Grind discussion

[shaeberle84]

3 hours ago, admin said:

Lets discuss grind. 

A lot of players are saying that the grind is unbearable. Let's talk what is grind in Naval Action - for YOU and how we can address it?

 

PVP still not valuable enough. Especially long fights where most dmg it done to sails or crew - not exp or gold at all. Very bad incentives. Rewards should be much higher.

Also, if someone captures a ship in PVP, others, who participated in the fight, also earn nohting. Very bad.

 

PVE Missions are okay rewarding in terms of gold and exp and repairs. However, cannon loot is a joke. Ship knowledge could be change to make first three slots easier.

 

Grinding through NPC trader capturing is a joke. Ships are worth less and less since caputring is allowed. Loot is just a joke. 50 fish meat on an LGV. rofl.

 

There is not much else to 'grind' ... it is kind of boring only to be able to chose between those.

 

Furthermore, the grind for gold cannot be really considered right now since with the current NPC pricing system, making money is again way too easy:

Just wait until a port consumes its iron ingots, price rises to 200g+ for something you can make thousands of for 100g material costs.

 

Until that economy is not fixed, we cannot really assess the grind for gold via PVP and PVE missions.

 

 

[Slamz]

1) Mission grind.

I wonder....
What if "missions" was an overlay that you can turn on and off. Rather than picking up a mission and sailing to it, they are all over the map (similar to epics), concentrated near coastlines, and you just have to turn them on/off to see/hide them. Once someone does a mission it vanishes for 30 minutes after exit, to encourage people to spread out a bit. Mission grinders would sail around the coastlines doing these missions rather than sailing back and forth to some port. I would consider adding a 30 second timer (similar to how Tow To Port works) when entering a mission, so that they can't be used as easy escape routes. (Recently entered missions could also be displayed even if you have "show missions" turned off.)

Basically I don't think the missions themselves are something people complain about, but rather, it's the way you have to get them that people don't like.

2) Book grind.

I wonder if it would be more interesting to turn this in a WOW-style "talent tree". You don't have to find the books. But you can't have them all at the same time. You have to specialize your character and can purchase a respec when desired. This would take some mental effort to create the tree(s) and balance them to keep them interesting but it's a popular MMORPG concept that I think most gamers enjoy.

3) Ship slot grind.

I think this is okay as-is but I wish PvP counted for more. You will basically never unlock 4th rate or higher slots through PvP. Maybe this is just intended to be a "PvE thing" and I've pretty much just accepted that's the case.

4) Contention grind.

I see three problems with the contention grind:

a. Missions are the superior way to grind if you want anything out of it. I think killing OW fleets should reward bonus XP and bonus money to make them more attractive than missions. Let missions be the safer and more consistent option while contention grinds are the real way most people earn XP and money. It's funny, but this really happens: people don't want to grind a port for contention because they "need money and XP". They go off to grind missions rather than help flip a port.

b. Contention grinds are very inconsistent from place to place. Worth thinking about. Flipping Basse-Terre is super fast and easy due to fleet concentration in the area while flipping San Juan is a huge pita. Is that what we want??

c. Repairs make this super expensive, especially when grinding an area that has no practical port you can go to for cheap repairs.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Slamz

[CatSwift]

IMO the only thing that needs to change is crafting XP.  For everything else the grind is less than MMOs i have played in the past. I have been playing solo France on Global since the wipe, never really ran out of money or ships. I have enough knowledge slots unlocked to be dangerous and don't feel pressured to unlock the others. Grinded some missions in the beginning, did a little trading.  Been a lot of fun!

[Baptiste Gallouédec]

As it's been said multiple times, it's the disparities between pve & pvp rewards that is the most frustrating. 

1 hour ago, shaeberle84 said:

PVP still not valuable enough. Especially long fights where most dmg it done to sails or crew - not exp or gold at all. Very bad incentives. Rewards should be much higher.

Also, if someone captures a ship in PVP, others, who participated in the fight, also earn nohting. Very bad.

 

 Knowledges slots xp requirements are a bit too high once you jump into frigates and larger, participation/damages in pvp should grant more knowledge xp, a lost but survived epic Port Battle grant zero xp while sinking 2 smaller bots in a mission give like 1000 in few minutes. But this is related to the pve/pvp rewards ratio.

 

The worst is probably hostility/ contention grind, i just hate it, it's bad and dull.

