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Battles open forever: can it be made to work?

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Something @admin has talked about before is his wish to keep PvP battles open forever (rather than close after 3 minutes). My complaint with this was that the placement of new arrivals is too problematic. Nobody wants to have a ship go "poof" and appear on top of them (or in front of them). If not for that, though, I think it's a good idea. Hunting around for battles to join would be a real possibility.

So I wonder if it could be made to work.

Problems:

1) Joiners make the battle uneven.
2) Where do joiners arrive.

So here's my thought:

  • You can join any battle where at least one of the following conditions is met:
    • Your addition will make the BR no worse than 1.5 to 1 in your favor
      - or -
    • Your addition will make the player count no worse than +1 in your favor
      (So like your friend in a Mercury gets jumped by a Surprise. Your Victory will violate the 1.5 BR rule but it won't violate the "+1" rule so you can join. Or your 5 friends in Lynxes are fighting a Victory. Your Lynx will violate the "+1" rule but passes the 1.5 BR check so you can join.)
  • Join location in the battle is right where the original participants started. These locations are clearly marked in the battle.
  • Joiners arrive as a transparent "ghost ship" with a 90 second timer before they materialize and become participants.
  • 90 second timer ticks at one-fifth speed (so a maximum delay of 450 seconds -- 7.5 minutes) if any friendly ships "in combat" are too close to the join circle.
  • Ghost ships can exit at any time before going live with no penalty.

Those last 3 bullet points are what I think would make it be a reasonable idea.

Scenarios:

A. You attack an enemy and he stays around the join circle.
When joiners come in they end up having a 7.5 minute timer before they go live because the friendly being nearby is delaying their entry. That's plenty of time to decide how you want to handle it.

B. You get attacked and help is on the way.
Your best bet is probably to just run away. Your help will be able to go live after 90 seconds rather than 450.

C. You get attacked and help is on the way but a "friendly" alt is blocking the entry.
The alt has to actually stay in combat to block the join circle and your reinforcements WILL eventually get in so avenues of abuse are possible but limited (and will also be very obvious).

 

Current timer mechanics are broken and while the above isn't perfect I'm also not sure if we can arrive at a perfect solution via timers and closed battles, which we've been trying for the last 2 years.

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To keep battles open forever land must be removed from battles. The reinforcements worked perfectly until land was added. 

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4 minutes ago, admin said:

To keep battles open forever land must be removed from battles. The reinforcements worked perfectly until land was added. 

then honestly, maybe that is the solution that must happen.

Edited by Teutonic

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If it's always open battle, nothing to prevent a new "gank" method if ganking is real.  New method, first group member attacks near port, then the rest leave nearest port single file until the enemy is taken.  The enemy cannot leave the battle so is taken eventually after the hull repairs run out or the crew is down to too few.  No chance to escape or fight back.  Maybe I missed how the new timer would prevent that though, not sure?  BR is not a limit because one enters the other leaves, no more than two at a time.

Edited by Jean Ribault

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16 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

then honestly, maybe that is the solution that must happen.

Tfu, tfu, you didn't say it. Land in battles adds lots of tactical approach to them, strategies, more thinking must be involved, it makes battles more immersive.

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17 minutes ago, Peter Goldman said:

Tfu, tfu, you didn't say it. Land in battles adds lots of tactical approach to them, strategies, more thinking must be involved, it makes battles more immersive.

Yeah I'd be loath to give up land in battles. It does really change how battles work and I think it makes you think a lot more.

I'm not really sure what admin means by his statement that reinforcements were perfect (that is not what I remember) or that land in battles makes it impossible.

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Why do people think that forever open battles is a good idea? It only leads to chaos and frustration. I really don't get this.

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I'm all for signaling perk coming back with def. side being allowed to have 1.3 - 1.5 times the attacking BR join.. but endless open battles without any rules, anything can join, will kill off pvp

1u31wx.jpg

Edited by Liquicity

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4 minutes ago, Pada said:

Why do people think that forever open battles is a good idea? It only leads to chaos and frustration. I really don't get this.

You never expect Spanish Inqusition joining your battle.

