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Wanted: British Patrol Captains


Slamz

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20 hours ago, Chijohnaok said:

You're dreaming.

How is the largest British clan (and I am not sure who that even is) supposed to enforce its will on smaller ones?

In the pirate nation, smaller clans that resist are subject to outlaw battles to try to keep them in line.  That is not an option in GB or any of the other nations.  If a small clan (or any clan for that matter) doesn't like a decision (either imposed or arrived at by consensus of the majority) than they simply ignore it.  There is no penalty currently in game for GB (or other national) one clan to "force its will" on another.  

And I have seen no indication anywhere (forums or otherwise) that the developers have ever considered giving the outlaw tool to any nation other than pirate.  (In the distant past if you attacked someone of your own nation it automatically made you a pirate).  

It's a suggestion thread to allow nations to have rebellions or otherwise fight green on green after purchasing permissions from the admiralty. This would then allow players a way to strike at each other inside the nation when necessary. It would help in pecking order establishment as well as reduce toxicity in  Nat chats. 

My thread was about how such tools could solve the Brit and USA tendencies to collapse internally. It's not perfect but it would help. 

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2 hours ago, Iroquois Confederacy said:

We know where the real heart of Piracy is:  The Free Tribes.

@Hodo, ever thought about joining...? ;)

When I first started I was a pirate on the EU server.  I used a different name and I was not thrilled with it.  No point in being a pirate when you are nothing more than another nation but with a black flag.

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18 minutes ago, Hodo said:

When I first started I was a pirate on the EU server.  I used a different name and I was not thrilled with it.  No point in being a pirate when you are nothing more than another nation but with a black flag.

The Free Tribes have reoccupied abandoned Havana.  (Spanish faction, Global server.)  We do true piracy ;)

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5 hours ago, Bach said:

It's a suggestion thread to allow nations to have rebellions or otherwise fight green on green after purchasing permissions from the admiralty. This would then allow players a way to strike at each other inside the nation when necessary. It would help in pecking order establishment as well as reduce toxicity in  Nat chats. 

What?  That would be completely toxic, and in a way that could never die down.

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2 hours ago, Barbancourt (rownd) said:

What?  That would be completely toxic, and in a way that could never die down.

Agreed.  Why would any nation want this ?  Order, sir (Bach).  There must be order.  All navies are built upon this, or chaos would ensue.

Edited by Jean Ribault
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1 hour ago, Jean Ribault said:

Agreed.  Why would any nation want this ?  Order, sir (Bach).  There must be order.  All navies are built upon this, or chaos would ensue.

Pirates have it now and they are less toxic than GB or USA. 

Order is only created when the gentlemen on the other side of the table is inclined to act like one. Being able to fight each other does not require the fighting. It requires the respect for the possibility.  Ones mother or ideas are much less likely to be insulted when doing so can result in a punch in the nose. So mutual respect and harmony becomes more of a necessity and even if you don't like your teammates ideas it becomes more prudent to cooperate or meet in the middle.  Especially with the bigger or more combat oriented clans. 

Edited by Bach
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4 hours ago, Barbancourt (rownd) said:

What?  That would be completely toxic, and in a way that could never die down.

Players are toxic now in ways that never die down. There is simply no way to resolve such issues other than for one clan or the other leaving the nation. So everyone just stays angry and uncooperative. 

Had France had the same outlaw battle abilities as the Pirate team that whole ICN rebellion thing would have solved itself within the first week. Either the would be able to exert their will as the largest clan supporting Danes prime time or they wouldn't. But mutual respect would have been earned and nat chat likely less toxic. 

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What you are suggesting is elimination of the national pride and RVR system and establishment of a chaotic biggest clan wins system.  I'm bigger than you so do what I say because I'm holding the bigger stick, Mr. Roosevelt, is not a gentlemen's game.

Edited by Jean Ribault
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15 minutes ago, Bach said:

Players are toxic now in ways that never die down. There is simply no way to resolve such issues other than for one clan or the other leaving the nation. So everyone just stays angry and uncooperative. 

Had France had the same outlaw battle abilities as the Pirate team that whole ICN rebellion thing would have solved itself within the first week. Either the would be able to exert their will as the largest clan supporting Danes prime time or they wouldn't. But mutual respect would have been earned and nat chat likely less toxic. 

I think you have an idealized opinion of how this would work out. You think that if there is a disagreement then the sides have a fight and the one who wins gets his way and the others just accept it and carry on. Well I do not think that would happen, the losing side would still hold a grudge and would frustrate the winners at every occasion and if they could not do that then they would be forced out of the nation and probably the game. It would just be a case of bullying dissenters into submission.

