Turn rates and speeds (frigates vs line ships)

[Barberouge]

I asked on the French forums to a guy who's working on the Hermione, quite a pro of the age of sail. Inertia, draft, windage, mass all affect the maneuverability. The Constitution being lighter, less armed and having less freeboard than a 74, it turns better.

 

As for the exact difference, I'd guess we're back to gameplay balance.

[maturin]

You know someone on Hermione? Would you mind telling him that the ship's media strategy is incredibly frustrating? There are far too few photos or videos that any remotely knowledgeable person would be interested in.

 

We want to see her in stays! In different sea states, clewing up, etc. But all there is on youtube is narrow angle snippets set to music, or 50x speed videos of sailing in a straight line.

 

Actually, I just found this video:

Those crazy bastards are striking all her masts and spars! At sea! With no crane!

 

This is the height of seamanship, some of the most incredibly nautical practice extant on the globe today!

 

And for christ's sake, it's set to house music and played on fast forward, even though the raw video has to exist somewhere. Please keelhaul your project's communications manager.

[Barberouge]

On the vid they say they're preparing the ship for a 40knots wind in the evening.

 

We hear quite a lot about it in France, but the "La Fayette trip" will start only next year. I'd guess there will be full documentaries.

 

He posted more vids here. Most are explanations but there are nice images (and classical music !).

[Sir. Cunningham]

Regarding the turning ability of tall ships:

 

If a 74 SoL has enough of an advantage in sail area that it will outspeed a smaller frigate then doesn't that also confer that it will be able to direct more force to turn itself via tacking ?

 

Of course weight, rudder size & hull length would play a role, but I would think that a bigger ship that has enough sail force to propel itself to a greater top speed would also have said extra force to aid it more during turns and that this would actually make the bigger ship more maneuverable than one might think.

 

That having been said, that 1st rates were cumbersome to maneuver is well known, but take a look at their top speeds as well, the Victory had a top speed of 8-9 knots.

[Sir. Cunningham]

lol didn't even see Barberouge's post until after I posted Excellent post sir!    

[BrutishVulgarian]

A razee like the Indefatigable was essentially a heavy frigate, it just had previous life as a 2 decker. I don't see any reason it shouldn't turn as good, or better than purpose built, long and lean heavy American frigate.

The key point is, they removed an entire gun deck, that is great deal of mass.

One word:

Inertia.

All the extra decks also create a lot more displacement, which creates a lot more wetted surface, which creates a lot more drag. On a 3 decker it, seems like all that mass above the waterline will want to keep going in a straight line, while the extra wetted surface may or may not create "traction" for a turn, idk,

but it would be cool to give captains of 3 deckers the freedom to make a sharp turn at the risk of capsizing, remember, all that weight and top hamper above the waterline is leaning the wrong way. A good helmsman could ride that tipping point between victory or complete disaster, what I like to call "the Vasa line"

[Magnum]

The wind is a fickle mistress, that's why a good sailing master was so important.

 

Royal Navy Captains were there to fight the ship and generally relied on the sailing master to "sail" it.

 

It seems if the player is "playing" the part of Captain - perhaps AI should play the part of sailing master?

 

And a frigate was only slightly (10 - 15%?) more maneuverable than a 74.

 

$.02

[maturin]

 

but it would be cool to give captains of 3 deckers the freedom to make a sharp turn at the risk of capsizing, remember, all that weight and top hamper above the waterline is leaning the wrong way. A good helmsman could ride that tipping point between victory or complete disaster, what I like to call "the Vasa line"

You can't actually capsize a square rigger by turning too fast. It's not a bicycle.

[BlouBulle]

HMS Victory 8/9 kts

USS Constitution 13 kts

 

Now we all know about momentum so yeah I would say the Victory could turn a hard as a Constitution at full speed, however the US ship could likely slow a bit and turn harder?

[BlouBulle]

74, didn't replace 100+ gunner because they hardly ever won against them (with better gunners only), Frigates only sometimes took on 74's because they couldn't stand up to them and 74's struggled to get rid of frigates completely because they were slightly more nimble and could catch a trader or two and still escape the big boys.

 

1st liners would have struggled in single ship battles against 74's due to raking, their place is in a fleet.

 

74's are a nice balance for line battles and enforcing rule in a region however you hardly hear of them going out to take out trade on purpose.

 

Frigates are the fast force of fighting, not tanky enough for a line but able to beat even bigger boats in 1 on 1's.

[BrutishVulgarian]

You can't actually capsize a square rigger by turning too fast. It's not a bicycle.

A bicycle has a 2 gyroscopes and you can lean into the turn. I think a better analogy for a 3 decker would be a small outboard boat with the passengers standing up.

