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Decreasing naion number, nation unbalance and new capital


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Introduction and facts

The new system of conquest is coming. With that, the middle of the map is supposed to be RvR ON while around the map the RvR is supposed to be OFF. Capital from the center on the map are supposed to be put away like the brit who may spawn on Bridgetown.

  • On PvP Europe, we can see on "Conquest competition" that 3 nation are fighting in RvR and 5 surviving. Swedish, Danish and british are alive. Dutch, pirate, french, US and spanish have not conquest port from years.
  • On PvP US, we can see on "Conquest competition" that 3 nation are fighting in RvR, 4 surviving and one have been erase from the map. Pirate, GB and DK are playing in rvr and the others one are dead.
  • Number of player provides by admin about his charts show a big difference with what people feel and see ingame and on TS. There is a difference between people in RvR and people in global. Clan war may help to have a better view on who is in rvr or not but with clan war limited to nation only it not going to solve the problem

What is happening

When a nation is in a bad move, some people on this nation :

=> Stop to play because they feel useless as they are missing the rvr aspect on the game

=> Use forget papers making the difference between nation biggers. We can see that with french and spanish clans moving to DK to make more RvR on europe server. It reinforce the stronger and it make more weak the weaker.
 

The weakest nation are then in a snowball. Less player mean less to join and finish their levelling mean les resosurces means more to forget papers means to be weak etc etc.

 

Solutions

  1. Delete forget papers. Forget papers is an egoist tool that allow people to change nation but that break the balance for all a nation. If people want to be able to change, they have to make it with the hard way by creating a new character. We are not supposed to fight someone that was our friend yesterday and that may be back our frient tomorrow (most of people have 2 forget paper in redemable). I prefer to see a people leave the game and not play it anymore that seeing a nation perish because the departure on the player improving the difference between the nation he leaves and the one he joins. That make all the nation irrevelant to play anymore. Forget papers improve Unbalance in player population
  2. Modify Forget papers : After every map victory, forget papers is possible for 48 hours but only to join on the 3 worst nation. It will change the flew of people moving to win in a flew of people moving to help and find new challenges
  3. Decrease number of nations. We can see that on both server there is basicly 3 nations that are active in RvR and all the other one which provide ports to the ones activ in rvr. There is few hope for the bashed nation to be able to counterattack thoses who stole their ports due of people leaving the games and players switching nation to winning side. We have actually 7 nations +pirates.
    3 nations are really activ atm per side in RvR. I suggest to use the remaning time on Alpha to test a new setup on nations. It will allow devs to change the time on the game wich is setup on a time where sweden and DK were present in caraibe when in thje immigation on most players they were not in the area on this time.
    I understand the necessity to have "neutral nation" that will be joined by thoses wich are neither french, british or spanish but it seems to early and not really helping the game. It's the case now and it has been the case before even with 1000 player online. We never seen 8 nation rvring on the same time.
    Adding portugese for exampe may solve the things. I think that at least 2 nations have to disapear to make the game better for everyone.
  4. Introduce Alliance in Clan war or beeing able to add not nation to clan to a clan war : Clan war is a setup that make people interest in rvr to focus on it while the rest of the population on the nation make pvp around or pve. It's going one more time to improve population unbalance with the winner more winning and the loose more loosing. If alliance is possible between clan war or if we are able to add not national clan in clan war, it will make the clans fixed in a small nation able to make rvr again and to enjoy the game withouht been limited by the rest of the population on the nation. It will then make the not in the wish to leave or to change nation to make rvr as they will be able to make rvr into their war corporation

 

Capital, spanwn and nation

As said, i'm really thinking there is too much nation to balance the game in term of population. There is more difference in 20v50 than in 80 and 110.
Anyway the capitals. Actually, we seen many capital into the antilles and some other placed on the rest of the map creating a big unbalance in the game as the antilles nation are block in rvr almost from start in a direction.
With a new system of rvr it may be painless with noone been able to make rvr around capital but as seen from the last wipe a huge zerg around the capital on the weakest nation may burn them from start. I suggest 2 things

  1. Balance the map even if it's not historical accurate. if you want to be accurate, change the time on the game and replace Sweed or Dk by portugese or just delete this nation to make a 6 nation game even if 5 may be enough
  2. Noone understand at start why these or thse nation is supposed to be hard or easy if you are not explaning why. The number of region as start is not a good point as even with a big territory (spain), if you are weak you can't defend it. Spain is for these rease one on the harder nation but there capital, with no capital on west make it easy. Noone can contst you exico golf if you are enough to defend. Same for brits are there capital in the center. They are  hours away from anywhere in any direction.
    Capitals have to be more balance, you put all of them together to improve pvp on a port of the map that is not RvR (meaning the guy who want to be more quiest will have to move away at start) or you spread them in all the direction you can with equql distance between them to balance the things.