Such a mechanic would quickly turn the game into a clan vs clan game (there may be merits in such a game). Majority of the toxicity on the forums relates back to some battle or other where someone won and someone lost and they each accuse the other of playing loosely with the game mechanics to gain unfair advantage. These grudges last for a long time even after the game mechanic in question has been changed.  

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Bach you were around I'm sure last year when this exact thing played out in pvp2 GB.  The internal clan power struggle led to a no-resolution split, one significant clan had to leave the nation, they went to France after which France was promptly stomped because of them, and then they left again.  There was no gentlemen's glove-slap in the face and follow-up cooperative chain of command.  Archaos sees it exactly right, in retrospect.

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1 hour ago, Jean Ribault said:

What you are suggesting is elimination of the national pride and RVR system and establishment of a chaotic biggest clan wins system.  I'm bigger than you so do what I say because I'm holding the bigger stick, Mr. Roosevelt, is not a gentlemen's game.

If you expect players to carry national pride, then prepare to be disappointed. Nations will never work as they do in real life. Players will do what they want, not what they are being told to by a chain of command (unless they want it).

1 hour ago, Archaos said:

I think you have an idealized opinion of how this would work out. You think that if there is a disagreement then the sides have a fight and the one who wins gets his way and the others just accept it and carry on. Well I do not think that would happen, the losing side would still hold a grudge and would frustrate the winners at every occasion and if they could not do that then they would be forced out of the nation and probably the game. It would just be a case of bullying dissenters into submission.

Such a mechanic would quickly turn the game into a clan vs clan game (there may be merits in such a game). Majority of the toxicity on the forums relates back to some battle or other where someone won and someone lost and they each accuse the other of playing loosely with the game mechanics to gain unfair advantage. These grudges last for a long time even after the game mechanic in question has been changed.  

I think you are holding an idealized view on how things should work with Nations. Civil war, rebellions, coup d'etats are a fact of life. They instigate exactly out of grudges. I would even say that most wars come from grudges, and since we are talking a war game here...

The game itself is already clan vs clan. We keep our own list of who is allied with whom and it looks a lot more complicated than Jeheil's picture. :P

Simply have being National retain some benefit: for example the ability to do PvE missions. (A co-op training ground, if you will. :D) Other than that do not try and force players into cooperation, it'll backfire.

As for the current story, AUSEZ has been there before. ;)

But at least admin is now open to the idea of having true independent Nations.

 

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9 hours ago, Skully said:

 

If you expect players to carry national pride, then prepare to be disappointed. Nations will never work as they do in real life. Players will do what they want, not what they are being told to by a chain of command (unless they want it).

 

 

...and neither did I suggest this either.  I am saying the clan vs clan doesn't resolve national issues.  Sounds like you want to twist my words.

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The problem with Britain and any other naval game with Britain is that it attracts the role players who are there simply to feel like Admiral Nelson. The nation gets inundated with them and so it has a large number of carebears compared to other nations. The US nation seemed to have this problem to. You can take the charted numbers and cut them in half and maybe you get close to the number of players that will consider pvp or rvr.

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On July 22, 2017 at 10:58 PM, Jean Ribault said:

Bach you were around I'm sure last year when this exact thing played out in pvp2 GB.  The internal clan power struggle led to a no-resolution split, one significant clan had to leave the nation, they went to France after which France was promptly stomped because of them, and then they left again.  There was no gentlemen's glove-slap in the face and follow-up cooperative chain of command.  Archaos sees it exactly right, in retrospect.

Sure but the issue never truly resolved. It just forced players to leave a nation after a long drawn out verbal series of arguments.  Grudges are not a bad thing.  Especially in a war game. But unresolvable grudges are more problematic.  

Currently two egos clash. This then drags their clans and potentially much of the rest of the nation into what has no option but to simply be a uncooperative verbal series of assaults back and forth.  Eventually one group of players defect to another nation almost solely for the purpose of taking that same grudge into a shooting war. This then destroys or otherwise shift the game power balances drastically.

What I propose is that players can take the ego clash into a shooting match before all the verbal strife in nation and eventual player defections.  Now maybe the two clans whose ego war started it just fight it out.  Perhaps one wins and they bury the hatchet and move on. Perhaps one side loses and decides to hold the same grudge they were going to do anyway. Maybe they fight and will never resolve but the issue runs through the paces faster to the eventual defection.  

In the end it's just provides another possibility for inner nation conflict resolution before the eventual defections. It's not a guarantee of anything and I think it will be less chaotic than you might think.  Pirates can do this in the past and even now. It's not super chaotic. It's becomes an organizational tool that can deal with not only ego conflicts but clans made up of Alts abusing a nation. A high price tag in the admiralty shop will also help curb a lot of chaotic whimsy on the tools use.