[Vllad]

I don't think the problem is how much xp it takes to level something up that is the problem, in-fact compared to other products it may not be long enough. The shorter you make it the the faster everyone will get bored of your product. The problem isn't how long it takes, the problem is there are only limited ways to get there.

People use the word grind because it is mundane, not because it is long but because it is the same repetitive process.

Your XP requirements would become less of a grind if you added variation to how one achieves that XP.

For Example: 

**Mission Strings (Multiple missions connected together, Quest Lines)

**Missions that require boarding or other mechanics other than just sinking ships

**Missions that require attacks on things other than ships (boarding or destroying a tower/buildings)

**Rescue and Escort missions

**Long Term Missions i.e., must generate X contention points, must score X pvp points, 50 pvp sinks, 100 pvp sinks, complete 5 epic missions (plus whatever else you can imagine) and make these long term missions ship (not class) specific giving ship XP bonsus

**Give "non-tradable" refit recipes rewards and XP that aren't drops but difficult mission specific to Neutral ports (Upper Antillies Hat Island Bovenwinds Quest Line) 

**Give ship (not class) specific rewards

**PVP Missions (sink X nations ships, sink X nations trader tonnage)

**Spy Missions (sneak into X port and do Y), must use ship specific requirements to bump up trader XP and refits specific for trade ships

**Delivery string missions (only done in specific ships)

 

I could think of about 20 more but ultimately entering an instance to kill a ship or two is not very creative. We need to give reasons to put people in the open sea and to give a variety of ways to earn ship and captain XP and along with fat loot. Fat loot and multiple ways to achieve ship specific XP will not reduce the grind but will certainly make it feel less like one. Reducing the grind altogether will leave no goals to achieve in NA and people will get bored and stop playing.

Edited July 31, 2017 by Vllad

[Iroquois Confederacy]

5 hours ago, z4ys said:

- Everything that can only be obtained through pve only is grind for me. And there are a lot of items out their that can only obtained through that.

[Reward PvP more it should always be more rewarding to pvp as to pve]

 

- That NA favors: more guns = more everything (loot, money, etc.) Is forcing player to go for the biggest ship as fast as possible which leads to grinding

[loot and money should depend of BR difference group and personal BR the higher the difference the more rewarding the loot]

A brig vs a surprise should have the same reward as trinc vs coni. (for example)

 

- The Perma mod system = while parts are monopolized by a few you have to kill AI for refits (fault in contract system)

[Ditch perma mods  make them knowledge/ dont allow contracts on certain goods]

 

- Pre last hotfix I could sell my captured player ships. Now they droped in value because they arent playermade anymore. Therefore I have to kill AI to get money again.

[make the difference between playermade and AI capture bigger]

From Mortal Mouth's to Angel's Ears.  This would be awesome.  Please seriously consider each of these changes.  No contracts on certain goods would be very helpful in particular.

[Prater]

Travel times do not need to change.  You can travel extremely far in the right conditions right now.  No one needs to sail all over the map, this is an issue with the player's thinking, not the game itself.  There is nothing forcing the player to travel all over.

However, the issue with KPR and mission spawn is an issue.  No other capital would have this issue.  I think mission spawn around KPR needs to be looked at for that fix, instead of tweaking OW speeds.

 

I think the problem with grind is the cost of items.  Our ships have 1 durability now.  If we lose the ship, we lose it, we don't have 4 more lives.  This means the time to get back into your ship is lengthened.  There is also the issue that ship lives were reduced from 5 to 1 but total cost of materials is down only about 1/2.  I think reducing the cost 1/2 again should fix it.  To replace a surprise is pretty significant.  If you put a half million worth or more of modules on it, to replace it takes an extreme amount of time.  If you look at all the recent complaints on Steam reviews, most seem to be about the grind, and I think this is what is meant, along with the amount of ship knowledge required.  I myself don't have any problems with the xp or ship knowledge grind, just that I don't think blueprints were adjusted enough when durability was reduced to 1.  P.s.  I think only 5-7 rate blueprints needs to be adjusted.  1-4 rates might be fine or needing only minor adjustments.

 

3 hours ago, Daguse said:

The only issue I have is with travel time. I get a few hours a day, 2-3 depending on how well the kids sleep.  So to be able to relocate to where the action is can sometimes take up the entirety of my play time. 

It would be nice to see trade winds and currents added, something to drastically shorten the travel time. Adding a speed buff similar to the invisibility buff, while inside these "Highways" would be a great solution. Players would have charted paths to move ships and trade around, and PVP would focus on these areas.To top it all off, while most of the current head in one direction, the trade winds head in the opposite. 