Ty for reading, i tried to make it clear and easy to read

 

 

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20 minutes ago, PIerrick de Badas said:

On PvP US, we can see on "Conquest competition" that 3 nation are fighting in RvR, 4 surviving and one have been erase from the map. Pirate, GB and DK are playing in rvr and the others one are dead.

You either are blind or ignorant of what happened on Global. The Free Empire, consisting of BLACK, CCCP and SCAR (/ AUSEZ) has won. There is no RvR anymore.

The British succumbed after the initial invasion of Port-au-Prince due to mechanics and infighting.

If you wish I can write up a full report revealing the attempted betrayal at Port-au-Prince, the fall of the British Empire and the Ghost Ship Fleet in French waters. Ah I forget the bombing of Aves (not Pearl Harbor :P).

28 minutes ago, PIerrick de Badas said:

Solutions

Before contemplating solutions, first we need to agree on some presumptions, lets start with:

  1. The game does not model real life alliances at all. And we game by those alliances, not by what the game dictates.
  2. You can only fight who is in your timeslot, regardless of Nation, Clan or alliance. (And yes, The Free Empire is fully aware of this presumption. Even @Jeheil is. ^_^)
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27 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

It is more simple than all of that.

Reintroduce the alliance system and people from nations wouldnt fell alone fighting impossible odds.

 

Let me ask the community one fast question, how many RvR clans switched nations while the alliance system was active?

Guess who saw this coming.

Oh wait, that is how it is now on EU server and somehow it doesn't work out. (See my previous point #1. There is more, but lets first agree.)

PS. Forgot to add: hence we never played with the alliance game rule.

Edited by Skully
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I get the arguments for reducing the number of nations, although I believe devs have made it clear previously that it is not an option. However, why would you suggest removing the nations that are actually active in RvR and PvP? It would be more relevant to remove the inactive nations. If we wanted 3 teams, we should make it Swedes, Danes and Brits, and remove the rest.

Since people also keep suggeting to reduce the size of the map, I've made a proposal that accounts for allt eh PvP- and RvR-action happening in the Antilles recently anyway:

V8ooxCf3.png

 

I do however agree with you that clan wars teams should not be limited by nationality. If we get proper clan wars, War companies need to be able to incorporate clans from different nations. Otherwise we make every problem the game has now in RvR even worse. With Clan wars and the War Company idea we have the perfect opportunity to make team numbers and sizes dynamic and self-balancing, taking a lot of the headache out of the hands of devs. All they need to do is make sure there is a mechanism to encourage at least two war companies to actually be in conflict with each other.

Edited by Anolytic
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8 hours ago, Anolytic said:

Since people also keep suggeting to reduce the size of the map, I've made a proposal that accounts for allt eh PvP- and RvR-action happening in the Antilles recently anyway:

V8ooxCf3.png

 

But why is it forbidden to feed the ducks at Aves? I always enjoyed feeding the ducks at Aves :(

Edited by Cornelis Tromp
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Also have 1 nation, I don't care whether pirates or some other, that is not RVR centric.  I like how POTBS handled pirates, played as a pirate there for at least 3 years. They could take ports but after a few days it would return to the nation so there was no purpose to pirate RVR, although some did it.  Other than ow fights and eco warfare (selling your trade goods) I personally don't care on how many dots my nation has as RVR isn't my thing (yes, I'm weird), the fewer the better. :) If outlaw mechanics ever come in to play, that's who I'll be. :)

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36 minutes ago, Anolytic said:

Since people also keep suggeting to reduce the size of the map, I've made a proposal that accounts for allt eh PvP- and RvR-action happening in the Antilles recently anyway:

What strikes me as funny is that EU only really needs such a small piece of the map. Are you saying the rest can be seeded to other timeslots?

