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This is a suggestion from a man in love - so pls bear with me that I am not in any way reasonable nor rational!

 

But for the love of all that is holy in the burning city of Road Town (later today)! pls do something for the Endymions turnrate. It baffles me that a Bellona, 74-gun third rate SoL.

I will not get into (again) how I think that one of the most celebrated royal navy frigates, the benchmark of RN frigattes from it's construction and the 50-years it was in service, that this ship has had a raw deal is beyond discussion. For balance I could accept, perhaps even agree to it's undercrewed state, it's piss poor sailing profile (and here we are reheeally stretching it) and it's less than ideal armor (though she did run down, outgun and outshine USS President). But to accept that any 5th rate frigatte should have a turnrate worse than a 3rd rate is simply something I cannot do! It defies the math, it defies reason, it defies gameplay balance and it defies the understanding of physics. I can readily agree that it is a matter of lenght to displacement values - but as far as I know the Bellona is longer (irl) than the Endymion and it sure as hell had a larger displacement!

 

So my suggestion is not really a suggestion. Rather it is a plea! Make the Endymion a ship that is what she was in historical records - a great sailor, outmatching anything and everything in speed. Keep it undercrewed and keep the (unhistorically) piss poor sailing profile, but improve it's turnrate to be at least on par with the generic frigate.. Or just the freaking 3rd rate SoL!

(sarcasm may be present in the last statement)

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I agree, she could do with a buff in turn rate. Or a buff in HP, or a buff in sailing profile. I think the sailing profile would be a great buff, but then you might have problems with her keeping up with Surprise. So, for that reason, I think this idea to buff the turn rate would be great. 
 

I believe that Endymion is like the Consitution and (probably) Indefatigable in regards to those three ships being some of the most nerfed ships in game, compared to what they were in real life. Probably, if you gave them characteristics closer to what they were in real life, you would have some balance issues, at least comparing those three to the other frigates in game. That being said, I do agree that Endy has been nerfed a bit too hard.

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2 hours ago, Bearwall said:

(though she did run down, outgun and outshine USS President)

You do realize that President had run aground, badly mauling its copper sheeting and messing up its hull, and that it wasn't just Endymion but a whole squadron behind it, right?  So President tried to run while Endymion could turn to fire broadsides on President's quarter and receive no return fire.  One on one, President in prime condition and with no reason to run and take broadsides without being able to return them, would have taken the Endymion in combat, so saying outgun isn't really correct.  One on one, Endymion wouldn't have even engaged the President.

Same turn rate as the Surprise?  The Endymion is 30  feet longer than the Surprise/Santa Cecilia, about 20 feet longer than the Belle Poule, 10 feet shorter than the Bellona, about 15-20 feet shorter than the Constitution, and 2 feet shorter than the Indy.  If anything the turn rate for both Indy and Endymion should be a bit better than the Constitution, which, looking at the api, appears to be the same turn rate.  Maybe I am reading this wrong but the api seems to show that the Coni, BellePoule, Endymion, Indy all have the same turn rate, and the Bellona has a considerably worse turn rate.  I'd put it as BellePoule, Endymion/Indy, Bellona, Coni, in that order of better to worse at turning, but only a slight difference between the Bellona and Coni, and Endymion/Indy having a little bit better turning than the Bellona.  BellePoule should have a turn rate closer to the Surprise/Santa Cecilia but not quite as good, a bit worse.  The Frigate is an odd duck of a ship, considering that it is modeled smaller than it should be.  Alex Conner or Maturin would be better to comment on all these ships.

Edited by Prater
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12 minutes ago, Prater said:

You do realize that President had run aground, badly mauling its copper sheeting and messing up its hull, and that it wasn't just Endymion but a whole squadron behind it, right?  So President tried to run while Endymion could turn to fire broadsides on President's quarter and receive no return fire.  One on one, President in prime condition and with no reason to run and take broadsides without being able to return them, would have taken the Endymion in combat, so saying outgun isn't really correct.  One on one, Endymion wouldn't have even engaged the President.

