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koltes

Invisibility + Speed = Revenge Fleet sorted = Immunity for gankers

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Speed buffs, invisibility, teleportation ... It all seems so gamey and convoluted .

If I have a faster ship, have the wind and am paying attention I should be able to escape,  regardless of how badly my opponent wants PvP.  Unless my opponent has enough ships (players) to cover a vast area.  Slower ships should not be able to escape by magic even if the captain wants to take a break.

I'd like to test Kote's idea.

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We have no complex wind/rig, no crew quality ( btw US was second only to Denmark during 1812 war ) and many other real life elements that the game does not aims to mimic. Throw F11 coordinates, real time player position tool and radio comms in all ships ( all short wave that can travel 'around the world'), also add bot sentries relaying through the player own infrastructure or through extra game third parties, which do peek into all telegraph messages being printed... and yeah...

... suddenly the simple becomes a lot more complicated.

Chases like the "Long Chase" that can be found in all 1670 - 1820 Naval Action time frame. It is not ONE unique situation. 

All suggestions welcome. Given the above it is a question of selecting not the best, but the less worse.

What is better or worse in all RoE/Battle Exit situations we tested ? What makes this one especially interesting ? Does it consider ALL potential playstyles ? All types of ships ?

How does it deal with "RL" communications players have ? How can it be broken ?

A lot of these quantifiable factor can be weighed into all suggestions, so better keep the discussion focused :)

 

I like the distinction between the Attacker and the attacked. The responsibility is on the Attacker and he will not be under the same circumstances.

 

 

 

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totally disagree with the OP

revenge gank fleets were killing PvP

sail in a group or join the PvE server

hunters shouldn't be penalized due to individuals being too lazy to sail in groups, and then wanting their entire nation to camp the battle to beat up on the 1-4 hunters who have the balls to sail to enemy ports

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4 minutes ago, ShroudedRecluse said:

totally disagree with the OP

revenge gank fleets were killing PvP

sail in a group or join the PvE server

hunters shouldn't be penalized due to individuals being too lazy to sail in groups, and then wanting their entire nation to camp the battle to beat up on the 1-4 hunters who have the balls to sail to enemy ports

Totally disagree to this ganker who has no arguments at all.

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8 minutes ago, ShroudedRecluse said:

revenge gank fleets were killing PvP

Riskless gankings kills population and with that the whole game.

Current system absolutely favors attackers. As a result hunting groups terrorise the enemies capitols.

Victims: New Players, Unlucky Players, Casuals, ..

Winners: Veterans

 

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50 minutes ago, Macjimm said:

Speed buffs, invisibility, teleportation ... It all seems so gamey and convoluted .

If I have a faster ship, have the wind and am paying attention I should be able to escape,  regardless of how badly my opponent wants PvP.  Unless my opponent has enough ships (players) to cover a vast area.  Slower ships should not be able to escape by magic even if the captain wants to take a break.

I'd like to test Kote's idea.

ahem, control perk.

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my argument, harsh as it may be, is learn to sail

i could also argue why favor the carebears on the PvP server when there is a PvE server specifically for them

last night i sank a few ships around belize/salamanca - got the usual 'you guys are f*cking arseholes' etc etc

however one british captain, a Master and Commander, was very plucky and trying his hardest, with no bitching or whining

i struck up a conversation with him and offered to give him some pointers - nobody in his nation has taught him how to manual sail properly, defend his sails from chain, angle his hull against an incoming broadside to try and deflect damage etc

so this 'ganker' you speak of, is meeting up with this british captain to teach him some of the essentials

don't dumb the game to the lowest common denominator, raise the level of the skill of the captains, even if they are the 'enemy' such as in this case

we are all gamers wanting to have fun on a PvP server

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A thought. If its so damn easy to "escape".. then why are people getting "ganked"...

I mean, if I can escape a "coastal defense fleet" so easily, then why cant these mysterious "gankees"??

Edited by Vernon Merrill

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Just now, Vernon Merrill said:

ahem, control perk.

I have no idea what that means.

And what I was trying to say in my previous post was that I don't understand the intricate and complex mechanisms that will allow balanced PvP in an MMO but ... if I have a very fast ship and am prepared to sacrifice size and strength I should be able to flee and get away.  Unless I am in an area with a vast number of enemy that are distributed evenly.