I want realistic winds (preferably off windy.com or the NOAA), but why do you need to travel the distances wherein trade winds would help out?  P.s.  Trade winds only help you in one direction.  Travelling back to your starting port will take a considerably longer time. 

Edited July 31, 2017 by Prater

[King of Crowns]

5 hours ago, admin said:

what it was like before? Missions positions and distances have not changed. OW speed increased by a lot as well. 

this is simply not true. I see pirates pulling 5th rate missions just barely outside of protected waters at morti. this must change.

[Hodo]

The grind isnt horrible on the lower end ships, 6th and 7th rates.  It gets bad on the bigger ships like a Leda starts at 2450xp for the first slot, but then goes to over 9000 for the second?!    

I understand you still have the XP from the previous level, but over 9000xp is a bit much seeing as you get around 200-500 for a 5th rate mission.   

My suggestion would be make it twice the previous level + previous level XP.   

So a Leda should be.

2450 -1st slot, 7350 - 2nd slot, 17150 - 3rd slot and so on.  

The grind is there, but not as bad.   

The other HUGE issue is the RNG drops of some very common mods from history.  Copper plating, and Lead sheeting should be craftable or at least Admiralty/Pirate store items.

[Lordicious]

I am glad you finally understand one of few problems that cause game failure. One of them is long grind and another one is time problem. Average player has 1.5 hours and it takes 1.5 hours to sail from 1 port to another or 1 fight takes 45 minutes. Get it? Anyway.

The Grind

-Repetitive missions with no safe zones. 

1. Introduce more content and make missions interesting.

2. Open world pvp is bad, really bad. Learn from Potbs red zones, but it's too late now at this stage. 

-Long sailing and 1 dura boats can and will kill your population (check your numbers). No matter if you get more players or not they will quit shortly after they die. Guaranteed.  

1. Increase OS sailing speed or introduce spawn points.

2. Bring back NPC capture up to 4th rate and protect new players. Give them 'Neutral' flag up to certain rank. 2 hour per day 'Neutral' Flag will do it. Want to recharge it? Use marks or other drops. 

-Too few NPCs on OS, too little gold and drops. Gun problem is real. 

1. Increase gold drops. 

2. Make guns available everywhere, make them scavenge active. 

3. Add more NPC targets

-Resource hauling takes forever. 

1. Once again time issue. 

2. Open world pvp issue. 

3. 1 dura boats issue

4. No one will start over if they die. They will quit. Latest new player reviews prove this problem.

Also, those 300 pvpers who defend this forum from any PvE content suggestions is all you got now. I think you should ask them how to fix this because I believe it's their fault this game lost it's popularity. Reading through old people posts I can't believe how much good content is lost. 

This is a tough one to fix at this stage, so I don't even know what to tell you. Good luck.

P.S. best option is to go with potbs red zones and remove open world pvp, increase travel time and introduce more rewards. This could bring people back, but anything else you change won't do much of a difference at this point. Sorry. 

 

Edited July 31, 2017 by Lordicious

[Kanay]

1 hour ago, Hodo said:

The grind isnt horrible on the lower end ships, 6th and 7th rates.  It gets bad on the bigger ships like a Leda starts at 2450xp for the first slot, but then goes to over 9000 for the second?!

I understand you still have the XP from the previous level, but over 9000xp is a bit much seeing as you get around 200-500 for a 5th rate mission.

My suggestion would be make it twice the previous level + previous level XP.

So a Leda should be.

2450 -1st slot, 7350 - 2nd slot, 17150 - 3rd slot and so on.

The grind is there, but not as bad.

The other HUGE issue is the RNG drops of some very common mods from history.  Copper plating, and Lead sheeting should be craftable or at least Admiralty/Pirate store items.

The average Xp by mission for M&C is around 330xp , calculated while doing the grind of the last slot for the Essex needing 10k xp, some missions you get 391xp, some others only 251xp, a frigate brings 366xp for example ... the Bonus done for completing the mission are not added to the knowledge slots too.

In the end you have a same type of mission for a Cerberus or a indefatigable, bringing the same rewards but one needs a lot more XP than the other and will make it painful.