Same turn rate as the Surprise?  The Endymion is 30  feet longer than the Surprise/Santa Cecilia, about 20 feet longer than the Belle Poule, 10 feet shorter than the Bellona, about 15-20 feet shorter than the Constitution, and 2 feet shorter than the Indy.  If anything the turn rate for both Indy and Endymion should be a bit better than the Constitution, which, looking at the api, appears to be the same turn rate.  Maybe I am reading this wrong but the api seems to show that the Coni, BellePoule, Endymion, Indy all have the same turn rate, and the Bellona has a considerably worse turn rate.  I'd put it as BellePoule, Endymion/Indy, Bellona, Coni, in that order of better to worse at turning, but only a slight difference between the Bellona and Coni, and Endymion/Indy having a little bit better turning than the Bellona.  BellePoule should have a turn rate closer to the Surprise/Santa Cecilia but not quite as good, a bit worse.  The Frigate is an odd duck of a ship, considering that it is modeled smaller than it should be.  Alex Conner or Maturin would be better to comment on all these ships.

First off - I did write as the very, very first thing that I was not in any way rational! secondly ofc the connie would win in a broadside to broadside competition - 52-guns against 44-guns would be difficult and I've not said the Endymion should have the same turnrate as the surp I mentioned the generic frig as a target and turnrate is not just a matter of lenght but also about displacement of the water mass, construction of the rudder and amount of squaremeters of sails that can be manipulated in the winds - for any indication as to the manouverability of the ship we would have to take into account the handling reports filed in the RN archives for each of it's succesive commanders. They all praise her sailing abilities running with the wind and across the beam and they give fairly concise data to the speeds of the ship at different PoS.. In short the endymion has no reason whatsoever to be turning worse than the Bellona that as you point out has 10 feet longer, 30-guns more of a larger caliber and god knows how much more displacement.

The connie, the Belle Poule, the trinc and the Bellona all have better turnrates than the Endymion. If you doubt me - then try making them of the exact same mats.

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I agree... at least could they raised turning limit from 3.12 to some descent level. But I think problem lies in different place... I call it aft rake cancer... I agree that some crew should die from rake attack but not like most of it. Maybe reasonable 25% from rake...25% from port side and 25% from starboard and 25% from bow... below 25% graping effect drops radically. Then agile fast small frigates still have role in combat and agility of ships like enymion and consti or even trinco is no longer a big problem... also I would add permament upgrades drop from sinked ship of players ...that would also encourage more to PVP with more sinking mod instead of boarding renome meta

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Yeah, really a shame they put so much effort in the awesome model with all the details only to cripple her out of fear to make her OP when everyone is sailing consitutions and surprises already anyways... as if there was proper balance between ships that could be harmed... i sometimes pull the endymion out for some pve just to see her in action...

+1

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14 minutes ago, Captain Lust said:

Yeah, really a shame they put so much effort in the awesome model with all the details only to cripple her out of fear to make her OP when everyone is sailing consitutions and surprises already anyways... as if there was proper balance between ships that could be harmed... i sometimes pull the endymion out for some pve just to see her in action...

+1

You say that like the Endymion isn't already the best upwind tagger in game, and can not only easily catch any ship that isn't a suprise/schooner, but keep them in battle as well with its bow chasers.

Edited by Slim Jimmerson
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5 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

You say that like the Endymion isn't already the best upwind tagger in game, and can not only easily catch any ship that isn't a suprise/schooner, but keep them in battle as well with its bow chasers.

If you want a tagger... might aswell use a surprise?

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1 minute ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

Surprise is something like 1.5knts slower base speed than the Endy and isn't as suited for tagging upwind

I don't think we are playing the same game, mate...

http://www.navalactionwiki.com/index.php?title=File:SailingProfileSURPRISE.png

http://www.navalactionwiki.com/index.php?title=File:SailingProfileENDYMION.png

If Endy is so good i wonder why barely anyone uses it and you see Surprises everywhere? Btw the high base speed on Endymion is all it has and you can still stack speed on Surprise...

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13 minutes ago, Slim Jimmerson said:

Surprise is something like 1.5knts slower base speed than the Endy and isn't as suited for tagging upwind

 

Upwind is against the wind not when the wind comes from behind ... the endy would be really op if what you wrote would be right ...

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6 minutes ago, Lonar said:

 

Upwind is against the wind not when the wind comes from behind ... the endy would be really op if what you wrote would be right ...

Ah, my mistake haha.

Yes downwind at around the 135 mark, endy speed is unmatched and will catch any ship running in that angle. 

Its not the solo PVP beast that the suprise is, but its an extremely valuable ship to have in a group, and fits its role better than any other ship atm.