I'm sympathetic to the challenge that the Devs have, but I hope there is some solution that will allow the really fast little ships to escape slower ones.  And visa- versa - really slow ships should not be able to escape

Edited by Macjimm
Clarification
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41 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said:

They cant...  if you run the "Area Control" perk...

Thanks Vernon.  Good point.

But a fast ship should not need a perk to hold a slow ship in an instance.  And slow ships should be able to be re tagged indefinitely.

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1 hour ago, Vernon Merrill said:

They cant...  if you run the "Area Control" perk...

 

Re-Read Option 1 and Option 2. Frankly its not only about the attacker and his gameplay. Its also about the home defense and population of new / casual players that also needs to have a chance and rest from this so called hunting which is nothing more than a local griefing 

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Keep current mechanics but add warning that you are on a pvp server when you hit sail and pop the warning once again when you leave green zone.

 

Home fleet wasnt present to deflect or counter "gank" fleet or hunter. Why should home fleet suddenly teleport home from 1000k away and be on top of the battle after a call in nation chat/ts. If defensive tags is the problem bring more faster ships in your magically teleported fleet, maybe nerf the speed boost some

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Last night I ran the gambit with my clan ganking a pirate santi and a couple frigates coming back from missions out of MT.  Successfully sunk the santi and the frigatesmand we spread out our guys like roaches trying to evade the 25 pirates (Koltes clan) sitting outside to re-tag us.  Myself and another were personally tagged 2-3x over the course of 2 hours and eventually ended up sinking.  4 out of 6 of us did not make it back to port with out boats.  This is of course the price you pay for hunting outside the capital and of course sinking a lineship, but it did leave me thinking that this current system is honestly bullshit.  The invis doesn't really matter if there are 25 players spread out and everyone and their brother can get a ship up to 14knts+ to chase you long enough to run out of repairs.  After about 2 hours of chasing I just said screw it and turned around to let them cap me. 

The current system isn't really enjoyable.  To find meaningful PVP on servers that are populated with 1/4 of the folks that should be on them you need to stray near the capitals and if you go near the capitals it's a pretty good chance you'll lose your ship unless you can go 15knts.  

Bring back the teleport to nearest freetown or something similar.  OR bring back the old system of ship speeds.  14knt bellonas is kinda bullshit when the fastest surprise or endy can only go 15.  

 

 

 

Edited by Christendom
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1 hour ago, Christendom said:

 14knt bellonas is kinda bullshit when the fastest surprise or endy can only go 15.  

Totally agree.

Mods that mimic history, such as: copper plating; lightweight ropes and blocks; optimized rudder (and others similar to these) are the only type of speed mods that should be available for ships. Combine these with the different wood types that are already in the game, and that is all that should be necessary for speed builds.

Magic mods that enable ships to be grossly overpowered in any category hurt the game in my opinion. They can artificially create too large a gap between two identical ships or artificially create too narrow a gap between two completely different ships. 

Edited by Captiva
wording
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Invisibility and speed buff should only last as long as you were in battle divided by 10.   In battle for 10min, 1min invisibility/boost,  in battle for 90min, get 9 minutes of invisibility/boost.    Minimum of 1min boost.

 

 

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7 hours ago, koltes said:

No you don't understand man. They sailed TOGETHER. Yes they got tagged outside the view range, but the actual distance is in the OW is still the same.
Let me use a Real Life hypothetical example.
Chase is going. Fast ships got away outside visibility and were able to engage in the fight. Fights of that era could easily last hours. There is a fleet following behind. They KNOW where the fight is. They can hear the cannonades. They can see the smoke. Boom.. there is an invisible wall that stops them from joining. Hmm 

Outside view range is typically a lot longer than a 3 hour sail.  It's about 30km.  Between 1780-1829, looking at the average speed of ships in moderate breeze, it will take about 6 hours to get there (based on average speeds from the logbooks of 38,000 Royal Navy and EIC ships - 280,000 daily log entries).  In 1830 this would take 5 hours.  1750 6.6 hours.  Battles can last fewer than 15 minutes.  Chesapeake vs Shannon being one of them.  Or they can last significantly longer like you mention.  This is why I say a we need a system for joining based on distance and time.  You join this late, you spawn this far away.