Edited by Bach
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I tend to agree that some way to fight clan vs clan is probably better than the alternative, which is dragging everything down in nation chat because that is literally your only outlet.

Favorite Conan the Barbarian quote: "Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing."

The actual ability to declare a clan war (to go rogue and start attacking your own nation) actually makes me think clans would be more inclined to hash things out with each other in polite fashion because they know the alternative is cannonballs.

 

I'll say again that I think this is what "pirates" should be -- not a real team at all, but a way for players to go rogue, maybe temporarily to hash out a few....details....maybe permanently because that's just how they play. Something not as easy as flipping a switch but not as horrendously inconvenient as switching to a new team. You're still British and can use British ports but you're a "British Pirate", fly the black flag, show up as an enemy and can attack anyone (you also can't participate in port battles, contention flips or Victory Marks).

Let the disgruntled people be pirates for a while and see what shakes out. I would have done it last month if it was an option. We'd have sorted out France's little problems real quick.

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54 minutes ago, Jean Ribault said:

So, where would solo players fit into this new world of clan chest beating and self-proclaimed domination?  There are a lot of them in the game, solo players I mean.

If they get mad enough they may suck up the gold cost to create a clan of 1 person just to be able to go shoot someone (plus they get extra storage with clan warehouse too).

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5 hours ago, Slamz said:

Let the disgruntled people be pirates for a while and see what shakes out. I would have done it last month if it was an option. We'd have sorted out France's little problems real quick.

This would just kill the nation and create permanent clan vs clan conflicts.  If you are stabbing me in the back you are going to become the primary enemy on a permanent basis.  There's no going back from there.
 

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8 hours ago, Slamz said:

I tend to agree that some way to fight clan vs clan is probably better than the alternative, which is dragging everything down in nation chat because that is literally your only outlet.

Favorite Conan the Barbarian quote: "Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing."

The actual ability to declare a clan war (to go rogue and start attacking your own nation) actually makes me think clans would be more inclined to hash things out with each other in polite fashion because they know the alternative is cannonballs.

 

I'll say again that I think this is what "pirates" should be -- not a real team at all, but a way for players to go rogue, maybe temporarily to hash out a few....details....maybe permanently because that's just how they play. Something not as easy as flipping a switch but not as horrendously inconvenient as switching to a new team. You're still British and can use British ports but you're a "British Pirate", fly the black flag, show up as an enemy and can attack anyone (you also can't participate in port battles, contention flips or Victory Marks).

Let the disgruntled people be pirates for a while and see what shakes out. I would have done it last month if it was an option. We'd have sorted out France's little problems real quick.

I have wrote up a Privateer thing for what I think they should do with pirates.  It would need a reputation system.  

First off no one can pick the Privateer/Pirate Nation from start screen.  You have to become one in game.  To become a pirate you have to do something evil like attack your own nation, just like the old ways and loose a big chunk of reputation points for that nation.  This will make you an outlaw/pirate in game until you can get reputation up and a Letter or Marque.   While you are a Pirate/Outlaw you can only use Freetowns and Pirate Haven ports and are limited to only level 1/2 ship yards.  While a Privateer with a LoM you can use the ports of that nation for outpost and trade only.  Still can't craft in that nation ports only in Freetown and Pirate Haven ports.  While you have a LoM you are protected from attacks from only that nation you have the letter for, you are still seen as a pirate/enemy to all other nations.  If you have bad reputation with a nation you can not get a LoM from them.

I would say that the only way to get a Letter of Marque is a clan thing.  This makes the game more clan based for the Pirates/Privateers and while they don't own any regions they can be used or hired as mercs by nations to fight on there side.   Each contract should be for a set time, kinda like Mechwarror online has 7 day contracts.  All clan members would fall under this contract for the set time of what nation they are working for.   The game can give pluss or penalty to credits and XP earned depending if it's a high pop nation or low pop (or do it by region controlled).  

This way you can still have pirates/Privateers that are British or Spanish and fly the black flag in nature.  While you don't have a LoM you are an OUTLAW/Pirate doing your own thing.  

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13 hours ago, Arsilon said:

If they get mad enough they may suck up the gold cost to create a clan of 1 person just to be able to go shoot someone (plus they get extra storage with clan warehouse too).

That is what I did... just for the storage LOL.

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On 22/07/2017 at 9:49 AM, Lovec1990 said:

OP good luck finding British players willing too protect others. In my experience: i got attacked by one pirate without the clan i ask for help and every single brit player that saw me ran into closest port with ship that could beat a pirate and after i said that battle is over there was not a minute everyone went outside.