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Instead of endless open battles which we kinda have with FFA (all battles should have a timer any way when it just ends).  How about we go back to the 5 min, 15 mins or 30 min open windows.  Though the problem with this is what people bitched about before is revenge fleets.  Or hiden gankers that show up after a battle starts.   Hostility missions should never been drop to 5 mins open when we had them.  Sorry those should of stayed open about 15 mins to give folks time to hunt and join them and stop it.  You killed the PvP option on those missons when you dropped it to 5 mins  and they closed.  Specially with folks having the option to telport to friendly port after wards if some one spotted them.  I would love to see these missions return cause the OPEN WORLD GRIND for hostility isn't working with the lacking number of proper fleets in regions.  Make them only at the regional capitals or the port we are flipping if we are going back to the one port system instead of regions.  This will increase the PvP in those areas if folks want to stop the grind.   Now for normal mission around Capital I think they should keep the 3 mins join timer since they are none hostile missions, they are for leveling.  Any missions not in your Capital (safe zone) region should remain this way to help level up new players.  Right now a lot of the PvP is from folks joining these missions and attacking them.  Leaving them open for every will cause more problems than good.

I know folks will bitch about revenge fleets, but why not make the tagging for PvP fights exactly like FFA's.  In FFA"s you tag some one your right next to them in range if your that close.  Normal OW battles they seem a miles away and with the speed meta it's hard to get a good tag (mainly cause of counter tagging and tagging AI fleets) and it get frustrating when you have to tag some one 20 times to finaly get them.   That and remove the super laser beam rear guns.  They should have the same accuracy as any other cannons.  One of the big problems is the Surprise speed meta vs the Trinc Metas is one Surprise can hold off several chasers with it's laser accurate stern guns that hit every time while the chaser (Trincs) might lucky out and get 2 of the 4 tags in place cause of bad accuracy at distances.=

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3 hours ago, admin said:

To keep battles open forever land must be removed from battles. The reinforcements worked perfectly until land was added. 

Why?

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4 hours ago, Liquicity said:

but endless open battles without any rules

That's why there are some rather specific rules being suggested.

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6 hours ago, admin said:

To keep battles open forever land must be removed from battles. The reinforcements worked perfectly until land was added. 

  • Make all battle like Pirate battles.
    • With no support from AI in mission battle you get this shit
      • A Surprise or a Pickle can take out a 1st rate stupid easy by just shooting sails and let AI kill the boat.
        • Make everyone joining a battle red to everyone even NPCs.
        • People will actually have to learn how to fight
        • Stops the Asshats that come in just to steal loot also.
    • Will completely destroy the way Atls are being Used right now.
      • People have friends that are not in same nation this is a Fact.
      • Great example here I was with 3 other US players helping them run up Hostility.
      • The brits pulled out an US alt and tagged me in the middle of my US friends.  Basically they could not beat all 4 of us(1 pirate and 3 US players) with 8 (Brit Players)
      • But a 9 ver 1 is/was a way safer act if you could keep the US players OUT.  They, The US players were stuck out side watching porn as they could not join the battle to help me. THIS is one the many ways how alts are being used and to be denied good  PVP.  That battle would have prob ended the same 4v8 but they(BRITS) were not taken any chances on losing a Ship.
      • It also why your are now starting to lose vet player. With a New tripe A Alpha coming out very soon.  They will not come back They rather play candy crush than this Shit of a grind, lack of any content, game.
Edited by JobaSet

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2 hours ago, JobaSet said:

The brits pulled out an US alt and tagged me in the middle of my US friends.  Basically they could not beat all 4 of us(1 pirate and 3 US players) with 8 (Brit Players)

Huh, that sounds more like something BLACK would pull instead of Brits... Did this supposed alt actually stay in the battle and fight you?  If so I'd say it's probably a legitimate player... Why were you helping out the U.S. anyway? A pirate in the middle of a pack of U.S. players seems like fair game to me...

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11 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Huh, that sounds more like something BLACK would pull instead of Brits... Did this supposed alt actually stay in the battle and fight you?  If so I'd say it's probably a legitimate player... Why were you helping out the U.S. anyway? A pirate in the middle of a pack of U.S. players seems like fair game to me...