Then comes the irrationals in the Battle Rates and Xp needed for slots between the ships, like i was saying in another thread :

Essex vs Pirate Frigate :

225 BR vs 180

1st slot 2250xp for the Essex, 1500xp for the Pirate frigate

2nd slot 9050xp for the Essex, 6050xp for the  Pirate frigate

3rd slot 18100xp for the Essex, 12150xp for the  Pirate frigate

4th slot 29450xp for the Essex, 19750xp for the  Pirate frigate

5th slot 45300xp for the Essex, 30350xp for the  Pirate frigate

Both ships face the same Ai in missions, both earn the same XP on average, but here you have a ship that is way better in many aspect compared to the other, pirate frigate is faster than the essex, have the same thickness when using same build for woods/ trim, frigate have a bit more HP , have a way better turn rate ( + Essex have a serious problem since abusively nerfed when turning against the wind to make it even worse ), essex have 315 crew, the frigate 300, but sails need 130 crew on the essex vs 100 only on the pirate frigate ( while having very similar sails and exact same HP ) , the Essex have only one gun per side more than the frigate but have no chasers in counterpart for this.

In the end for pve it's very similar ships when it comes to efficiency and time spend to do the missions, pirate frigate is way more enjoyable and able to deal with 2 AI's way better and faster than the essex due to her higher turn rate and not having issues at all to turn against the wind and keep a very nice speed, Essex speed drop to almost to a full stop so you have to bypass this issue, but one needs 14950 more XP than the other ?? Why ? It really feels like an unwanted grind here.

An indefatigable can manage to do a fleet mission alone by itself, you need repairs and lot of rum but you can do it and ease the grind, for others it ain't really possible , and since we cannot do like before pick a fleet mission of the level under our ship and face all ships alone in our ship it's simply painful and feels often unfair comparing those ships.

As the RNG drops were mentioned i would like to add that for me loosing a ship isn't a big deal , it can be replaced more or less quickly, getting rarer woods is an issue but not that bad most of the times, need cash for this, but the upgrades applied on a ship and lost cannot be replaced most of the times, this is one of the biggest problems of this game, RNG is bad, always was always will be, i had up to 2 indiamans to store only the upgrades i dropped, both full mostly of upgrades like pumps, elevating screws, false keel, and so on, things that have not much use, but never dropped a single copper plating or a Cartahena refit yet ...

Today with global server down i went to EU erver to pass the time, this is the prices running there for some upgrades :

And same kind of stuff for offers ...  We are back to gold marines times selling for millions ... This is bad, simple as this, when you have permanent upgrades ( and to a less extend books ) costing more than top ships it should be enough to know that this only hurts the game, you need to grind for cash , for books, upgrades and cross fingers to get lucky enough ...  How does that favor the game ? Some players will never risk some of the ships they have not for the ship itself but for the upgrades put on it that will take a while to get back, this is aggravated since now all ships are one dura, at least before you could invest on such stuff or be lucky to drop one and profit of it a bit if you was loosing your ship, now upgrades have more value than the ship and can be lost easily, all stuff should be craftable in game or better remove all perma upgrades to favor players engagements.

Lastly the victory marks and some BP's or permits ... a Third rate or Bucentaure or Aga bp needs 50 combat marks, a Niagara Bp needs one victory mark, 175 combat marks , same as a Pavel or Bellona ?

A third rate needs 125 combat marks for a permit, but for a niagara you need again 1victory mark or 175 combat marks for this time 3 permits, why not directly put the permits for 1/3 of the price in combat marks ? an Endymion needs 50 combat marks in comparison, an Aga needs 75... Especially for such low level ship, a ship many starting players could enjoy at them levels, i still remember the first mission i done in a Niagara, was a blast to sail this ship, why put this behind such wall for many players that could enjoy the game sailing such ship ?

There is plenty of little things like this in game that feel like grind, unwanted and unnecessary grind that often makes no logic or sense like the essex vs pirate frigate or Niagara requirements vs SOL's .

 

Edited July 31, 2017 by Kanay

[DrZoidberg]

The grind is too much in this game. I dont mind if PVE players can enjoy the game, and get XP on ships, money for grind aswell. The problem is that if u dont do u cant go  forward as a PVP player. Over all  XP and money grind should be less.  PVP ship knowledge XP grind now is impossible. With PVP players should be able to unlock slots way faster, like 1-3 sink or assist for 1 slot unlock (u can multiplie the XP the ship gives like x10-x20, the money like x2-x4, and that should be reliable. Than both type of players should be happy.

[Hodo]

11 minutes ago, Kanay said:

The average Xp by mission for M&C is around 330xp , calculated while doing the grind of the last slot for the Essex needing 10k xp, some missions you get 391xp, some others only 251xp, a frigate brings 366xp for example ... the Bonus done for completing the mission are not added to the knowledge slots too.