Edited by Prater
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2 hours ago, koltes said:

Re-Read Option 1 and Option 2. Frankly its not only about the attacker and his gameplay. Its also about the home defense and population of new / casual players that also needs to have a chance and rest from this so called hunting which is nothing more than a local griefing 

How is "one-porting" a nation anything more than a "local griefing"?...

 

You dont want your "noobs" to feel pain, then dont make our "noobs" feel the pain...

1 effect, 2 methods.

Edited by Vernon Merrill
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3 hours ago, Vernon Merrill said:

How is "one-porting" a nation anything more than a "local griefing"?...

 

You dont want your "noobs" to feel pain, then dont make our "noobs" feel the pain...

1 effect, 2 methods.

Yep. These guys constantly make posts about making the game better, but still continue to bully every nation on global and threaten to 1 port everyone as punishment for sinking their noobs they refuse to protect.  The US generated a couple port battles to create content and then these guys punished them by attacking 2 ports they couldn't hope to defend.  This talking out of both sides of the mouth crap gets old.   

these bad hombres need to start practicing what they preach or just finally accept they are the sole reason why pvp global RVR is dead.  

Edited by Christendom
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4 hours ago, Vernon Merrill said:

How is "one-porting" a nation anything more than a "local griefing"?...

 

You dont want your "noobs" to feel pain, then dont make our "noobs" feel the pain...

1 effect, 2 methods.

 

4 hours ago, Christendom said:

Yep. These guys constantly make posts about making the game better, but still continue to bully every nation on global and threaten to 1 port everyone as punishment for sinking their noobs they refuse to protect.  The US generated a couple port battles to create content and then these guys punished them by attacking 2 ports they couldn't hope to defend.  This talking out of both sides of the mouth crap gets old.   

these bad hombres need to start practicing what they preach or just finally accept they are the sole reason why pvp global RVR is dead.  

Oh I see two butt hurts here. Is your reply purelly based on whats going on with your clan? This topic is not about us one porting anyone, its not about french invading my capital or brits hunting, its not about koltes, vernon or chris. Its about bad mechanic that need to be fixed and balanced. If you want to talk about black vs gb vs french please start another.

@Vernon Merrill I also dont favor one porting nations. Of course I will do that same as you will hide and camp in battles. We do this because game allows us to do it. In regards one porting nations I have expressed my opinion many times that nation territories needs to have permanent land. Looks like devs listen to us and going to do something about. This however is a different discussion. Please dont make it political BS again

You have to understand. I dont fight on forums. Right now I'm not a pirate or solo hunter or BLACK RvR player. Right now I'm a tester of NA game (just like you Vernon and you Chris), its OUR game and my ONLY desire is to make it playable for all sides no matter clans or whats going on in the game in terms of politics. Can two of you just forget that you are a different nation and remember that we ALL are players of ONE game and that we are here to talk mechanics and help devs to make it work.

Edited by koltes
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5 hours ago, Prater said:

Outside view range is typically a lot longer than a 3 hour sail.  It's about 30km.  Between 1780-1829, looking at the average speed of ships in moderate breeze, it will take about 6 hours to get there (based on average speeds from the logbooks of 38,000 Royal Navy and EIC ships - 280,000 daily log entries).  In 1830 this would take 5 hours.  1750 6.6 hours.  Battles can last fewer than 15 minutes.  Chesapeake vs Shannon being one of them.  Or they can last significantly longer like you mention.  This is why I say a we need a system for joining based on distance and time.  You join this late, you spawn this far away.

Look, I'm trying to focus on playability of the game for all sides. I have no problems with 3 min timers. I think they work great and are great compromise. If battle starts even outside view range the fleet is still able to catch up down wind. Upwind though luck, they will be waiting outside. If support started chased together and were leaded all that time to the chased its fair that they have a chance to catch up. If battle started and after that player is asking for support 9 times out of 10 the support will not come on time. 3 minutes is not enough for a quick response and inability to tell your exact location. Dont think anything needs to be changed here. 

The topic is all about tagging game and battle camping. Besides you gave me the idea of no join no attack timer and I think its brilliant

Edited by koltes
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9 hours ago, Sven Silberbart said:

Riskless gankings kills population and with that the whole game.

Current system absolutely favors attackers. As a result hunting groups terrorise the enemies capitols.

Victims: New Players, Unlucky Players, Casuals, ..

Winners: Veterans

 

System favors people who are aware and exercise initiative, not people with poor situational awareness who only want to play reactively.

