would of gained XP for his expierence in the fight.  Which even if you loose you should always have learned something from that fight.

 

Remember this exploiting moment you speak of was on an old system. Game has changed a lot since than.  If I recalled wasn't it a problem  on PvP1 EU only for the most part?  Just like the dopping of ships and mods was a problem?  Maybe the problem is the players you have on your server and not the game it self.  Which in my book the devs need to get stronger on punishment of those exploiting players and not on the players that play the game legit.  Making a bunch of rules that limit your honest players cause of a very few bad players is not a good system.  Once again these guys where damage farming to make gold not to gain xp.  Once you max out XP any way it pretty much means nothing for you.  That is why you go with a XP ONLY for damage system and keep GOLD/CM off the current Kill/Assit rewards system.  Why would the Admiralty pay you gold rewards any way for a ship that escapes?   Your bounty should be paid on any ships sunk or captured?  The reward for capture is the ship it self.

Both me and you are maxed out players.  Look at a system to help new players level up, right now the system is not very friendly for new players and casual players to level up and they get frustrated and stop playing.

[Quineloe]

Recently killed is not there to prevent alt kill farming. It's there so you don't kill someone over and over for rewards.

>Why would the Admiralty pay you gold rewards any way for a ship that escapes?

Do you ever sometimes argue with "it's a game, that's why?" Well, now you can't anymore.

[Duncan McFail]

1 hour ago, Quineloe said:

Yeah, you probably are too new to have seen this first hand. maybe it already happened in March.

 

You know what? That was very, very easy to find.

So yeah, be really sure that never happened. It's just right there in this very forum.

I'm sorry. Are you still talking to me? Try using quotes like experienced forum users would. Maybe try rereading what I said. And reread that post while you're at it. The accused were reset from more damage than possible. From what I'd heard it was from using an outside program.

[Sir Texas Sir]

5 minutes ago, Quineloe said:

Recently killed is not there to prevent alt kill farming. It's there so you don't kill someone over and over for rewards.

>Why would the Admiralty pay you gold rewards any way for a ship that escapes?

Do you ever sometimes argue with "it's a game, that's why?" Well, now you can't anymore.

Uh isn't that exactly what farming is for? It doesn't matter if you use alts or another player.  Farming is still farming.   Though most folks that do farming use alts not other players.   Really you going to nick pick my words to get your point across?  You just proved mine, it was there to prevent farming alt or other wise.   Though it's actually a great system and doesn't really hurt folks that bad cause most folks that get killed don't rush right out to get killed over and over cause of the cost of ships. If they do it's normally in a basic cutter and than they are just trolling and that was fixed by making it so Basic Cutters can't start any PvP actions.  Which was a fix Devs came up with to stop another form of exploiting of the game.  So let the Devs handle those issues and stop hurting the small casual players that are struggling with this game to even level up.  You don't see it cause your maxed out, but we see players quite all the time cause the grind is to hard.  PvP GLOBAL had a large amount of players come in with a streamer and most of them are gone now...main reason (yah I know folks wills say it's the pirate fault) was cause many of them think the grind is to hard.  You gain little to no xp unless you win a fight, if you don't win you get nothing.  Folks need to get something and that is why we should be rewarded XP for Damage no matter how many kills/assit or even times you get sunk.  Every fight should be a learning system.  

Ok I have given reason for why we should change the system, you have gave nothing other than an old exploited system over a year ago that is no longer in game and rules have changed.  So tell me please why shouldn't we gain XP for damage please?   

[Quineloe]

>It doesn't matter if you use alts or another player.

of course it does. The alt doesn't fight back, the player will.

[Sir Texas Sir]

4 minutes ago, Duncan McFail said:

I'm sorry. Are you still talking to me? Try using quotes like experienced forum users would. Maybe try rereading what I said. And reread that post while you're at it. The accused were reset from more damage than possible. From what I'd heard it was from using an outside program.

It was also a year and half ago when you got insane xp/gold from PvP kills too.  The current system pays nothing for damage so only way to get anything is through Kill's and Assit and even than the pay out right now are no where close to what they where a year and half ago.

You know a game and system that has been tweeked and changed many times since than.   I think it's funny how many of these guys reason for not wanting changes are things so old and out dated they can't even happen now or if they did it would be on a very small scale.   

[Sir Texas Sir]

4 minutes ago, Quineloe said:

>It doesn't matter if you use alts or another player.

of course it does. The alt doesn't fight back, the player will.

if your farming they don't fight back.  I remember certain EU port battle where folks brought in ships without guns.  Now tell me how those players where fighting back exactly?

If some one wants to find a way to exploit a system they will find it no matter what.  Don't hinder the honest players cause of it though.  Report those players and let the Devs deal with it.

[Quineloe]

9 minutes ago, Duncan McFail said:

I'm sorry. Are you still talking to me? Try using quotes like experienced forum users would. Maybe try rereading what I said. And reread that post while you're at it. The accused were reset from more damage than possible. From what I'd heard it was from using an outside program.

No, that's not what the link says. You're making this whole thing up. Everything made up.

[Quineloe]

26 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

It was also a year and half ago when you got insane xp/gold from PvP kills too.

 

No, you certainly did not get more gold / exp from PVP than you do today. Don't make me prove that as well....

Okay I dug it out anyways



Solo kill PVP on a Belle Poule. That is less than you get today.

Edited August 26, 2017 by Quineloe

[Duncan McFail]

17 minutes ago, Quineloe said:

No, that's not what the link says. You're making this whole thing up. Everything made up.

100-150k damage on one ship is impossible. Read what admin said on damage farming being ok. But thanks for saying I'm new, how easy it was to find that thread, and how you thought players were simply damage farming. I just lurked the forums at that time without an account. Bought the game when it first went on steam. I'm about to have myself a Snickers as well while my phone charges.