Preliminary discussion of the changes to conquest - clan wars are coming

[Archaos]

45 minutes ago, Anolytic said:

It is better that people can converge into 2-3 war companies that compete over controlling the majority of the map. Every now a new war company will arise and challenge the big ones, maybe replace one of them, or if there is enough players and resources join in the tug and tow.

Do you really think that the RvR game will develop into 2-3 big war companies? I doubt it very much, all you have to do is look at the Brits for example and although they are the most populous nation they also have more clans in relation to population than most other nations. Why do they not just have 1 or 2 big clans doing RvR? because there are differences in their aims and goals and differing personalities leading them. I think much the same will happen with War Companies. A lot will depend on how they finalize the mechanics.

[Slamz]

That's another reason I hope we can be in a clan and a war company at the same time (devs seem to keep specifically dodging that question, unless I missed the answer somewhere in this).

These small, independent minded clans are not going to disband and put themselves under the leadership of some war company leader. At the same time, I seriously doubt a clan like CCCP will allow other Danes to join them if that's what a war company means. They will stay independent.

If you can only join one or the other, I think only BLACK and CCCP will have functional war companies. Creating a war company of less than 25 active port battle players will be useless.

[Archaos]

55 minutes ago, Slamz said:

That's another reason I hope we can be in a clan and a war company at the same time (devs seem to keep specifically dodging that question, unless I missed the answer somewhere in this).

These small, independent minded clans are not going to disband and put themselves under the leadership of some war company leader. At the same time, I seriously doubt a clan like CCCP will allow other Danes to join them if that's what a war company means. They will stay independent.

If you can only join one or the other, I think only BLACK and CCCP will have functional war companies. Creating a war company of less than 25 active port battle players will be useless.

The thing is if you have different clans that can come together in a War Company, they may as well be in the same clan, if not you will get the same disagreements as you currently have in nations and it will create confusion if a War Company breaks up, who gets to keep the ports and income etc. If you look at nations as big War Company you will see the problems of having different clans in a War Company.

The way any clan or war company works effectively is if they have proper leadership who are all of the same mind, rather than different leaders of smaller groups trying to come to consensus. 

[Sir Texas Sir]

 

4 hours ago, Intrepido said:

If the devs are so worry about the new player experience, they should:

Fix the gold grinding PvP rewards still needs fixing.

Fix the xp grinding PvP rewards needs fixing still and some of the Ship knowledge for higher tier ships is insane.  I get the last few slots, but the first 2-3 slots shoud be double what it took to get the last slot not 3-4 times.  They said the average ships should have about 2-3 slots.

Make new pve content Hoepfully will come later, but we need main mechanics to be honestly finished and worked out first.

Make new tools for easier navigation I know folks hated the GPS thing, but lets be honest it was very New player friendly.  Just no dot of your location and keep the protractor thing for plotting courses.  Or just gives means to set multi courses on the map is all.  Even with the GPS cords you still had to figure out where that was on the map.

Make some small rookie zone safe from gank squads (only active until they reach post captain rank for example) Post Captain?  Dude that is rank 7 and 350.  You are not a rookie any more for that level.  I can see maybe the first two levels, but I"m sorry after about rank 3-4 your no longer a rookie.  By than you should know the basics of the game.

Make some tutorials. Hard to do when game mechanics are still constantly changing, though we could us  some updated videos that we can show new players.

Make that people get crafting xp by doing materials, not only ships. Totally agree with this and mission xp and travel xp should go towards your ship knowledge xp.  I also think xp for damage needs to return. Keep credits and marsk based off kills and assist but make xp by damage.  To many battlles some one comes in to help by shooting sails or just keeping some one tag and they get zero reward cause they didn't do enough damge to get an assist.

 

 

3 hours ago, Slamz said:

My prediction for how this will play out on PvP Global: total flop.

Pirates will form a War Clan.
France will not.
Dutch will not.
Spain will not.
Swedes will not.
Brits might but it won't work -- not enough people or coordination.
USA -- see Brits.
Danes will but they won't fight the Pirates.

I think you underestimate US and GB.  They have the numbers but they just need to get their heads out of their  arse and get organized.  They didn't loose as many players as folks think, the problem is they have a very very very very very large numbers of PvErs that only come out to fight

3 hours ago, Slamz said:

...What if a War Clan can only own 5 ports?

Than large clans and such will just make up more than one War Company to own more than 5 ports.