In the end you have a same type of mission for a Cerberus or a indefatigable, bringing the same rewards but one needs a lot more XP than the other and will make it painful.

Then comes the irrationals in the Battle Rates and Xp needed for slots between the ships, like i was saying in another thread :

Essex vs Pirate Frigate :

225 BR vs 180

1st slot 2250xp for the Essex, 1500xp for the Pirate frigate

2nd slot 9050xp for the Essex, 6050xp for the  Pirate frigate

3rd slot 18100xp for the Essex, 12150xp for the  Pirate frigate

4th slot 29450xp for the Essex, 19750xp for the  Pirate frigate

5th slot 45300xp for the Essex, 30350xp for the  Pirate frigate

Both ships face the same Ai in missions, both earn the same XP on average, but here you have a ship that is way better in many aspect compared to the other, pirate frigate is faster than the essex, have the same thickness when using same build for woods/ trim, frigate have a bit more HP , have a way better turn rate ( + Essex have a serious problem since abusively nerfed when turning against the wind to make it even worse ), essex have 315 crew, the frigate 300, but sails need 130 crew on the essex vs 100 only on the pirate frigate ( while having very similar sails and exact same HP ) , the Essex have only one gun per side more than the frigate but have no chasers in counterpart for this.

In the end for pve it's very similar ships when it comes to efficiency and time spend to do the missions, pirate frigate is way more enjoyable and able to deal with 2 AI's way better and faster than the essex due to her higher turn rate and not having issues at all to turn against the wind and keep a very nice speed, Essex speed drop to almost to a full stop so you have to bypass this issue, but one needs 14950 more XP than the other ?? Why ? It really feels like an unwanted grind here.

An indefatigable can manage to do a fleet mission alone by itself, you need repairs and lot of rum but you can do it and ease the grind, for others it ain't really possible , and since we cannot do like before pick a fleet mission of the level under our ship and face all ships alone in our ship it's simply painful and feels often unfair comparing those ships.

As the RNG drops were mentioned i would like to add that for me loosing a ship isn't a big deal , it can be replaced more or less quickly, getting rarer woods is an issue but not that bad most of the times, need cash for this, but the upgrades applied on a ship and lost cannot be replaced most of the times, this is one of the biggest problems of this game, RNG is bad, always was always will be, i had up to 2 indiamans to store only the upgrades i dropped, both full mostly of upgrades like pumps, elevating screws, false keel, and so on, things that have not much use, but never dropped a single copper plating or a Cartahena refit yet ...

Today with global server down i went to EU erver to pass the time, this is the prices running there for some upgrades :

And same kind of stuff for offers ...  We are back to gold marines times selling for millions ... This is bad, simple as this, when you have permanent upgrades ( and to a less extend books ) costing more than top ships it should be enough to know that this only hurts the game, you need to grind for cash , for books, upgrades and cross fingers to get lucky enough ...  How does that favor the game ? Some players will never risk some of the ships they have not for the ship itself but for the upgrades put on it that will take a while to get back, this is aggravated since now all ships are one dura, at least before you could invest on such stuff or be lucky to drop one and profit of it a bit if you was loosing your ship, now upgrades have more value than the ship and can be lost easily, all stuff should be craftable in game or better remove all perma upgrades to favor players engagements.

Lastly the victory marks and some BP's or permits ... a Third rate or Bucentaure or Aga bp needs 50 combat marks, a Niagara Bp needs one victory mark, 175 combat marks , same as a Pavel or Bellona ?

A third rate needs 125 combat marks for a permit, but for a niagara you need again 1victory mark or 175 combat marks for this time 3 permits, why not directly put the permits for 1/3 of the price in combat marks ? an Endymion needs 50 combat marks in comparison, an Aga needs 75... Especially for such low level ship, a ship many starting players could enjoy at them levels, i still remember the first mission i done in a Niagara, was a blast to sail this ship, why put this behind such wall for many players that could enjoy the game sailing such ship ?

There is plenty of little things like this in game that feel like grind, unwanted and unnecessary grind that often makes no logic or sense like the essex vs pirate frigate or Niagara requirements vs SOL's .