37 minutes ago, Anolytic said:

All they need to do is make sure there is a mechanism to encourage at least two war companies to actually be in conflict with each other.

A mechanism, or simply the ability to brag about the size of ones e-peen?

I remember a famous 1v1 (in terms of RvR) stand-off. Yes, it resulted in a non-battle. But folks just can't stop talking about. :D

The story of how the Dolphin, Cuttle Kitten, Unicorn, Carebear Alliance brought down the infamous Lord Vicious is simply grand. (Yes, The Free Empire fell as our capital was overrun, but still...)

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9 minutes ago, Anne Wildcat said:

Also have 1 nation, I don't care whether pirates or some other, that is not RVR centric.  I like how POTBS handled pirates, played as a pirate there for at least 3 years. They could take ports but after a few days it would return to the nation so there was no purpose to pirate RVR, although some did it.  Other than ow fights and eco warfare (selling your trade goods) I personally don't care on how many dots my nation has as RVR isn't my thing (yes, I'm weird), the fewer the better. :)

Pirates should not own ports in the same sense as Nations do.

For Pirates it is all about Clan and some potential friendlies/enemies (aka the KoS). Still we need some form of conflict within the Pirate "Nation". Or maybe I'm completely wrong in that regard?

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6 hours ago, PIerrick de Badas said:

Solutions

  1. Delete forget papers. Forget papers is an egoist tool that allow people to change nation but that break the balance for all a nation. If people want to be able to change, they have to make it with the hard way by creating a new character. We are not supposed to fight someone that was our friend yesterday and that may be back our frient tomorrow (most of people have 2 forget paper in redemable). I prefer to see a people leave the game and not play it anymore that seeing a nation perish because the departure on the player improving the difference between the nation he leaves and the one he joins. That make all the nation irrevelant to play anymore. Forget papers improve Unbalance in player population
  2. Modify Forget papers : After every map victory, forget papers is possible for 48 hours but only to join on the 3 worst nation. It will change the flew of people moving to win in a flew of people moving to help and find new challenges
  3. Decrease number of nations. We can see that on both server there is basicly 3 nations that are active in RvR and all the other one which provide ports to the ones activ in rvr. There is few hope for the bashed nation to be able to counterattack thoses who stole their ports due of people leaving the games and players switching nation to winning side. We have actually 7 nations +pirates.
    3 nations are really activ atm per side in RvR. I suggest to use the remaning time on Alpha to test a new setup on nations. It will allow devs to change the time on the game wich is setup on a time where sweden and DK were present in caraibe when in thje immigation on most players they were not in the area on this time.
    I understand the necessity to have "neutral nation" that will be joined by thoses wich are neither french, british or spanish but it seems to early and not really helping the game. It's the case now and it has been the case before even with 1000 player online. We never seen 8 nation rvring on the same time.
    Adding portugese for exampe may solve the things. I think that at least 2 nations have to disapear to make the game better for everyone.
  4. Introduce Alliance in Clan war or beeing able to add not nation to clan to a clan war : Clan war is a setup that make people interest in rvr to focus on it while the rest of the population on the nation make pvp around or pve. It's going one more time to improve population unbalance with the winner more winning and the loose more loosing. If alliance is possible between clan war or if we are able to add not national clan in clan war, it will make the clans fixed in a small nation able to make rvr again and to enjoy the game withouht been limited by the rest of the population on the nation. It will then make the not in the wish to leave or to change nation to make rvr as they will be able to make rvr into their war corporation

 

Not letting a player play the nation he wants is a bad practice, IMO. Even if the player is switching because he is a no-good, slimy, yellow-bellied coward deserting his nation in its biggest time of need. So, forged papers should stay. However, that doesn't mean he should be able to take everything with him. I say forged papers should allow you to keep your XP and unlocked ship slots BUT you can not take gold, ships, upgrades/refits, learned book knowledge, or mats with you. Obviously one could get around some of these restrictions by getting someone to hold the items for him prior to the switch, but it would make the change more difficult (and perhaps risky).

