Grind discussion

[Skully]

3 hours ago, Slamz said:

No excuse except an excess of risk-aversion.

Why risk a ship for the effort poured in?

There is no incentive to do so. And don't give me PvP rewards in terms of gold or XP.

There will be no fighting on your terms, there will only be fighting on agreeable terms. You may not like to hear it, but that is the nature of all players.

I'm still curious how long it will take for this to literally sink in.

[Captain Lust]

5 hours ago, Slamz said:

Those are so very optional though.

My PvP ships have had the admiralty speed figure head, the Northern Carpenters (which I make myself and are cheap -- the components are common) and the 3rd mod is usually just whatever I have laying around. Accuracy or reload is nice.

Since the Great Speed Nerf, I find it very questionable to burn up another slot on an additional 1-2% speed. You're talking about a difference that you can make up with a couple of rounds of your chasers firing chain shot.

So this is another "the grind is what you make of it". Yeah sure you CAN grind out tenfold the ship value in mods but it is far from mandatory and is unlikely to make a difference. It's a damn close fight where you could have swung it the other way if only you'd had [insert one or two mods here]. That pretty much never happens.

Some upgrades are borderline OP so agree to disagree. I know you don't need max stats to have and enjoy pvp but still... why should some upgrades be way more expensive than a good ship and their availability locked behind a RNG / PvE Grindwall? Customizing your upgrades is besides the wood type the only mechanic that allows you to customize your ship to make things a little less dull and limiting access to upgrades like this is imo just pure cancer...

[Malachy]

5 hours ago, Slamz said:

Those are so very optional though.

My PvP ships have had the admiralty speed figure head, the Northern Carpenters (which I make myself and are cheap -- the components are common) and the 3rd mod is usually just whatever I have laying around. Accuracy or reload is nice.

Since the Great Speed Nerf, I find it very questionable to burn up another slot on an additional 1-2% speed. You're talking about a difference that you can make up with a couple of rounds of your chasers firing chain shot.

So this is another "the grind is what you make of it". Yeah sure you CAN grind out tenfold the ship value in mods but it is far from mandatory and is unlikely to make a difference. It's a damn close fight where you could have swung it the other way if only you'd had [insert one or two mods here]. That pretty much never happens.

Well, real time is. Labor hours are not, unless you're pumping out 1st rates. For 5th rates, you cannot possibly lose ships fast enough to account for all the labor hours you generate.

The real limiting factor in ship making is just the hauling runs.

In a healthier economy, gold still talks though. Even within France on PvP-Global I've had orders filled for coal, gold ore, teak logs, fir logs, oak logs, etc. I just put up buy orders for what I felt was a reasonably attractive price (higher than any NPC will pay anywhere) and generally someone fills it. I could have saved money and gone to pick up the stuff myself but when I'm sitting on a few million gold, I'm happy to pay someone else to do it if there's a taker.

Point being, I still don't buy this argument that people don't PvP because they can't afford to -- not after a month of gameplay.

Maybe if you're a new player on a team that's hopelessly camped and one-ported -- but, for example, there is no excuse for any British or Pirate player on PvP-Global to say they aren't ready for PvP if they're been here for a month. They're ready. They're just dragging their feet waiting for some pie in the sky ideal that's really just become an excuse to not take a risk.

If someone joined France-Global within the last week then okay, I can get that they are not ready and are have a real hard time getting ready. There is definitely a new player problem that can be addressed here.

But veterans? No excuse except an excess of risk-aversion.

You haven't crafted lately or.... ever? You generate about 1400 labor hours in a 24 hour period. The crappy little 5th rates take 7 to 900 hours. The bigger ones well over 1000 just to click the ship. The materials take between half again as much to 1.5 x the hours as the click cost. So, you are looking at somewhere between 1.5 to 3 days to build a 5th rate. You can lose one in as few as 20 minutes in a gank or a bad fight. Tell me again that you can't lose them faster than you can build em, that's downright amusing.

[Tenet]

55 minutes ago, Malachy said:

You haven't crafted lately or.... ever? You generate about 1400  900 labor hours in a 24 hour period. The crappy little 5th rates take 7 to 900 hours. The bigger ones well over 1000 just to click the ship. The materials take between half again as much to 1.5 x the hours as the click cost. So, you are looking at somewhere between 1.5 to 3 days to build a 5th rate. You can lose one in as few as 20 minutes in a gank or a bad fight. Tell me again that you can't lose them faster than you can build em, that's downright amusing.