3 hours ago, Slamz said:

If history is any lesson, people will use their forged papers to all go to the team that's conveying the largest benefits.

You might think they'd go to another team and form up a competitive war clan but please state for the record an example of that ever happening.

USA gets beat down by Pirates and Brits, half go Pirate, others go Brit Half did not go pirate, one clan of around 10 did and a few others.  As for going Brits that was way more players with VCO and TF clans. 

Dutch gets beat down by France, most go Dane, which had a peace treaty with France.

Brit Aussies join the Chinese in the Danes rather than fight them.

Brits get a beating by the Pirates and a lot join the Pirates. Again your math is way off and even with the clans going Danes and France it was only a few that went pirates (small clan) US and Brits still have more players than other nations, they just all don't want to fight.   VCO and TF did fill a full PB at GT and we where short one.  So they numbers when they want to come out.  WE only had so many in SLM cause a lot of the guy jumped from one port battle to the other as they had ports in both locations.  

I have yet to see an example of, say, a bunch of Pirates going "we really need to compete with BLACK. Let's join the Spanish!" People never use their forged papers to create better PvP. We can say this about a few Nationals too that jumped ship.  Most of the other Pirate clans on GLOBAL are very small and have very new players.  It prob wouldn't turn out well for them if they did that.  Not to mention we can all ready have our own wars  in Nation, just ask HELL clan how that one turned out in less than 48 hours.

It would be hilarious to see the Chinese go "f this, stop joining us" so they all go Swede and kill the new Danes. Not gonna happen though.  If CCCP joins any one it would be Pirates and vs verses, but that would be just silly and kill the server having that force.  Though we have joked if enough folks joined pirates we all have two sets of forged papers we can roll Spain or some other nation and crush those Pirates that jumped ship until they jump again and run out of forged papers. 

 

3 hours ago, Jean Ribault said:

So you see why so many suggestions have been made over and over again stating that distribution control is required for joining nations.  Whatever the methodology is, it's the only way to control this sort of thing.  The flipside is that people don't want to be limited, but you can't have your cake and eat it too, unfortunately.

I don't think Forged papers users should be allowed to go to the winning team.  It's hard to lock things out by population cause they have to go off active players not just size of the nation as a whole.  I know other games won't allow you to join the wining side if you change.  I like the fact some of them do bonus for joining 

[Kanay]

4 hours ago, Intrepido said:

If the devs are so worry about the new player experience, they should:

Fix the gold grinding

Fix the xp grinding

Make new pve content

Make new tools for easier navigation

Make some small rookie zone safe from gank squads (only active until they reach post captain rank for example)

Make some tutorials.

Make that people get crafting xp by doing materials, not only ships.

 

Helping new players is just an excuse to flip the tables and do something esle to try stop the hemoragy of players leaving before the patient is out of blood, those players having no more hopes in this company and the constant things done and undone a bit later, but nothing new in the end,  this last proposition will turn into another mess and be undone like all the rest or will just put the last nail on the coffin... it won't fix Nations balance as exposed to be a problem in game, will just make players switch for clans instead of Nations, and make it a hell for traders, solo players or smaller clans at the same time... but hopefully for them it will give a few months delay for the dying patient and by this time NA arena will be ready probably ...

Admin spoke of new players bla bla ... at the same time in the initial proposition the idea was to basically turn the entire map into free towns for all players not being part of a war company ... Seriously how had this helped new players ? Did they throw out this idea without even thinking at the possible consequences of having all cities basically turned into free towns or are they just trolling us saying one thing and doing the exact opposite of what is needed ?? If it's the first option there is no more hope for this game, development is going nowhere if they can't even think at basic things like th consequences of such decision when doing brainstorming sessions...

 

[Pagan Pete]

This patch will be as disastrous as the Trump presidency.

The reintroduction of reinforcements and elimination of free ports will kill off Historical Brand Pyracy! Which is the only kind they Game Labs has ever said the want to encourage.

 (Reinforcements: ships summed by high tech radio gear, which then use matter-antimatter engines to space fold into your vicinity instantly. Without regards to the laws of General Relativity Newtonian Physics.)

I WILL NOT play in a game with magical reinforcements. It breaks the immersion. Ill see you all when (if) they get rid of the next patch. 