[Magnum]

A bicycle has a 2 gyroscopes and you can lean into the turn. I think a better analogy for a 3 decker would be a small outboard boat with the passengers standing up.

 

Sailing ship are very "bottom heavy" due to ballast. While a large ship might lean till it's decks are awash, it won't turn turtle because of a turn. A small outboard has no ballast to offset the man standing - Victory had 800 or so tonns of ballast.

[BrutishVulgarian]

Cutting decks off, seems pretty drastic, they must have done it for some reason. How much did two decks of iron cannons, ammo, men and extra heavy masts and rigging weigh? Seems like it would take a lot of ballast to counter all that, but if you want 3 deckers to turn like Frigates, don't let physics get in the way.

I will amend my analogy to an aluminum boat with thick lead keel a foot deeper than usual. The passangers are still standing up.

[maturin]

Cutting decks off, seems pretty drastic, they must have done it for some reason.

A reason that had nothing to do with stability.

Razees actually had unfavorable handling characteristics, so far as their movement in high seas was concerned.

Can you imagine a car flipping over from a 10-mph turn? A large sailing vessel just can't generate that kind of centrifugal force at the speeds involved.

The devs never suggesting giving Victory the turn rate of a frigate ahyhow.

[Magnum]

I'll try this again: Victory displaces about 3500 tonns of water - a quite large percentage of those tonns are below the waterline, shot, food, stores, powder and ballast. The first English 1st rate "Mary Rose" was a lesson in the need for ballast.

 

If a wind grabs the rigging and leans Victory over to 35 degrees the force trying to "right" the ship would be huge - much more than the righting force at 5 degrees.

 

Running before the wind at 9 or 10 knots then suddenly turning into a beam reach "might" generate a couple degrees of heel more than a steady beam reach would - but only a couple - certainly not enough to swamp Victory.

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

Sailing ship are very "bottom heavy" due to ballast. While a large ship might lean till it's decks are awash, it won't turn turtle because of a turn. A small outboard has no ballast to offset the man standing - Victory had 800 or so tonns of ballast.

 

I'll add that at a greater degree of heel, the turning ability via the rudder is decreased, as now the rudder is exerting far more vertical force on the water than it would be when there is no heel.  

[Magnum]

Anyone who is interested can learn some about sailing a ship rigged vessel here:

 

Manpower, manpower, manpower!

 

This shows a bit how dependent on wind speed these monsters were (are).

[BrutishVulgarian]

Anyone who is interested can learn some about sailing a ship rigged vessel here:

Manpower, manpower, manpower!

This shows a bit how dependent on wind speed these monsters were (are).

Perhaps a far better reason, you just can't let go of the main sheet and jib sheet as your helmsman swings into beam reach. You have the inertia of a large organization to deal with.

Even you contrarians have to admit the spars, in this game, swing way too fast. The smaller the square rigger the quicker it should turn, if only a human resources issue.

[admin]

please report your latest feedback on turning of lineships vs frigates and turning in general.

[maturin]

Has turning been changed recently?

[Cannonball]

As of yesterday 01 15 2015, I've found the Santisma and Victory's turn radios to still be quit poor. I would like to see a slighty better turn radios for 'fun factor", Other than that I feel turning is something a player can get used to. Additionally using sails obviously helps and makes the game even more skill based than just turn right turn left forward backwards etc... So I am thrilled to see this is real player skill based and not hammering magic skills using hotkey #1 #2 #3 spaecbar spacebar...

 

-Cannonball

[Magnum]

Well, the storm map timer needs extended - once it is littered with Santi's and Vic's that are dismasted and could never turn even with sails - it's like a bunch of forts trying the long range snipe on each other.

 

Then add the wind veering around 90^o and then 90^o back over the hour .....

 

Draw, draw, draw - Sheesh ....

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

As of yesterday 01 15 2015, I've found the Santisma and Victory's turn radios to still be quit poor. I would like to see a slighty better turn radios for 'fun factor", Other than that I feel turning is something a player can get used to. Additionally using sails obviously helps and makes the game even more skill based than just turn right turn left forward backwards etc... So I am thrilled to see this is real player skill based and not hammering magic skills using hotkey #1 #2 #3 spaecbar spacebar...

 

-Cannonball

 

They should remain quite poor in my opinion.  These were not ships meant to maneuver quickly or well, especially Santissima.  

[Sir. Cunningham]

They should remain quite poor in my opinion.  These were not ships meant to maneuver quickly or well, especially Santissima.  

 

Agreed, they maneuver as they should atm, eventhough the ST is perhaps a wee bit too slow to turn compared to the Victory, but then again it's faster so it evens out.

[Illusive Tabby]

Santi is seriously faster than Vic?