I wonder if Jobababy here is trying to make lob an accusation of alt abuse our way.  That'd be ironic wouldn't it?  

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9 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Huh, that sounds more like something BLACK would pull instead of Brits.O please "Something Black would Do"  Go hello kitty your self...what bull shit, you drink way to much koolaid....  do that with a Alt it would hurt us more than help.. Did this supposed alt actually stay in the battle and fight you?  If so I'd say it's probably a legitimate player... Why were you helping out the U.S. anyway? A pirate in the middle of a pack of U.S. players seems like fair game to me...

nope it ran off and parked stay in battle whole time with sails down. It was 100% used to remove me from US friends to manipulate Hostility. Got the Vid

1 minute ago, Christendom said:

I wonder if Jobababy here is trying to make lob an accusation of alt abuse our way.  That'd be ironic wouldn't it?  

Kristy an Accusation is Saying your are a  Pussy or an Asshole baby, when in Fact your just a Dick that can't fight.  Y not attack us 4 v 8 we were rdy for that fight.  You just denied everyone a fight you should have easily won, to one with no risk....Why!!!! you can't fight, The proof is in the Vids mate,  The proof has always been there,  It is seen every battle I have been in with you you out number 3 or more to 1.  Now its 9 to one.  Port battles where you out number us 5 to 3.  Granted you came into party last as I caped a Agy, but you didn't even slow after failed attempt to split a board, left turn and Run and still out numbered us in that circle.  I do not run in Battle it was 9 ver ME and still made many of you back off and regroup.

It dose not mater anymore, I am more or less done with this game, working on another game that Devs really fix problems. I suspect most Pirate will disappear from Global over next 6 weeks so you can have your care bear server.

 

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8 minutes ago, JobaSet said:

nope it ran off and parked stay in battle whole time with sails down. It was 100% used to remove me from US friends to manipulate Hostility. Got the Vid

Post the vid or it didn't happen trollybaby!

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25 minutes ago, JobaSet said:

nope it ran off and parked stay in battle whole time with sails down. It was 100% used to remove me from US friends to manipulate Hostility. Got the Vid

Kristy an Accusation is Saying your are a  Pussy or an Asshole baby, when in Fact your just a Dick that can't fight.  Y not attack us 4 v 8 we were rdy for that fight.  You just denied everyone a fight you should have easily won, to one with no risk....Why!!!! you can't fight, The proof is in the Vids mate,  The proof has always been there,  It is seen every battle I have been in with you you out number 3 or more to 1.  Now its 9 to one.  Port battles where you out number us 5 to 3.  Granted you came into party last as I caped a Agy, but you didn't even slow after failed attempt to split a board, left turn and Run and still out numbered us in that circle.  I do not run in Battle it was 9 ver ME and still made many of you back off and regroup.

It dose not mater anymore, I am more or less done with this game, working on another game that Devs really fix problems. I suspect most Pirate will disappear from Global over next 6 weeks so you can have your care bear server.

 

How would you figure Brits attacking a pirate player in a region where the US trying to grind up hostility be labeled as manipulating hostility?  We saw what looked like US players  chasing a pirate and went in there and sunk you.  You never did answer my PM asking if you were working with the US or not.  We assumed not, so we joined the US side of a player you were chasing and sunk you.  Easy as pie.  

For reference, manipulating alts in the RVR system would be like that one time you escorted in Wish List (your alt) into a US port battle on your pirate mate to get conquest marks and then denied he was your alt on the forums, even making a 2nd account to do so.  You sly dog you!

Actually in the GT PB that would of been a successful boarding split, but the player was unfortunately capped just a couple seconds before I struck him.  

And outside Gasparilla the other day you honestly sailed like shit, we were just teaching some of our newer guys how to retake the wind from players, you were very willing to give it up.  We were simply using you and your 2 ingers as practice to do a little bit of maneuvers.  After capping/or sinking 5-6 4th rates off you over the past couple months, I see you're still using fleet ships.  Sigh.  Never change amigo.

Good luck in your future games.  

