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Thonys

Historical pirates

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in a historical point of view 

are pirates allowed to have second and first rates i personly don't believe they can.

so,if not why is it possible that they can have it then 

i believe historically they can sail a 4 rate, max and thats it...

therefore i believe access to a 3, 2 rate and a first-rate should not be allowed

edit : corrected typo of rates

Edited by Thonys

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This whole argument has been covered before and until pirates get their own special game mechanics they are just another nation and can sail the same ships and conquer ports as other nations.

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In a historical point of view. It's very inaccurate that you are using Internet communication to call revenge fleet. Isn't it?

If we are still in a historical point of view. Do you have any confirmed resources about pirate 3th rate revelation? Thank you for sharing with us your expertise judgment based on what? dreaming? guessing?

 

For now, rats are a regular nation, removing access to the certain ships will not make them more special or different

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In a historical point of view, United Provinces never sailed HMS Victory, Santissima or Océan.

Naval Action is a game. Welcome.

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Pirates should be different, but we cant just take away portbattles and 1st rates from them with out giving them something to replace it  (tempting as it is;))

maybe we should start a radical ideas for pirates thread

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I think the OP has a point:

 

Right now, pirates are nothing but a duplicate of other nations, with a special flag and the ability to tag each other.

If pirates were to become some real privateer operating out of FT or other hidden outpost, they could play a real role as commerce raider behind the lines instead of fielding 25 man PB fleets like everyon else. If they had their own commerce raider mechaninc, then they could be limited to maybe 5th rates.

Until then, we got to accept they are just a regular nation.

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4 hours ago, Thonys said:

in a historical point of view 

are pirates allowed to have second and first rates i personly don't believe they can.

so,if not why is it possible that they can have it then 

i believe historically they can sail a 3 rate, max and thats it...

therefore i believe access to a 2 rate and a first-rate should not be allowed

There was NO pirate in history that sailed a ship larger than a 5th rate.  Black Beard's ship the Queen Annes Revenge was a small 5th rate, probably akin to a Cerberus or Renomee in game.  

Pirates were limited in what they could use due to several factors.

1- They had to buy or capture the ship they used.

2- They had to crew that ship.

3- They had to pay for provisions and outfitting of that ship

4- They had to keep that ship.. which meant getting places bigger ships couldnt.

This is why vast majority of real pirates sailed in 6th and 7th rate ships, Brigs, Snows, Schooners, and Ketches.  

Their biggest advantage is they would hide as trade ships in major trade routes and wait in search of prey.  No one looks twice at a fellow trade ship.  They would mirror that ship for a few hours, sometimes days, till they were sure they had the element of surprise then run it down, and take the ship before it had a chance to escape.

Each pirate had their own style on taking a ship, some were very methodical others were brutal and fast.  One thing is sure, few of them lived very long. Average life of a real pirate was 12-18months. 

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8 hours ago, Thonys said:

in a historical point of view 

are pirates allowed to have second and first rates i personly don't believe they can.

so,if not why is it possible that they can have it then 

i believe historically they can sail a 3 rate, max and thats it...

therefore i believe access to a 2 rate and a first-rate should not be allowed

This game title tells you it's a real life sim, but instead Devs do what they want with it. Pirates never sailed 1st rates, but if Devs remove them they will loose players, so ... figure. They trapped themselves once again. 

Edited by Lordicious

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45 minutes ago, Hodo said:

This is why vast majority of real pirates sailed in 6th and 7th rate ships, Brigs, Snows, Schooners, and Ketches.  

Their biggest advantage is they would hide as trade ships in major trade routes and wait in search of prey.  No one looks twice at a fellow trade ship.  They would mirror that ship for a few hours, sometimes days, till they were sure they had the element of surprise then run it down, and take the ship before it had a chance to escape.

Each pirate had their own style on taking a ship, some were very methodical others were brutal and fast.  One thing is sure, few of them lived very long. Average life of a real pirate was 12-18months. 

being able to disguise them selves as trade ships of other nations.... yes pirates  would like that ;)

seriously though, that would be a massive advantage even if  limiting them to shallow water ships, hmm not sure how that would ballance

another idea,

A hard limit of 5th rates, but able to over crew them by 20/30%, or a large  boarding bonus.  tp to free towns.

They'd lose all their deep water ports maybe but keep the shallows. (is kidds etc shallow?)

Just ideas really, I'm sure there r better ones

some pirate views would be appreciated as their view will be different from mine.

Edited by Elbizor

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I would love to see Pirates have unique mechanics that were both better and worse than what nationals have to work with.

