Hjalfnar_Feuerwolf Posted September 27, 2017 Share Posted September 27, 2017 (edited) I have 16 gun batteries for tankiness reasons. Does this make sense? How high is the dropoff in damage output? Edited September 27, 2017 by Hjalfnar_Feuerwolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Soldier Posted September 27, 2017 Author Share Posted September 27, 2017 7 hours ago, Hjalfnar_Feuerwolf said: I have 16 gun batteries for tankiness reasons. Does this make sense? How high is the dropoff in damage output? The damage drop off when I tried 16 gun batteries is considerable. Something like 40%. Not worth it in my eyes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitorishizuka Posted September 27, 2017 Share Posted September 27, 2017 If your gun batteries are reliably taking damage at all, you're probably doing something wrong/strange. I would only throw cheapo Howitzers or 6pdrs away like that with a rookie brigade (there's an idea, wither them away on purpose on point blank duty with bad cannons). Even then it's generally possible to position even your point blank artillery behind the infantry in a way to shield them even from splash/chip damage from the enemy artillery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre Bolkonsky Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 On 9/27/2017 at 11:14 AM, Hitorishizuka said: If your gun batteries are reliably taking damage at all, you're probably doing something wrong/strange. I would only throw cheapo Howitzers or 6pdrs away like that with a rookie brigade (there's an idea, wither them away on purpose on point blank duty with bad cannons). Even then it's generally possible to position even your point blank artillery behind the infantry in a way to shield them even from splash/chip damage from the enemy artillery. That is EXACTLY how I stripe up green artillery brigades. Give them cheap FREE guns, park them right behind the line, and reevaluate them at the end of the battle. If they gain a stripe, add logistics, and give them real cannon, and add them to the Artillery Park. Form a new brigade of green artillerists and give them the 6 pounders. Repeat as needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hjalfnar_Feuerwolf Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 My cannons mostly take losses because I have them close behind my lines, and I am (at least in offensive battles) almost constantly advancing. I am a huge fan of human wave in this game, supported by the additional speed and stamina through general and unit skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre Bolkonsky Posted October 3, 2017 Share Posted October 3, 2017 12 minutes ago, Hjalfnar_Feuerwolf said: My cannons mostly take losses because I have them close behind my lines, and I am (at least in offensive battles) almost constantly advancing. I am a huge fan of human wave in this game, supported by the additional speed and stamina through general and unit skill. Is your commanders name "Freidrich D. Grosse" by any chance? All I see is a big echelon checkerboard now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hjalfnar_Feuerwolf Posted October 4, 2017 Share Posted October 4, 2017 Sadly not, no. xD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaM Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 Personally, i try to have single artillery unit for infantry division, and usually go with 3-4guns per 1000 men in division.. so if I have 3 brigades with 1500 men, then i have artillery battery with 12-18 guns to support them, preferably 12lber Napoleons (if possible). I also keep 2 batteries of Rifles in last "division", which kinda supplements the role of Corps reserve, where i also have some cavalry or skirmishers. This way, i have my divisional artillery with my infantry, and rifled guns in the back ready to support my attacks from long range. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yogol Posted December 20, 2017 Share Posted December 20, 2017 (edited) Is there any data about the efficiency of cannon brigades with the latest/final build of the game? Does a 24-gun brigade still loses 40% of it's efficiency, even with a high-enough commander? Or is this bug fixed? I know that the supply-trait is still bugged, but I do not know about this. Anyone? Also... if I bring in 10,000 supply and I have one single 24-gun brigade, will the supply run out twice as fast as when I bring one single 12-gun brigade? It's difficult to test, so I thought I better ask here before I try to test this somehow. Edited December 20, 2017 by Yogol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Soldier Posted December 20, 2017 Author Share Posted December 20, 2017 Artillery brigades with more than 12 guns still suffer large losses in killing power. Supply traits are probably still bugged. 24-gun batteries will eat up twice as much supply as a 12-gun battery despite being much less effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaM Posted December 21, 2017 Share Posted December 21, 2017 One additional possible layer for artillery to consider is the fact that artillery rate of fire was in reality not influenced by technical limitation of the gun itself, but was influenced by amount of available ammo... they would not fire at maximum possible rate of fire at long range.. instead, they would reduce rate of fire significantly, so their ammo supply would be sufficient for them, for entire battle (at Lutzen 1813, french artillery fired for 9 hours, with rate of fire 1 shot every 3 minutes. at same battle, French guard battery fired for 2 hours, with rate of fire of 1 shot per 90 seconds) Maximum rate of fire would be usually used only in emergencies, when artillery had to fire against enemy that is closing in on their positions. is such situation, rate of fire could be increased to 2-8 rounds per minute (based on gun type) Anyway, i guess such thing complicates the artillery setup for games quite a lot, especially with the supply system implemented... artillery firing with reduced rate of fire would run through own ammo a lot slower, therefore would not need to be resupplied that fast, but of course, its effect on target would be reduced as well... yet in long range gunnery, effect on target was minimal anyway, therefore it made no sense wasting ammo in rapid fire. Maybe something Devs could think about for artillery in the future - make rate of fire variable based on distance to target - closer it is, faster artillery reloads, up to its construction speed.