 

"Farewell and adieu you fair Spanish ladies. Farewell and adieu you ladies of Spain…"

 

[Prater]

4 hours ago, Pagan Pete said:

This patch will be as disastrous as the Trump presidency.

The reintroduction of reinforcements and elimination of free ports will kill off Historical Brand Pyracy! Which is the only kind they Game Labs has ever said the want to encourage.

 (Reinforcements: ships summed by high tech radio gear, which then use matter-antimatter engines to space fold into your vicinity instantly. Without regards to the laws of General Relativity Newtonian Physics.)

I WILL NOT play in a game with magical reinforcements. It breaks the immersion. Ill see you all when (if) they get rid of the next patch. 

 

"Farewell and adieu you fair Spanish ladies. Farewell and adieu you ladies of Spain…"

 

Reinforcements aren't everywhere but in certain places to protect new players.  I agree that allowing players up to equal br to join would be better.  (i.e not ai)

Edited August 6, 2017 by Prater

[hoarmurath]

I have a couple suggestions

 

• if war companies is a collection of clans, make it so that even if a whole war company can participate in port battle, only one clan become owner of port, thus making it the port manager in name of its war company. So if a war company disband, the problem of who own the port don't have to be solved, it stay in hands of owning clan until attacked and taken by another war company.
• You should remove pirates from the nations mechanics. Pirate don't have to be playable on a long term basis. It should be the faction for people who break all rules, until they accept a pardon and come back into their nation, or die (yes, that mean leaving the game). life for pirates should be made as hard as possible (they should feel as "Hostis humani"), with ROE allowing the attack of any pirate, interdiction to enter non pirate ports, etc, etc...

[Sir Texas Sir]

1 hour ago, hoarmurath said:

I have a couple suggestions

 

• if war companies is a collection of clans, make it so that even if a whole war company can participate in port battle, only one clan become owner of port, thus making it the port manager in name of its war company. So if a war company disband, the problem of who own the port don't have to be solved, it stay in hands of owning clan until attacked and taken by another war company.
• You should remove pirates from the nations mechanics. Pirate don't have to be playable on a long term basis. It should be the faction for people who break all rules, until they accept a pardon and come back into their nation, or die (yes, that mean leaving the game). life for pirates should be made as hard as possible (they should feel as "Hostis humani"), with ROE allowing the attack of any pirate, interdiction to enter non pirate ports, etc, etc...

If a War Company Disbands than the port needs to go back to being neutral.

Fat chance until they come out with some mechanics we are still a nation.  Believe me we want pirate mechanics but it's not on the top of list for them to do.  They will get all the national stuff taken care of before they work on pirates if they ever do.  So until than you have to deal with the fact that yes we are another nation.  When the time pirates do get there own mechanics I"m pretty sure that will be a whole patch in it's self.

[Archaos]

On 8/2/2017 at 2:57 PM, admin said:

Captains joining war companies will have to serve a minimum time period and will not be able to exit the company for certain time

• After exit they won't be able to rejoin a company for a certain time (to avoid jumping back and forth between war companies).

I really feel that these rules need to remain in the proposal as otherwise all you will get is a mass influx of people into one War Company just before a port battle, and once done they will promptly leave.

[Anolytic]

7 minutes ago, Archaos said:

I really feel that these rules need to remain in the proposal as otherwise all you will get is a mass influx of people into one War Company just before a port battle, and once done they will promptly leave.

people should not be able to join war companies as individuals. Clans should join a war company as an entity by clan-leader action. And the war company accepts or denies entry. And yes, there should be a limitation on jumping in and out of war companies continuously. It should be a committment, not something entered into lightly.

[Hawkwood]

I didn`t quite understand 2 things...

1. Will the map reset BEFORE this new patch goes live too?

2. If so, will we lose assets, which are now in friendly ports, but might be in enemy ports/neutral AFTER RESET?

Thank you.

[Archaos]

1 minute ago, Cortez said:

I didn`t quite understand 2 things...

1. Will the map reset BEFORE this new patch goes live too?

2. If so, will we lose assets, which are now in friendly ports, but might be in enemy ports/neutral AFTER RESET?

Thank you.

The map will reset when this goes live.

You will not lose assets, they will either be transferred or you will get them as redeemable's, it has not been decided yet how it will happen. 

[Sir Texas Sir]

1 hour ago, Archaos said:

The map will reset when this goes live.

You will not lose assets, they will either be transferred or you will get them as redeemable's, it has not been decided yet how it will happen. 