I don't see a way for an alliance system to work. It's either player exploitable or strictly in the Devs lap to create and dissolve alliances. Neither way are flexible nor solve the problem. BUT what would help smaller nations (or weaker clans) are craftable letters of marque which could be given, sold, or paid for and allow the receiver to fly another nation's flag temporarily.

Edited by Farrago
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2 hours ago, Farrago said:

Not letting a player play the nation he wants is a bad practice, IMO. Even if the player is switching because he is a no-good, slimy, yellow-bellied coward deserting his nation in its biggest time of need. So, forged papers should stay. However, that doesn't mean he should be able to take everything with him. I say forged papers should allow you to keep your XP and unlocked ship slots BUT you can not take gold, ships, upgrades/refits, learned book knowledge, or mats with you. Obviously one could get around some of these restrictions by getting someone to hold the items for him prior to the switch, but it would make the change more difficult (and perhaps risky).

Also a disregard for reality. We have had this in the past. Alters and real clans have no issue switching Nations. This only hurts the casuals.

2 hours ago, Farrago said:

I don't see a way for an alliance system to work. It's either player exploitable or strictly in the Devs lap to create and dissolve alliances. Neither way are flexible nor solve the problem. BUT what would help smaller nations (or weaker clans) are craftable letters of marque which could be given, sold, or paid for and allow the receiver to fly another nation's flag temporarily.

Devs can not choose who players will fight, see presumption #1.

Try creating a mechanic that is not exploitable with letters of marque and you'll quickly run into headaches. Picture alters or power gamers selling or buying these at whim with whomever they want. Again I point to presumption #1.

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I think the nation that have a strong nationaly-link should be preserv to stay attractiv for such this nations. Most of german play swedish but they may play unicorn or chinesse. French will prefer to play frenhc, brit brit and spanish spanish. It's why dk and/or sw and/or US may disapear. At least on european server. On global, US could be present and one on the UE nation beeing out.

What about forget papers? good or bad?

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Forged papers for "egoistic" choices is better than people quitting entirely if they feel like their only choice is to start from scratch or play in an unhappy situation.

Clan wars is already set to make Sweden and Denmark very unattractive when permanently stuck on 1 region/port, similar for the Dutch at 2 ports and US at 3. So you're already getting your wish. I still wouldn't get my hopes up about that reviving France though, more on that below, and for the players in the regions of tightly squeezed smaller nations it has been an endless supply of action compared to joining the sprawling mega-nations that probably have to sail for an hour just to reach the waters where the enemy is most active.

1 hour ago, PIerrick de Badas said:

I think the nation that have a strong nationaly-link should be preserv to stay attractiv for such this nations.

Why? You can't ask for better balance and prioritize nations that have a strong nationality-link. If you want balance, you need fluidity. If you want Spain mostly just for the Spaniards and France mostly just for the French then you get exactly what you currently have - niche nations that struggle to recover from population slumps because they have a barrier to entry and appeal to a smaller player pool.

Hell, even as a Swede I'm considering switching away from Sweden just because it went from being international to being mostly German, and thus I wouldn't really care much if it gets removed or becomes obsolete.

You can probably guess that the last thing I would do is to switch to another nation with a strong nationality preference - that makes France a complete no-go and Spain unlikely (unless there's a strong influx of mixed players to it with the clan wars patch, I quite like the idea of going Spanish if the game turns into mostly a GB v Spain clash-of-oppressive-empires thing). It's great for some and terrible for others.

Edited by Guest
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6 hours ago, Aegir said:

Forged papers for "egoistic" choices is better than people quitting entirely if they feel like their only choice is to start from scratch or play in an unhappy situation.

Freedom of choice, I like it.

Don't question the motive and try to invent mechanics. This is not a kindergarten sandbox. We are adults and therefore should use our cannons to decide our conflicts. :D

Edited by Skully
politically mandated smiley
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@PIerrick de Badas does this answer your question?

5 minutes ago, Cockeyed Callaway said:
36 minutes ago, Skully said:

Have you tried joining the British? The Free Empire has a huge west coast for PvE and safe rebuilding.

Ahhh...great idea, only one problem...yet another hoop to jump through. If you want to change nations and you do not have the transfer papers, you must start from scratch. Basically, if you're a new guy (post wipe) and are miserable because your country has no ports or is under constant threat of ganks, you have three options.