Fixed that for you. 900 LH/Day without perks wasted.

[Malachy]

3 minutes ago, Tenet said:

Fixed that for you. 900 LH/Day without perks wasted.

Hmm I always have about 1400 every day, no perks wasted. Are you level 50? 

[Tenet]

1 minute ago, Malachy said:

Hmm I always have about 1400 every day, no perks wasted. Are you level 50? 

No, level does not affect LH/Hour. Level only affects Maximum LH stored. Pretty sure I can store above 1400 now, but production is not that high.  The only way to increase it is by taking a special perk, not an option for PvPers. 

[Malachy]

2 hours ago, Tenet said:

No, level does not affect LH/Hour. Level only affects Maximum LH stored. Pretty sure I can store above 1400 now, but production is not that high.  The only way to increase it is by taking a special perk, not an option for PvPers. 

Hmm I'll have to watch it, but I used all but 640 labor yesterday, logged in and had 2000 again, 24 hours later. Regardless though, my point was that it takes 2-3 days of labor to craft a 5th rate... no way you can craft em faster than you can lose them. 

[Slamz]

3 hours ago, Malachy said:

Hmm I'll have to watch it, but I used all but 640 labor yesterday, logged in and had 2000 again, 24 hours later. Regardless though, my point was that it takes 2-3 days of labor to craft a 5th rate... no way you can craft em faster than you can lose them. 

Is anyone losing ships faster than they can come up with the labor hours to replace them?

Or is this a theory-crafted problem which technically could exist but which does not actually exist.

In our experience as a clan, the bottle-neck is the physical act of hauling stuff. Labor hours and money have not been a bottleneck for what we do, which is probably about a 30/60/10 split of 5th rate, 4th rate and 3rd rate effort.

I'm actually sitting on a pile of labor contracts "for emergencies", which never happen.

Edited August 12, 2017 by Slamz

[Skully]

1 hour ago, Slamz said:

Is anyone losing ships faster than they can come up with the labor hours to replace them?

Or is this a theory-crafted problem which technically could exist but which does not actually exist.

It is a proven theory at this point. Whether it is an actuality doesn't matter then anymore. Why make it an actuality?

It's like chess, you don't step onto the path to defeat.

[John Page]

•  Repairs (Hull, Rig, Rum) are somewhat expensive, relative to a new player. This is not so much of a problem when you have a lot of money and are making a lot of money later on, but for a player just starting out who has gotten the hang of the basic cutter after 10 or so fights and wants a bit bigger fifth rate, it is prohibitive. Especially for someone who plays casually, or does not have a lot of time to devote. I found the majority of my time just starting out to be eaten up trying to make money. Not a bad thing, I'm just stuck with the cutter longer, which probably frustrates some players. I like the idea of consumable repairs, but I also liked the perk that was taken away that gave one free repair during combat.

 

• Ship XP. I think several have already mentioned this. For some reason, I seem to be stuck at 888/900 xp on my cutter with one slot left to unlock. Any missions or PvE I do does not count anymore, I do not know if that is deliberate or not, but it is frustrating, and PvP would almost certainly be an extreme difficulty to gain xp on, unless I had a friend helping, but who wants to join someone for serious PvP in a cutter? I think one way to help satisfy the current 'too much xp requirement' is to have all ships of the same rate unlock the others. E.g. a fifth rate Surprise unlocks the same slot on a fifth rate Renomee. Just my two cents on this topic.

 

•  Travel times. Again, I think this was mentioned already. I am all for role playing and being as close to realistic as possible, but in my opinion going from Kingston / Port Royal to Belize should not have to take 2 hours of play time. I think an excellent way to alleviate this problem was mentioned by Daguse above: http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/22013-grind-discussion/?page=2&tab=comments#comment-449704

Later on in discussion:

On 7/31/2017 at 11:45 PM, Daguse said:

with this in mind, they could map "channels" with increased speed in all directions. like I said, it would be pseudo realistic and allow for more emergent game play. At some point, you got to balance realism and fun. I belive that time has come for OW traval. 

 

On 8/1/2017 at 10:19 AM, Daguse said:

First I agree, if it's not balanced we could end up with major issues with to small of a map or ganking issues. I that is why I suggested "channels" like high ways. If you are attacked in one, yes there could be a lot of back and forth, the invisible has helped with this somewhat. However if you are attacked out side of a channel, players coming to help would still have to sail at normal OW for part of the trip and so the battle will close. I'm not saying you should be able to cross the map in 15 minutes, just that it shouldn't take hours.