 

To add on to the end there, you also need marks for the Trincomalee which is slower, and has less firepower and armor than the Endymoin yet nearly the same cost in marks.  ( Not to mention the Ledas horrible heel)

 

Yes I agree with you those are also issues, and the WHOLE BR system needs to be addressed.  Even the trader ships need to be adjusted.  Like a Trader Brig having a BR of 10, yet has 16guns + 2 chasers, and 60men without hammocks or crew space, with those two it has over 70.   Then when you add in other ship designs like the Trader Snow which is the slowest heaviest armed 6th rate trade ship in the game, BUT is also the SLOWEST trade ship in the game.   Why not buff its speed to match that of the Snow.   

[Slamz]

The question isn't "what do people put them on the market for".

The question is "what do people buy them for".

And I think the answer is more to do with inflation than with rarity. Which, to bring this back into relevance, is a result of "safe zone mission grinding" causing fountains of gold to come into the game with little risk. I wonder how many millions of gold these 1st rate mission grinders have by now. Maybe they really do buy a single British Gunnery Sergeant for 2 million because they have 30 million in the bank and nothing else to spend it on. It's not like they take any chances or need another ship.

[Barbancourt]

Maybe take the money away from combat with AI (missions and OW PVE), so you have to do another activity like trade, PvP or craft to finance that XP generation. 

 

[Prater]

 

2 hours ago, Lordicious said:

2. Open world pvp is bad, really bad. Learn from Potbs red zones, but it's too late now at this stage. 

This is false, and Potbs' red zones were the dumbest thing ever.  OW pvp is just fine, it is the requirements for ships and modules that limit it.  1+ million worth of modules is ridiculous when the Surprise itself only costs 100-200k.  P.s.  We tried Naval Action's equivalent of red zones with the admiralty pvp zone.

[BoomBox]

i agree with prater , NA is not POTB . If we had both servers together i'd agree with the red zones but being we have separate server i dont think we need red zones.

concerning grind . well basically i dont think it's that bad. i'd really like more ai ships on the ow and less time searching for an appropriate ai enemy to engage (i know it's directly answering the subject question), most of us still take missions instead of just attacking ai ships in ow.  the grind is not really a grind if you have fun playing. it use to be a lot of fun.

[Captain Lust]

9 hours ago, HachiRoku said:

More pvp rewards is usless since there is no pvp anymore. Look at the pvp leaderboards. It is sad. Before wipe there was 160 people online and i had none stop pvp. 600 players now and nothing. This is Slightly of topic but long sails is a kind of grind and time consuming. Ive tryed fighting against every nation since wipe and the open sea pvp is dead. Some of my clan mates sail 4 hours a day for no pvp at all. People mission in greenzone and have no need for sailing. I thought this was pvp server and not carebear server. You attack danes and sweds and there are towers every 1 km in battle. You plan to upgrade to unity 5 but there will be no naval action player base by then. I know im harsh but the feeling of this game dying is very sad for me. I love it to much to quit like alot of the best pvpers have. Dont forget one thing guys. Alot of you think the grind of ships is ok but i see your names and see hardcore players. Focus on casuals to get a player base 

Kind of my experience aswell... i mentioned this in another thread and was told i could get the same gold/time with pvp as with pve/crafting/carebearing... yeah no...

[Kanay]

1 hour ago, Slamz said:

The question isn't "what do people put them on the market for".

The question is "what do people buy them for".

And I think the answer is more to do with inflation than with rarity. Which, to bring this back into relevance, is a result of "safe zone mission grinding" causing fountains of gold to come into the game with little risk. I wonder how many millions of gold these 1st rate mission grinders have by now. Maybe they really do buy a single British Gunnery Sergeant for 2 million because they have 30 million in the bank and nothing else to spend it on. It's not like they take any chances or need another ship.

It have to do with the rarity, there is buy contracts for books at 650-700k  in global server where prices are not as high as on EU server,  got offers up to 1.5M for a single book i got in a mission when restarting to play some weeks ago, couple of weeks ago one guy traded a first rate for a single book and so on, books and upgrades have more value than the ship they are applied on, this is a problem, some won't ever put at risk ships where some very rare upgrades are applied because the loss will be very hard to replace unlike the ship itself, this is hurting the game badly in my opinion and adds more frustrating feelings to it too.

 I don't like to sail SOL's, i prefer frigates class, have no idea of how many cash you can grind with those fat arse ships now but we already had this when it was a lot easier to make money, RNG upgrades so rare that even at insane prices they were going out in a blink and not only bought by those having millions piled up doing nothing...