With this kind of mentality its not possible too protect british ports. Ok there are clans that protect their own

to be fair ..many british captains have jumped into battles to help clanless brits ... only to see the guy they jumped into help escape at the first chance they get .. leaving the would be rescuer in the position of been the victim ..

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13 hours ago, Barbancourt (rownd) said:

This would just kill the nation and create permanent clan vs clan conflicts.  If you are stabbing me in the back you are going to become the primary enemy on a permanent basis.  There's no going back from there.

From what I've seen in France, that happens anyway. The reason France didn't engage in the port battle last night was because one clan, who shall remain nameless, refused to join the Teamspeak with the rest of the clans. And we can't join theirs because they've banned too many people. Nobody wanted to do a real, full blown port battle on mixed comms so it was decided to just abort the effort. This is all the old fallout from the original French split, like a month ago.

So it already looks permanent. Problem is we can't do anything about it. If one clan just shows up to ruin your team's port battles, what are you gonna do? If someone did that to BLACK, then BLACK could simply kill them on the spot in an outlaw battle. Other nations probably need this choice too.

16 hours ago, Jean Ribault said:

So, where would solo players fit into this new world of clan chest beating and self-proclaimed domination?  There are a lot of them in the game, solo players I mean.

I do wonder what solo players are thinking to accomplish. Their best bet is probably to do PvP patrols but they could also look for contention grinds to join in on and contention to counter-grind -- everyone is happy to have help with contention. In the end, though, this is a clan game and soloers are making themselves be the odd man out.

If they don't like how the clans are run, it might be time to start their own.

1 hour ago, Grundgemunkey said:

to be fair ..many british captains have jumped into battles to help clanless brits ... only to see the guy they jumped into help escape at the first chance they get .. leaving the would be rescuer in the position of been the victim ..

Probably all the alts. Brits are too spread out and it makes them the obvious choice for alts who need to sneak supplies over to some other nation.

Really the British strategy is just terrible right now. They did the old pre-wipe plan of "gobble the dots" but that's a distinctly bad plan now.

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Probably all the alts. Brits are too spread out and it makes them the obvious choice for alts who need to sneak supplies over to some other nation.

Really the British strategy is just terrible right now. They did the old pre-wipe plan of "gobble the dots" but that's a distinctly bad plan now.

i guess your talking about global on eu ... the advice is the opposite

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52 minutes ago, Slamz said:

 

I do wonder what solo players are thinking to accomplish. Their best bet is probably to do PvP patrols but they could also look for contention grinds to join in on and contention to counter-grind -- everyone is happy to have help with contention. In the end, though, this is a clan game and soloers are making themselves be the odd man out.

If they don't like how the clans are run, it might be time to start their own.

 

Having fun is the primary objective , when you first start playing this game as I have in the last couple of months you chose your nation based solely on your ability to communicate with the rest of the nation. However when I switched from eu to Global , I lost my forged papers and am unwilling to start levelling a 3rd time. For now I will stay where I am, but I would have gone Dutch or even French, up until the recent surge in your numbers. I have enjoyed a bit of OW pvp and I would guess I am not the only leveller / trader out there without a clan right now who is still a solo player looking in at those in their clans with internal strife, piss poor ettiquette in chat channels and one of the few players to offer real help and direction is the rat bag who nicks my inventory from time to time, thanks for the links Mr Koltes :P

 

Solo players are targets, they know and accept this or they would adapt and I am quite happy jumping in and out of fights when I see them, If I am awake when they happen. This is also a factor in why people play solo, little happens when they have their play time

 

I'll join a clan when I am ready, it isn't really needed to enjoy this game which I am

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6 hours ago, Slamz said:

From what I've seen in France, that happens anyway. The reason France didn't engage in the port battle last night was because one clan, who shall remain nameless, refused to join the Teamspeak with the rest of the clans. And we can't join theirs because they've banned too many people. Nobody wanted to do a real, full blown port battle on mixed comms so it was decided to just abort the effort. This is all the old fallout from the original French split, like a month ago.

So it already looks permanent. Problem is we can't do anything about it. If one clan just shows up to ruin your team's port battles, what are you gonna do? If someone did that to BLACK, then BLACK could simply kill them on the spot in an outlaw battle. Other nations probably need this choice too.

It's a long way from stubborn people not coordinating simple things before a nation event and not talking to each other in a battle, to a continual civil war in our home ports with all the economic and social damage that would cause on a daily basis.  Keep in mind that most of us wouldn't even have a choice in this situation - it would be some hotheads that start and perpetuate it, and everyone else being the primary collateral damage. 

 

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