1) Stay and overcome the obstacles if possible. Of course if you're just a trader, part time PvPer or lone wolf, that may be asking a lot. 

2) Change nations and loose all of your progress. I'm sure flushing countless hours of grinding down the toilet and starting from scratch will be worth it...maybe.

3) Quit the game because it is not fun and you feel you have no good options. Nawwwww...no one would do that...or would they?

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13 hours ago, Jon Snow lets go said:

Are there any infos about player numbers after the wipe?

I know we both have post made asking for this info over and over and over and nothing.

I would love to have seen those numbers after wipe, compared to before and than a month or two later and than now. I'll bet you we will find out some nations aren't as dead as they are playing off as being, they just refuse to fight.

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9 hours ago, Aegir said:

Forged papers for "egoistic" choices is better than people quitting entirely if they feel like their only choice is to start from scratch or play in an unhappy situation.

Clan wars is already set to make Sweden and Denmark very unattractive when permanently stuck on 1 region/port, similar for the Dutch at 2 ports and US at 3. So you're already getting your wish. I still wouldn't get my hopes up about that reviving France though, more on that below, and for the players in the regions of tightly squeezed smaller nations it has been an endless supply of action compared to joining the sprawling mega-nations that probably have to sail for an hour just to reach the waters where the enemy is most active.

Why? You can't ask for better balance and prioritize nations that have a strong nationality-link. If you want balance, you need fluidity. If you want Spain mostly just for the Spaniards and France mostly just for the French then you get exactly what you currently have - niche nations that struggle to recover from population slumps because they have a barrier to entry and appeal to a smaller player pool.

Hell, even as a Swede I'm considering switching away from Sweden just because it went from being international to being mostly German, and thus I wouldn't really care much if it gets removed or becomes obsolete.

You can probably guess that the last thing I would do is to switch to another nation with a strong nationality preference - that makes France a complete no-go and Spain unlikely (unless there's a strong influx of mixed players to it with the clan wars patch, I quite like the idea of going Spanish if the game turns into mostly a GB v Spain clash-of-oppressive-empires thing). It's great for some and terrible for others.

If i would have the choice, i would remove all nation and just make the game a Clan base game with alliances between clan. Some clan may be called France or an another clan name itself Spani i don't care. A clan game is more fluctuant and allow more alliances and less "nationality-like". The problem is that the game is not like that but devs want nations to exist. And i think that people would more purchase the game with french spanish and british beeing possible to play than with portugese dk, sweden and zimbabwe.

Personnaly as said it's not where go my preference but we have to deal with what devs made. What in your opinion would be the nations that need to be represent in the way to make the game more purchased ? How many nation do you think are needed? Is the nation umber a problem?

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29 minutes ago, PIerrick de Badas said:

If i would have the choice, i would remove all nation and just make the game a Clan base game with alliances between clan. Some clan may be called France or an another clan name itself Spani i don't care. A clan game is more fluctuant and allow more alliances and less "nationality-like". The problem is that the game is not like that but devs want nations to exist. And i think that people would more purchase the game with french spanish and british beeing possible to play than with portugese dk, sweden and zimbabwe.

Personnaly as said it's not where go my preference but we have to deal with what devs made. What in your opinion would be the nations that need to be represent in the way to make the game more purchased ? How many nation do you think are needed? Is the nation umber a problem?

Or could we cater to both?

Make Pirates do the Clan vs Clan and Nationals do the Nation vs Nation. Pirate Nation not being a true Nation, but just a label that Nationals put onto anyone not being a National.

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You guys are so weird. What you are doing is making the game more and more boring for an average player. Then you shrink the map and cut down the nations. Maybe you should work on making the game FUN and ADDICTIVE instead?

So many complains on the grinding. Make it easy to build ships, trade and fight instead of making it harder (meaning less time consuming). Some players didnt like first rates, and now the game is totally destroyed becourse of this wish. The duras made good sence. You could fight every night without being totally bancrupt when you lost a ship. Now its GG if your trader brig is captured. Weeks of grinding lay ahead. Its not a forgiving game and the absence of rewards make players leave. 

Once PvP was the best way of making money. Maybe you should try this model once again? Several duras also worked pretty well. The qustion is what to do about them hard core guys once this game is popular again and we fill the OW with great Naval Action? 

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