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeK Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 A ell-laid fire of shot or shell is the most effective use of ammunition and more accurate. The barrel is kept cooler, well-swabbed, fused etc. Whereas canister (case) should get faster the nearer a dangerous target. When at risk from small arms fire of formed troops, stepping up rolling fire by the battery to attack the infantry's nerves and distract and disorganize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A. P. Hill Posted February 15, 2018 Share Posted February 15, 2018 (edited) Be careful, do not confuse two different ammunitions as one or the same. Canister did not require an internal charge as Case did. There are limits when it is appropriate to use one or the other. And while there are stories (reports,) out there where in desperate situations, fusing were removed from Case, there are inherent danger in doing so. Edited February 15, 2018 by A. P. Hill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Soldier Posted December 23, 2018 Author Share Posted December 23, 2018 I should post this here for posterity's sake. Some graphs I made a few months ago on how battery size affects kills. This first one is direct data from my test, using 4, 8, 12, 16, 20, and 24 gun batteries. This one is from data extrapolated from the original test, going from 4 guns to 24 guns every 1 gun. As you can see, 24-gun batteries are quite bad. Worse, in fact, than a battery one-sixth the size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cosmique Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 what's the reasoning behind decreased effectiveness of batteries using over 12 guns? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Soldier Posted January 7, 2019 Author Share Posted January 7, 2019 17 hours ago, cosmique said: what's the reasoning behind decreased effectiveness of batteries using over 12 guns? I can't see a reason behind it. It hasn't gotten fixed yet, so I can only assume it's either intended or too late to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mbuehn Posted March 4, 2021 Share Posted March 4, 2021 There could be historic rationale for nerfing larger artillery units- they arent meant to be used simultaneously. A battery that large would use a tremendous amount of ammunition and present a tempting target. Instead a portion would be placed nearby to replace damage as the battle raged. I think thats also a reasonable excuse to plump up batteries in game. In a long fight like Fredericksburg where smoothbores are gonna be taking casualties, an oversized battery would be widdled down to maximum efficiency right when the fight is fiercest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandakraut Posted March 4, 2021 Share Posted March 4, 2021 (edited) Decreased efficiency due to the unit being difficult to command or what not makes sense, but the current numbers seem way out of line for that concept. To make up an example, if 24 cannon only did 1.5x more damage than 12 cannon instead of 2x more damage that would be fairly intuitive. But instead 24 cannon deal .5x the damage of 12 cannon. That seems like a rather extreme interpretation of decreased efficiency no matter how much you stretch the justification. To supplement the graphs above, datamined damage numbers based on unit size and exact damage curves for all weapons can be found here: https://forum.game-labs.net/topic/26142-hidden-mechanics-and-weapon-damage-degradation/ Edited March 4, 2021 by pandakraut Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorehouse Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 newbie here. just checking to see if the previous info is still correct or if game equipment .mods has altered the Artillery's landscape. in particular, 12 gun battery, 20 pounder, 3" ordinance, wiard, and 24 pounder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandakraut Posted March 1, 2022 Share Posted March 1, 2022 3 hours ago, scorehouse said: newbie here. just checking to see if the previous info is still correct or if game equipment .mods has altered the Artillery's landscape. in particular, 12 gun battery, 20 pounder, 3" ordinance, wiard, and 24 pounder? Depends on the mod. Several mods update the size curves so that 14 cannon is no longer the best possible damage. The J&P mod and its submods completely rework most of the cannon so this guide would only apply in the most general sense. You'd want to rely on the updated tooltips and such for those. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorehouse Posted March 2, 2022 Share Posted March 2, 2022 I should have said Dev in house updates/patches/fixes/enhancements/restrictions, etc. since the start of the thread and the Guide go back a few years. I was using all 24 gun maxxed out Artillery units. still haven't accumulated enuff 20's and I'm about to start Anteet? basically looking for any tips like are the most expensive weapons worth it for Calvary and skirmishers? is it best to accumulate Points for the morale boost or turn them in for weapons, Generals, extra men/money? any ez way to determine topography to work from high ground? don't see an elevation/topography map and I've never been good at seeing depth on maps. thanks!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandakraut Posted March 2, 2022 Share Posted March 2, 2022 12 hours ago, scorehouse said: I should have said Dev in house updates/patches/fixes/enhancements/restrictions, etc. since the start of the thread and the Guide go back a few years. I was using all 24 gun maxxed out Artillery units. still haven't accumulated enuff 20's and I'm about to start Anteet? basically looking for any tips like are the most expensive weapons worth it for Calvary and skirmishers? is it best to accumulate Points for the morale boost or turn them in for weapons, Generals, extra men/money? any ez way to determine topography to work from high ground? don't see an elevation/topography map and I've never been good at seeing depth on maps. thanks!! Last official patch was back in 2018. The guide itself is up to date as of the latest patch. Unless you are using a mod that fixes it, you are directly reducing your damage by using an artillery unit larger than 14. A 24 gun unit does slightly less damage than a 4 gun unit. For cavalry effective range is the most important stat for carbines. For melee cav only the melee stat really matters, and lematts are fun but not really worth the extra cost. For skirmishers you want the best possible long range rifles for sniping, anything else isn't really useful. Unless you are going with a melee heavy setup that needs morale or playing ironman, spend all your reputation. A few point morale loss is not important compared to thousands of extra rifles. You can hit tab and zoom in to see the topography a bit better, but most maps are relatively flat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorehouse Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 thanks. damn. I just bought a bunch of Lematts. what about the Henry? how long before I can acquire enough to use in the field? or once again not worth it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandakraut Posted March 3, 2022 Share Posted March 3, 2022 12 hours ago, scorehouse said: thanks. damn. I just bought a bunch of Lematts. what about the Henry? how long before I can acquire enough to use in the field? or once again not worth it? If you've already got them enjoy the lematts. Still gives you the strongest possible melee cav. Henry is pretty bad unfortunately. Spencer is ok, but still not great. Spencer carbines are good though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scorehouse Posted March 8, 2022 Share Posted March 8, 2022 thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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