For those arguing that this will allow a 'gank fest' or PvP hot zone, I argue that people who devote more time are probably going to be there ganking you anyway. This would enable casual players to participate more in RvR and PvP events.

All in all though, I think development is progressing, albeit slowly, in a good direction. Developers, thank you for building this game and continuing to improve it!

Sincerely,

 

Edited August 13, 2017 by John Page

[Slamz]

On 8/11/2017 at 6:37 PM, Skully said:

Why risk a ship for the effort poured in?

This is basically asking "why play the game".

Because it's fun?

And I think the risk of loss is a big part of the fun. Naval Action Arena has almost no appeal to me because meaningless pewpew fights with nothing on the line seems like something that will maybe be fun for about a week. I give that game about 1 month before it loses 90% of its players -- it'll be much faster than NA itself tailed off.

(Same reason I only ever played Minecraft on survival mode. The chance of dying and losing a lot of stuff was the only thing that kept that game interesting at all.)

21 hours ago, Skully said:

It is a proven theory at this point. Whether it is an actuality doesn't matter then anymore. Why make it an actuality?

It's like chess, you don't step onto the path to defeat.

It's more like you have developed a theory that chess can be won in 2 moves and therefore it is a waste of time to play chess. Really you have identified an extreme edge case that pretty much nobody ever encounters in normal play. Hardly seems worth worrying about. Do most people normally lose in two moves? Do most people normally find they can't afford a Surprise? Then it's not a very useful problem to bring up.

Edited August 13, 2017 by Slamz

[Slamz]

On 8/11/2017 at 6:54 AM, Malachy said:

In groups for that one, Connie and trinc usually. Not everyone enjoys sailing paper gank ships

If all ships were free (or cheap enough to be eternally affordable) then nobody would ever sail a Surprise or a Cerb.

If you want the big stuff, you must take a bigger risk.

But big ships aren't needed for PvP.

I'm sure there are EVE players who really only enjoy Titans but we can't just give everyone Titans for free to make them happy or the rest of the content becomes meaningless.

[Skully]

26 minutes ago, Slamz said:

Hardly seems worth worrying about. Do most people normally lose in two moves? Do most people normally find they can't afford a Surprise? Then it's not a very useful problem to bring up.

Have these points not be proven on Global?

• Horde Fleet to Gulf & Dread Fleet to Georgia / Savannah, poof goes US
• Horde Fleet + Mercantile Fleet to Central Antilles & Dread Fleet to Cornwall / Savanna la Mar, poof goes GB and FR

There is a funny pivotal point when GB Fleet went to Port-au-Prince. Maybe if somebody would look at the screenshots, then see what really happened. Or talk to Bob he surely can remember it.

As for the second point, Spanish CCE never got beyond the point of affording some ships before being overrun by the Horde. And right now you should talk to Derj and ask him why he gave chase in a Snow to my Traders Brig, or Masterviolin, if he is still around. http://forum.game-labs.net/topic/21832-the-frustrations-of-a-future-college-student/

Do most casual players consider the game lost at that point? Apparently, yes.

[Malachy]

7 hours ago, Slamz said:

If all ships were free (or cheap enough to be eternally affordable) then nobody would ever sail a Surprise or a Cerb.

If you want the big stuff, you must take a bigger risk.

But big ships aren't needed for PvP.

I'm sure there are EVE players who really only enjoy Titans but we can't just give everyone Titans for free to make them happy or the rest of the content becomes meaningless.

The only reason to sail a Cerberus is to level up. It's one of those worthless ships for pvp. A surprise actually has end game potential due to its speed and maneuverability. It has virtually no firepower, or defenses, which is why bigger ships exist and are very necessary to pvp.

No one has said all ships should be inexpensive etc, I just said that there is no way to replace 5th rates as fast as it's possible to lose them, even a surprise costs about 24 real hours to build. That means 1 pvp loss and you can realistically be down for a minimum of 24 hours. If you sail a real ship, not a gank corvette, you could realistically be down for 32 to 74 hours. 

Your argument is completely flawed, as usual.

Edited August 13, 2017 by Malachy

[Hethwill]

Sorry, but from the Lynx up to the Cerberus, many players have proven they can bring down way bigger prey, one on one. It all starts with a good tag and a false sense of superiority from the opponent.