I think they should do it like they did the region patch.  Give every one credits and supply back for the buildings (so every thing it takes to level your shipyards and workhouse) and than just move or redeem the rest.   A lot of folks will be moving to new locations and what not depending on how the new map will be set up.  Maybe give out another forge papers so folks can change nations too.

Speaking of that wish they give some credit for the papers we have.. I prob will never us mine....lol

Edited August 6, 2017 by Sir Texas Sir

[Archaos]

10 minutes ago, Anolytic said:

people should not be able to join war companies as individuals. Clans should join a war company as an entity by clan-leader action. And the war company accepts or denies entry. And yes, there should be a limitation on jumping in and out of war companies continuously. It should be a committment, not something entered into lightly.

Personally I dislike the idea of multiple clans in one War Company as I think it can lead to too many differences. But if people are willing to risk that then fair enough, I would hopefully join a War Company that was just a single clan.

[Archaos]

On 8/2/2017 at 2:57 PM, admin said:

Regions

• Regions will split into individual ports for conquest (tentative)
• All ports will be split into captureable (all large islands in the center of the map and island chains) and non captureable - coasts
• All capture able ports will change status to neutral after reset
  • History fans can relax because in 2-3 weeks port captures will shape the nationalities of ports themselves. New players will come to a live fluid map, which will have stability along the coast and constant instability in the center.
• Rare resources will move closer to the center of the map.. the closer to center the more potential profit would be on trading
• Some resources required to ship of the line construction might also move to center
• Map will be reset

I'm not sure I like the plan for the new conquest regions I would prefer something more like below that I posted in another thread.

I think the nation capital regions should be non-PvP zones to allow new players the safety to learn the game, missions in these areas only give xp and gold for the first few ranks after which you can still do missions up to any rank but get no XP, gold or loot, it would be purely for training purposes. e.g. someone sailing a first rate for the first time dosent want to risk losing it in PvP so they can train in missions in safe area. The importance of National capitals to trade and resources would need to be reduced.

All other ports and regions should be capturable. Ports should have different levels that have different BR requirements to attack so small War Clans can have chance to get some smaller unimportant ports. There should be a bonus if a single War Clan owns all ports in a region, maybe something like increased production rates or less port upkeep costs. Only players from the War Clans involved in the port battle can screen and participate in the port battle.

[Captain Lust]

@admin @InkWill there be special / custom flags ( preferably historical accurate ) for the war companies that the ports held by it will show? Could be submitted by the community and approved by the devs to reduce work for them...

The later coat of arms of the East India Company as an example.

Edited August 6, 2017 by Captain Lust

[Skully]

2 hours ago, Anolytic said:

people should not be able to join war companies as individuals. Clans should join a war company as an entity by clan-leader action. And the war company accepts or denies entry. And yes, there should be a limitation on jumping in and out of war companies continuously. It should be a committment, not something entered into lightly.

You only need 1 timer though. You don't want a Clan to be without Charter.

So once a Clan joins or creates a Charter it starts a 1 week countdown for that Clan.

[Captain Lust]

On 4.8.2017 at 3:32 PM, Ink said:

Captains, regarding Nassau pirate capital shallow water issue - this is just one of the idea for consideration and not 100% yet.

Why not give them Kidd's Island anyways? Thought you wanted the center to be conquest? Also making Nassau the pirate capital takes away a great shallow conquest combat zone and we need more of those not less... Since Captain Kidd was a pirate / privateer and the island in game named after him seems like a homage to Treasure Island it should always be in pirate hands anyways... anything else just seems wrong. All nations should have only 3-5 uncapturable ports maximum with greenzone around them anyways.

Edited August 6, 2017 by Captain Lust

[Archaos]

On the subject of tax and upkeep of ports maybe they could introduce a system where the port generates income through taxes for the owner but also requires upkeep, but the upkeep is in the form of certain supplies to the port. So many supplies per week would be required to support the port depending on the size of the port. e.g. Port A requires 100,000 grain, 10,000 stone, 200 gold coins, 300 silver coins 5,000 Rum (just figures from top of my head, would need to be worked out properly) etc per week. 

These figures are posted for each town at the start of the week with a running total through the week. The owning clan could purchase these items elsewhere and transport them themselves or they could post supply orders to be filled by other players. If they set the order too low them people will not be bothered to fill them. If at the end of the week the supply is not completed then there is a penalty for the port e.g. part of garrison deserts due to not being fed or paid so one fort becomes unmanned, or production drops.