Edited by Slim Jimmerson
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4 hours ago, Prater said:

Same turn rate as the Surprise?  The Endymion is 30  feet longer than the Surprise/Santa Cecilia, about 20 feet longer than the Belle Poule, 10 feet shorter than the Bellona, about 15-20 feet shorter than the Constitution, and 2 feet shorter than the Indy. 

You are of course right on historical parameters of the ships. However. With all due respect I don't really care about how historically, politically or realistically correct this is in comparison to the build.
We have so many things in this game that are not realistic at all. Starting with the counter clockwise rotating wind and square sails are up sailing against the wind and finishing with circle capture in the PBs (the list is just too long in the middle) to use this as an argument.
Since this is not a simulator game and even you have admitted that even the Frigate is an odd one out all I care about is the balance and playability. This in fact should be the most important thing taking into consideration. Everything else should only apply if it fits into balance.

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17 minutes ago, koltes said:

We have so many things in this game that are not realistic at all. Starting with the counter clockwise rotating wind and square sails are up sailing against the wind

would like this to be changed to realistic :) just for the sake of completion.

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Just now, koltes said:

yeah me too, I wish we could setup sails to the wind angles lol

Yep. But starting with the simple wind we have having more effect on the squares and then moving up could be worth a test.

Or maybe it would just collapse into running fights...

Was pointing the unrealism excuse to reason against more realism :) The compromise is technical, 100%.

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3 hours ago, koltes said:

You are of course right on historical parameters of the ships. However. With all due respect I don't really care about how historically, politically or realistically correct this is in comparison to the build.
We have so many things in this game that are not realistic at all. Starting with the counter clockwise rotating wind and square sails are up sailing against the wind and finishing with circle capture in the PBs (the list is just too long in the middle) to use this as an argument.
Since this is not a simulator game and even you have admitted that even the Frigate is an odd one out all I care about is the balance and playability. This in fact should be the most important thing taking into consideration. Everything else should only apply if it fits into balance.

Having the same turn rate as the surprise would make the Endymion over powered.  One of the best turning, decently armed, and fastest frigates in the game.

 

7 hours ago, Bearwall said:

First off - I did write as the very, very first thing that I was not in any way rational! secondly ofc the connie would win in a broadside to broadside competition - 52-guns against 44-guns would be difficult and I've not said the Endymion should have the same turnrate as the surp I mentioned the generic frig as a target and turnrate is not just a matter of lenght but also about displacement of the water mass, construction of the rudder and amount of squaremeters of sails that can be manipulated in the winds - for any indication as to the manouverability of the ship we would have to take into account the handling reports filed in the RN archives for each of it's succesive commanders. They all praise her sailing abilities running with the wind and across the beam and they give fairly concise data to the speeds of the ship at different PoS.. In short the endymion has no reason whatsoever to be turning worse than the Bellona that as you point out has 10 feet longer, 30-guns more of a larger caliber and god knows how much more displacement.

The connie, the Belle Poule, the trinc and the Bellona all have better turnrates than the Endymion. If you doubt me - then try making them of the exact same mats.

The Frigate turns better than the Surprise, the Endymion should in no way have that turn rate.  If anything, the Indy and Endymion should have the same turn rate as the Trinc, and all three should have a bit more than what the Trinc currently has.  Giving the Endymion a very good turn rate (better than the Trinc ever had in the past) will mean, along with its speed and firepower (both better than the Trinc), it will outshadow the meta the Trinc ever had.  Why do you want to give it such a vastly different turn speed?  Give it a small change, and if that isn't enough tweak it again instead of going from one extreme to the next.

Edited by Prater
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Just now, Prater said:

Having the same turn rate as the surprise would make the Endymion over powered.  One of the fastest turning frigates and fastest frigates in the game.

OP how? In comparison to Surp? But it can only properly sail one direction. A Surp will get away any day from him.
OP vs who? What about Connie that does the same speed (considering the speed cap we have Endy at). Has more guns, more armor ect. What does Endy has against Connie? Can't even out turn her. Both have same sailing profile, same speed, by Connie is better equipped 

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2 minutes ago, koltes said:

OP how? In comparison to Surp? But it can only properly sail one direction. A Surp will get away any day from him.
OP vs who? What about Connie that does the same speed (considering the speed cap we have Endy at). Has more guns, more armor ect. What does Endy has against Connie? Can't even out turn her. Both have same sailing profile, same speed, by Connie is better equipped 

You forget speed was changed.  Conni can't get to 15 knots even if it uses every speed mod out there.

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