@Hodo yes trader ships BR's need to be reviewed like many other ships indeed, there is way too much disparity when it comes to permits / bps needs and BR's xp knowledge needed for the ships, many things are really not in line with what it should be. Compared to way bigger ships a simple ship like the niagara ( that can not be used in shallow PB's unless it have changed ) shouldn't require so much, especially since it's a nice ship to sail on and learn the ropes for a new players able to crew it, it's sad to restrict so much the accessibility of such ships. Same goes for XP requirements on similar ships .


 

Edited July 31, 2017 by Kanay

[Captain Lust]

11 hours ago, Aegir said:

Grinding to get a particular upgrade is a bit silly, so naturally those who try to do that would find it grindy.

Yeah and when you need that upgrade for your build ... the system becomes "a bit silly", for example copper plate - try to buy one from other players when RNG doesnt give you one... nobody is selling it and why would they?

[Captain Lust]

8 hours ago, Ronald Speirs said:

Personally i hate where the grind has gone to in game, more time is spent trying to get stupid books and experience to unlock slots on a ship, plus its made modules a rip off again, surely there are far better ways of doing it or making it better that people can have more of a equal playing field without and extensive grind to get to a level where they feel comfortable to head out and PvP.

The game is hardly fun these days with the amount of grinding to get anything, why cant modules be alot easier to craft and obtain, surely more people would be buying and prepared to go out fighting without having to worry about how hard it is to get modules again, POTBS i thought did it well, modules were easy enough to come by and they were in shops everywhere that u could just buy again and head back out, this game just doesn't seem to get things right and people get tired of the boring slow processes this game has implemented.

Amen, brother...

[HarryButpain]

This is a pvp game, and I, therefore, believe we have way too many pointless ranks. You want a learning period where new players learn the basic combat mechanics but once that is done there's really no real reason to be forced to grind your way through the ranks. A pvp rank and a port battle (or rvr rank) are as far as I am concerned fine. The current rank system is fine for pve server, though. First Lieutenant - Post Captain should be one rank, the pvp rank. Flag Captain - Rear Admiral the rvr rank. 

Let's face it, there's always reason to grind anyway to unlock knowledge slots, modules, cash or resources from AI traders. 

Again, this is a pvp game and not some mmorpg. People don't wanna go pvp in a low lvl ship because of the time it takes to even find an appropriate or equal opponent. Who are we to dictate what someone willing to actually go and pvp is allowed to sail? Isn't it alrdy time-consuming enough to find a fair fight (spare me the 'but I am a badass' responses, please)? Why not let ppl decide what they wanna sail to a pvp fight?

I'm just saying that I don't really see the point in ranks except for being able to sail a SOL or learning the game at the beginning.. If ppl wanna use a lynx in pvp there's nothing that stops them from doing so..

Edited July 31, 2017 by HarryButpain

[Farrago]

My definition of "the grind", which is considerable, may differ from some. Personally, if the mechanic requires doing stuff to unlock slots or gain other skill, obtain gold, conduct trade or combat by having to sail long distances -- I don't care. It's consistent. (The one exception being that I think the lack of XP or gold rewards when you fight valiantly but don't sink the enemy is a big deterrent for new players.)

What is a gind and eats valuable play time for no good reason: you can't do things in game that would be accomplished real life by a letter or instructions to an employee or a bill of materials. For example: harvest this oak and make oak planks wouldn't need a captain to sail to a port to personally issue the instruction. I shouldn't have to search out a third party solution or interact with a crafter to figure out how many cables and howsers, medium carriages, etc that I need to collect in order to prepare to have a ship built. With limited warehouse space,  neither I nor the crafter should have to do the dance to figure out how many of X I need to split, then trade to him, then he trades excess back, all the while we are both juggling to fit within available warehouse space. There should be a way to create, for example, a Connie teak/teak package that I could trade or store.

I hope you get what I'm talking about. I realize I'm talking about features that are no where near in game but I'm convinced we would be less concerned about some of the other "grinding" example mentioned in this thread if we had simple tools to deal with the non gameplay organizational logistical stuff. 

[Lordicious]

4 hours ago, Prater said:

 

This is false, and Potbs' red zones were the dumbest thing ever.  OW pvp is just fine, it is the requirements for ships and modules that limit it.  1+ million worth of modules is ridiculous when the Surprise itself only costs 100-200k.  P.s.  We tried Naval Action's equivalent of red zones with the admiralty pvp zone.

2 completely different things and you did not try potbs mechanics, so please. 

[Daguse]

11 hours ago, Prater said:

Travel times do not need to change.  You can travel extremely far in the right conditions right now.  No one needs to sail all over the map, this is an issue with the player's thinking, not the game itself.  There is nothing forcing the player to travel all over.