This would generate trade runs between ports and more targets in OW.

[Sir Texas Sir]

1 hour ago, Captain Lust said:

@admin @InkWill there be special / custom flags ( preferably historical accurate ) for the war companies that the ports held by it will show? Could be submitted by the community and approved by the devs to reduce work for them...

The later coat of arms of the East India Company as an example.

Hopefully we can get this for clans when Unity 5 updates done.  War Company's would be nice to have a flag for them to that all can carry with the clan flags on top mast.

[Sir Texas Sir]

34 minutes ago, Captain Lust said:

Why not give them Kidd's Island anyways? Thought you wanted the center to be conquest? Also making Nassau the pirate capital takes away a great shallow conquest combat zone and we need more of those not less... Since Captain Kidd was a pirate / privateer and the island in game named after him seems like a homage to Treasure Island it should always be in pirate hands anyways... anything else just seems wrong. All nations should have only 3-5 uncapturable ports maximum with greenzone around them anyways.

They can do this and than have Nassau the secondary captured-able capital like they have mention to the other nats.  Though be honest having the pirates in the middle like that and Mort has all ways meant pirates where in the middle of a hot zone.  

[Anolytic]

16 hours ago, Archaos said:

I do not like the idea of War Companies not being nation specific, it totally removes the need to have nations, you may as well start the game with no nations and everyone just joins a clan.

At this point we have nations mostly for sentimental reasons anyway. We could just have a red team, a blue team and a black team and lots of things would be a lot simpler, not least balancing. But the devs like flags and history and such things, and I and many players are totally with them on that. The role-play opportunities and history immersion allowed by having real nations in-game are something which importance for many players shouldn't be underestimated. But for RvR we need balancing, and nations simply cannot be balanced. So make War company affiliation totally detached from nations, only with the exception that the War company has the patronage of the King of the nation where the charter was first registered.

If Nations don't interact directly with RvR, and RvR development don't affect Nations, and Nationality instead interact only with what happens in OW and with economy, then nations can be balanced even if Britain has 50 times the players of Danmark or Sweden, because Danish or Swedish national territories would only be a thirtieth or so of the national territories of Britain. And would thus only need a fraction of the population to make the economy work evenly.

[Archaos]

1 hour ago, Anolytic said:

At this point we have nations mostly for sentimental reasons anyway. We could just have a red team, a blue team and a black team and lots of things would be a lot simpler, not least balancing. But the devs like flags and history and such things, and I and many players are totally with them on that. The role-play opportunities and history immersion allowed by having real nations in-game are something which importance for many players shouldn't be underestimated. But for RvR we need balancing, and nations simply cannot be balanced. So make War company affiliation totally detached from nations, only with the exception that the War company has the patronage of the King of the nation where the charter was first registered.

If Nations don't interact directly with RvR, and RvR development don't affect Nations, and Nationality instead interact only with what happens in OW and with economy, then nations can be balanced even if Britain has 50 times the players of Danmark or Sweden, because Danish or Swedish national territories would only be a thirtieth or so of the national territories of Britain. And would thus only need a fraction of the population to make the economy work evenly.

I see your point and maybe I am still missing something, but if you have mixed nationality War Corporations then whose flag flies over the port and who can access the port from outside the War Corporation?

I sort of view it the way the Devs originally announced that nations will give charters to clans to go capture and run ports. To put that into role play "The European nations embroiled in war in Europe can no longer support the colonies, and thus grant charters to private enterprises to expand in the name of the Crown,/Emperor/Majesty etc." It gives us an alternative history timeline and still keeps nations involved as theoretically all War Clan ports come under the jurisdiction of the nation the War Company belongs to. This may go some way to appeasing the history buffs.

[Skully]

For the history buffs:

"West Indies or West India was the namesake of several companies of the 17th and 18th centuries, including the Danish West India Company, the Dutch West India Company, the French West India Company, and the Swedish West India Company."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Indies

Although West Indian companies were very much on the decline in late 17th and early 18th century. I think all of them were more targeting trade as opposed to conquest as well.

From a gameplay perspective I think it makes sense to introduce Charters and if someone was to play it out more historically go for the "British Royal Navy" (Chartered company) and see if you can make it work. 

Edited August 6, 2017 by Skully