[Malachy]

8 minutes ago, The Red Duke said:

Sorry, but from the Lynx up to the Cerberus, many players have proven they can bring down way bigger prey, one on one. It all starts with a good tag and a false sense of superiority from the opponent.

I have never and will never lose a fight to a Cerberus. Hell, I've never lost a 1 on 1 with a renomee. You might get lucky and gank some poor noob with one of those pieces of junk, but an experienced player will win every time against one. A lot of new players like to sail the biggest ship they can crew (or not even crew) while having zero ability to utilize said ship. 

Edited August 13, 2017 by Malachy

[Hethwill]

Renomee will lose to a Cerberus more than it wins, but al'right, glad you master the ship you like. Let others enjoy theirs.

Let's keep discussing grinding.

 

[Malachy]

2 minutes ago, The Red Duke said:

Renomee will lose to a Cerberus more than it wins, but al'right, glad you master the ship you like. Let others enjoy theirs.

Let's keep discussing grinding.

 

I don't use a renomee either, I consider them in the same class as the Cerberus, except the renomee has speed going for it. Smallest ship I sail is a regular frigate and lately usually a trincomalee. But yeah we've gotten way off topic. 

[Slamz]

10 hours ago, Skully said:

Have these points not be proven on Global?

• Horde Fleet to Gulf & Dread Fleet to Georgia / Savannah, poof goes US
• Horde Fleet + Mercantile Fleet to Central Antilles & Dread Fleet to Cornwall / Savanna la Mar, poof goes GB and FR

 

Yeah but I think we're talking about different problems now.

Imaginary problem: people can't afford to PvP.

Real problem: people don't want to PvP with messed up mechanics like "hide in battle" and "using alt-spies on the outside so you can warp speed onto targets".

This is why people also quit in droves back when we had 5 durability and we all literally had 30+ dura of PvP ship sitting in our docks. People still quit because it's just not fun to get ganked through bad mechanics even if the ships are basically free. People trying to turn this into a crafting/economic discussion are off the mark.

4 hours ago, Malachy said:

The only reason to sail a Cerberus is to level up

It's literally a great PvP ship. It has a good point-of-sail lineup, good maneuverability and if you're in a group some of you can load out with 32-pound carros. I have a screenshot where 2 of us killed a Heavy Rattler and a Santissima using 2 Cerbs. Santi was run by the #1 lineship clan in the server too so this was no noob gank. The Heavy Rattler actually went down after 1 broadside of point blank carros put leaks in him and he sank. Not bad for a cheap ship! We use it in "low risk" groups a lot and have gotten a lot of kills. I think I have 4 slots on it now and I have done nothing with it except PvP.

Point being that cheap, quality PvP has always been available.

People saying "such-and-such is a terrible PvP ship" is the literal problem -- nothing wrong with the ships, but people have this idea in their head that if they can't sail the #1 top rated PvP ship then they don't wanna go. That's almost the opposite of how actual PvPers look at it -- we want the best "bang for the buck" and that's Surprise/Cerb.

We only sail 4th rates or better when we're feeling fancy and cocky (and generally have a good, stable, experienced group).

Edited August 13, 2017 by Slamz

[Skully]

3 minutes ago, Slamz said:

People still quit because it's just not fun to get ganked through bad mechanics even if the ships are basically free.

That discussion was never finished. 

 

[AglyBeard]

Only allow trade contracts between players remove player ability to purchase goods from  nps stores on contract.

 Create an  ability for user to salvige sunken ship with all its abilities and upgrades for half price of the ship in crafted materials and labor cost.  Timegate it if you must. Require use of  refitting kits from time to time to bring ship to its original state  made of same mats and required same crafting level as original ship.

[fox2run]

On 11/8/2017 at 1:04 PM, The Red Duke said:

All ships that exist in NA are here due to a lot of reasons. Different players like different ships for many reasons other than "gank". For some is massive broadside powercreep, for others is a suitable tool for the task. Others like them for the looks, others play them to keep a sensible "historical feeling" to their character.

Comparing ship to ship will simply bring us to the "how much did it cost, during the age of sail, to build a schooner versus a super frigate". And we know the answer to that.

I think that a game should make all assets aviable to all players. SOLs of course are harder to build but shouldnt be impossible to use for the average gamer. Nor the other ships. As in real life grind economy would make frigates and 3rd rates the most common ships in OW. Common does not mean weeks of grinding, though. It means something relatively easy to get and...loose without being set back by weeks. Multiduras actually solved some of this.