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Invisible ships are historical, hysterically historical,

Invisible ships are historical, my fair lady

Defensive tags are historical, hysterically historical,

Defensive tags are historical, my fair lady! 

When one can't outgun,

One must always run,

When one can't outsail,

There must be no trail, 

When chasers appear,

Them we shouldn't fear,

Historically hysterical we are the true raiders! 

All enemy ships are magical, magically magical, 

All enemy ships we attack at range, and make our free escape! 

Huzzah! 

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On 8/9/2017 at 3:07 AM, Christendom said:

Last night I ran the gambit with my clan ganking a pirate santi and a couple frigates coming back from missions out of MT.  Successfully sunk the santi and the frigatesmand we spread out our guys like roaches trying to evade the 25 pirates (Koltes clan) sitting outside to re-tag us.  Myself and another were personally tagged 2-3x over the course of 2 hours and eventually ended up sinking.  4 out of 6 of us did not make it back to port with out boats.  This is of course the price you pay for hunting outside the capital and of course sinking a lineship, but it did leave me thinking that this current system is honestly bullshit.  The invis doesn't really matter if there are 25 players spread out and everyone and their brother can get a ship up to 14knts+ to chase you long enough to run out of repairs.  After about 2 hours of chasing I just said screw it and turned around to let them cap me. 

The current system isn't really enjoyable.  To find meaningful PVP on servers that are populated with 1/4 of the folks that should be on them you need to stray near the capitals and if you go near the capitals it's a pretty good chance you'll lose your ship unless you can go 15knts.  

Bring back the teleport to nearest freetown or something similar.  OR bring back the old system of ship speeds.  14knt bellonas is kinda bullshit when the fastest surprise or endy can only go 15.  

I agree on this one. If you get in the national capital and sunk someone, there should be a way for defenders to come and hunt you. However if you were able to run from them (earn your Slip Away card) then you should be able to run for good.
Maybe if you earned the Invisibility and Speed inside the battle you get 3 minutes of invisibility and the speed buff so you could definitely get out. However you should be able to stop invisibility any time you want. This would let you to get away for sure as good as teleport, but you still have to earn it in the battle. Escape in the battle. For example when you tagged me (when I ran onto shallows couple of nights ago) if I got out simply because you missed the tag that should not give me the Slip Away invisibility and speed buff. Exiting the battle is already good enough reward for that. But if I could increase the distance to 1250 between us then I have ran away and I get the invisibility and speed in the OW.

 

On 8/9/2017 at 5:49 AM, Christendom said:

Yep. These guys constantly make posts about making the game better, but still continue to bully every nation on global and threaten to 1 port everyone as punishment for sinking their noobs they refuse to protect.  The US generated a couple port battles to create content and then these guys punished them by attacking 2 ports they couldn't hope to defend.  This talking out of both sides of the mouth crap gets old.   

these bad hombres need to start practicing what they preach or just finally accept they are the sole reason why pvp global RVR is dead.  

Who have we one ported? Chill out. Relax and play the game. In terms of attacking ports... hmm we are playing the game right? The war is on. Right? You have not surrendered. Right? this is PVP server. Right? What are you on about? US could attack your ports, Danes, Dutch, French. They choose pirates. We replied.
I understand that you think that wars should be fought in a different way... well maybe, this is why you cant win?
We are not making claims to make server better. Its another BS that you have made up and keep bringing up. The only reason why we want server to be live is because of OUR game. Not yours.
Here, below I have already chewed this up for someone else. Its perfectly ok to insert your comment instead to this answer.

On 7/28/2017 at 11:28 PM, koltes said:

Meanwhile you take a port while claming some moral high ground on the good of the game.
Let me get this straight right now. I don't claim any high morals. Never have. Frankly we don't give a damn.
Get this right. I play MY game. Not yours, not your friends. I play MY game. I play for myself. Not for you or your brother.
We care about server population not because of some high morals you speak off (another thing you have made up about pirates) while your nation has done more backstabbing than the whole server combined. We care about server population not because we care about you. We don't even pretend about what we really think about your sorry whining lot. We care about server pop because of ourselves. We want this game to continue because we like it. If any wining kids will quit it I don't give a damn. We want sailors, not wailers.
So please filter yourself out. Those who wants to play will stay and play.

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