Edited by Christendom

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@Slamz this is my view of the battle entry timer: http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/16328-battle-screen-mechanic-exploit/?page=2&tab=comments#comment-309627

As I read the suggestion I wonder whether it'll only change the M.O. of a gank and essentially not do anything. What exactly are you trying to solve with this suggestion?

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well it has been discussed before 

first, we had a 2 minutes timer and ended up with a 3 minutes timer as a compromise

look everything is possible, but if it is a smart thing to do(open for ever) is from an  other dimension

and i do think we have more trouble to have it open forever, then it is now (3 min)

personally, i would go for the 5 minutes open ,but that did not make it. 

 

actually, with the double speed, this time(gap) to join (3 min) has doubled as well compared to the old situation (normal speed)

to reflect:, the 3 minutes normal speed becomes 6 minutes normal speed in distance 

so keep it has it is

 

 

Edited by Thonys

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15 hours ago, admin said:

To keep battles open forever land must be removed from battles. The reinforcements worked perfectly until land was added. 

 

12 hours ago, Wraith said:

Why?

 

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14 hours ago, Pada said:

Why do people think that forever open battles is a good idea? It only leads to chaos and frustration. I really don't get this.

It is not very realistic that a battle happening on the open sea is inaccessible for only some ships while certain ships can enter. Imagine a pub brawl where only certain people could enter and punch, lol I wish

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7 hours ago, Skully said:

What exactly are you trying to solve with this suggestion?

It gets rid of all the timers, mainly.

It also makes it more reasonable to hunt solo -- you're far more likely to find a PvP fight that you can get in on, even if the battle has sailed away from the start point and it takes you a while to catch up.

And my specific suggestions were meant to plug the holes in the general idea of joining an instance late: namely how your arrival works. I think putting joiners at the start location is the least likely to be disruptive (and means land in battle doesn't matter).

 

But I would also support a "WYSIWYG" timer system where anyone not visible on the OW at the time the tag starts cannot get in.
Like:

30 seconds of invis + battle open for 60 seconds + 15 seconds of tag timer = anyone leaving a battle cannot join another battle for 106 seconds (anyone leaving a port and thus not having invis has a 76 second timer -- just enough that if they weren't out of the port 1 second sooner than the tag started, it'll be too late to join. WYSIWYG.)

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17 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Instead of endless open battles which we kinda have with FFA (all battles should have a timer any way when it just ends).  How about we go back to the 5 min, 15 mins or 30 min open windows.  Though the problem with this is what people bitched about before is revenge fleets.  Or hiden gankers that show up after a battle starts.   Hostility missions should never been drop to 5 mins open when we had them.  Sorry those should of stayed open about 15 mins to give folks time to hunt and join them and stop it.  You killed the PvP option on those missons when you dropped it to 5 mins  and they closed.  Specially with folks having the option to telport to friendly port after wards if some one spotted them.  I would love to see these missions return cause the OPEN WORLD GRIND for hostility isn't working with the lacking number of proper fleets in regions.  Make them only at the regional capitals or the port we are flipping if we are going back to the one port system instead of regions.  This will increase the PvP in those areas if folks want to stop the grind.   Now for normal mission around Capital I think they should keep the 3 mins join timer since they are none hostile missions, they are for leveling.  Any missions not in your Capital (safe zone) region should remain this way to help level up new players.  Right now a lot of the PvP is from folks joining these missions and attacking them.  Leaving them open for every will cause more problems than good.

I know folks will bitch about revenge fleets, but why not make the tagging for PvP fights exactly like FFA's.  In FFA"s you tag some one your right next to them in range if your that close.  Normal OW battles they seem a miles away and with the speed meta it's hard to get a good tag (mainly cause of counter tagging and tagging AI fleets) and it get frustrating when you have to tag some one 20 times to finaly get them.   That and remove the super laser beam rear guns.  They should have the same accuracy as any other cannons.  One of the big problems is the Surprise speed meta vs the Trinc Metas is one Surprise can hold off several chasers with it's laser accurate stern guns that hit every time while the chaser (Trincs) might lucky out and get 2 of the 4 tags in place cause of bad accuracy at distances.=

Lol get better texas

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