Really? Nothing is forcing me to travel anywhere so its fine? By that logic, no one is forcing you to do a KPR mission, so it's fine. 

The issue is if you want to go to the PVP, you have to travel, sometimes quite far. If you want to go to a PB, you have to travel, sometimes quite far. Look at New Orleans, it would take an hour plus to get from our base to NO in a first rate. 

The fact of the matter is, just sailing in OW is boring, aside from cleaning your hold of fish there is just nothing to do. 

Having a way for players to move more quickly (with in reason) around the map does nothing but promote game play. Players would spend less time sailing and more time fighting, trading, and general shenanigans. My method of Trade Winds and Currents is fair and pseudo realistic. 

11 hours ago, Prater said:

However, the issue with KPR and mission spawn is an issue.  No other capital would have this issue.  I think mission spawn around KPR needs to be looked at for that fix, instead of tweaking OW speeds.

Not sure how or why you think my post has any relation to the KPR issue. I'm all for fixing it. 

11 hours ago, Prater said:

I think the problem with grind is the cost of items.  Our ships have 1 durability now.  If we lose the ship, we lose it, we don't have 4 more lives.  This means the time to get back into your ship is lengthened.  There is also the issue that ship lives were reduced from 5 to 1 but total cost of materials is down only about 1/2.  I think reducing the cost 1/2 again should fix it.  To replace a surprise is pretty significant.  

1

I disagree, with only level 25~ I can get you a surprise a day. with current travel times, you wouldn't be able to get back to port if you lost it anyways. 

11 hours ago, Prater said:

If you put a half million worth or more of modules on it, to replace it takes an extreme amount of time. 

 

I agree that will take some time, however, I think you could do it in a few days. I never play EVE, however with elite dangerous, while they had the insurance system, it still would only take you a few days or so to get back a Andaconda. That being said, I would 100% be ok with an insurance system, as long as the cost to build a ship fell in line with it. That would mean maybe even doubling the cost of to make a ship. 

11 hours ago, Prater said:

If you look at all the recent complaints on Steam reviews, most seem to be about the grind, and I think this is what is meant, along with the amount of ship knowledge required.

 

That is a lot of assumption, but to be fair I believe some of it is in fact related to the gold grind and ship knowledge grind. To fix that they need to find additional sources of income. Missions do not pay enough to support a player (this is a good thing, we don't want people doing only missions all day long). PVP can be profitable, but only slightly. Trade can net you some good money, but not everyone wants to do that all day long. So they need to up the rewards for PVP, you should also get something for losing a PVP fight. I mean come on, you got to go buy a new ship.... As well the rewards for missions should be balanced, I don't believe the coin needs to change, however, you should get more loot and better loot. I DON'T GIVE A CRAP ABOUT 10 MED CANNONS. 

I have also seen plenty of reviews saying it takes too long to get anywhere. 

11 hours ago, Prater said:

 I myself don't have any problems with the xp or ship knowledge grind, just that I don't think blueprints were adjusted enough when durability was reduced to 1.  P.s.  I think only 5-7 rate blueprints needs to be adjusted.  1-4 rates might be fine or needing only minor adjustments.

I believe you are referring to the resource cost? I think they were trying to make 1st rates rare. However, it's kind of hard to do that and expect 50 people on a server that has 200-300~  players online to compete in port battles a few times a week. That being said I believe 1st rates should be rare, we shouldn't see everyone sailing around with them. I'm sure I'll get shot for this, however, I think the fix is to not change the cost but the demand. If deep water PBs didn't require 50 first rates and let's say limited it to 10-15 per side with the remaining manned by 4th rates you would see a drop in demand. A drop in demand would mean you would have more resources available for other ships. This would also completely change the PBs and make them a hell of a lot more strategic than they currently are. 

11 hours ago, Prater said:

I want realistic winds (preferably off windy.com or the NOAA), but why do you need to travel the distances wherein trade winds would help out?  P.s.  Trade winds only help you in one direction.  Travelling back to your starting port will take a considerably longer time. 

Take a look at the maps I posted, one is the wind, one is currents, for the most part, they go opposite each other with the exception of a few areas. with this in mind, they could map "channels" with increased speed in all directions. like I said, it would be pseudo realistic and allow for more emergent game play. At some point, you got to balance realism and fun. I belive that time has come for OW traval. 

Edited August 1, 2017 by Daguse