Some ideas:

- No capture of land, port raids only
- Limited number of "Pirate Den" uncappable homeports spread throughout the map (Mortimer Town, etc.) 6-8 in total, spread around the map.
- Maintain current access to free ports, including creating outposts in them if desired
- Permanent "Smuggler" status - can enter any port of any nation with a trade vessel
- Can create purchase contracts in any port they enter
- Can only create production buildings / shipyards / workshops in pirate dens or freeports
- Cannot craft ships larger than 5th rate
- Have a hard limit on their maximum crew size, say 400 crew: enough to sail a squadron of 2-3 unrated vessels in fleet, but not enough to properly crew anything bigger than a 5th rate
- Additional Pirate -exclusive versions of unrated vessels with various small boosts to speed / turn / etc.
- Access to additional faction-specific skill books and/or ship upgrades (i.e. "Terrifying Reputation" skill could grant melee attack bonus, etc.)
 

I don't support teleports of ships for anyone, and would be fine with teleports of captains (between outposts) being removed, too. It's an OW sailing game, I think people should sail, and I firmly believe that all of the other mechanics (trade, RVR, etc.) do not work properly when fast travel can be used to circumvent them.

Edited by Benedict Ahhnold

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1 hour ago, Benedict Ahhnold said:


 

I don't support teleports of ships for anyone, and would be fine with teleports of captains (between outposts) being removed, too. It's an OW sailing game, I think people should sail, and I firmly believe that all of the other mechanics (trade, RVR, etc.) do not work properly when fast travel can be used to circumvent them.

I agree with most of your proposition, but going a bit off topic here, the removal of "captain TP" between outpost would not add anything.

Everyone would just travel between outposts in basic cutter and that adds nothing new to OW content compared to what we have now.

No ship TP is enough as it is.

I don't even see the point of no TP from FT, considering you'd still have to sail your ships and repairs in there anyway. As a PVP Global France player, stuck in the corner of the map,  I would be more involved in foreign waters if it meant I wasn't locked in there. The idea of sailing back to my main area for whatever reason in a basic cutter just for the sake of it makes me puke. 

Edited by Serk

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3 hours ago, Otto Kohl said:

Give pirates uniqe mechanics and i will gladly get rid of all SOL's i have.

Pretty much this... i don't like pirates having SOLs either but if you remove them for pirates you have to remove them from the conquest system, too. And of course give them something unique...

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15 minutes ago, Serk said:

I agree with most of your proposition, but going a bit off topic here, the removal of "captain TP" between outpost would not add anything.

Everyone would just travel between outposts in basic cutter and that adds nothing new to OW content compared to what we have now.

No ship TP is enough as it is.

I don't even see the point of no TP from FT, considering you'd still have to sail your ships and repairs in there anyway. As a PVP Global France player, stuck in the corner of the map,  I would be more involved in foreign waters if it meant I wasn't locked in there. The idea of sailing back to my main area for whatever reason in a basic cutter just for the sake of it makes me puke. 

Captain TP to free port makes it easy to setup flash gank mobs or PB fleets in enemy waters, lets traders have far easier access to monopolize trade goods, and allows revenge fleets even more opportunity to initiate "retag of doom" cycles.

So many of the mechanical problems in this game have teleports as a primary contributing cause.

Edited to add: I don't sail anywhere in a Basic Cutter. What if you randomly cross paths with a trader and you can't cap him? No thanks.  I'm always hunting, even when I'm moving.

Edited by Benedict Ahhnold

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There are ways to fix this other than eliminating the TP. Severly reduce the amount of FT on the map (Do we really need 4 FT in the lesser antilles?). Limit FT to 5th rates, etc.

Also, I doubt you would hunt anything between Fort Royal and Bridgetown if you were playing as France..

Edited by Serk

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10 hours ago, Lordicious said:

This game title tells you it's a real life sim, but instead Devs do what they want with it. Pirates never sailed 1st rates, but if Devs remove them they will loose players, so ... figure. They trapped themselves once again. 

I don't recall the devs saying this is a sim, care to prove me wrong?

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11 hours ago, Hodo said:

There was NO pirate in history that sailed a ship larger than a 5th rate.  Black Beard's ship the Queen Annes Revenge was a small 5th rate, probably akin to a Cerberus or Renomee in game.  

Bartholomew? Stole a British Man-o-War.. 23 guns per side and 12 chassers total.. That is a 4th rate by any system of counting

 

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12 hours ago, CaptVonGunn said:

Bartholomew? Stole a British Man-o-War.. 23 guns per side and 12 chassers total.. That is a 4th rate by any system of counting

 

But he didnt use it as a flag ship.  It was a temporary vessel not a primary hunting vessel.

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Pirates right now are another nation with the jolly rogers flag so pirates are not real pirates it's a nation like the others. The entire pirate nation should be reworked and have its own mechanics like many people is requesting in forums, Devs should start to listen players like they did in the last patch, and make the game great again because 700 top players is not good at all we were at 1200 just after the wipe.

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If we are playing the historical fact game. Non of your nationals would have any allies and you would attack each other you laid sight on them. Also you nations would only be able to captain a ship by being born into a rich family or by buying your command!!!

There would only be one of each named ship in game.

Shall I continue? 

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No one would have allies?  There were alliances and pacts in the real world during this time, not to mention nations being neutral to others.

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So when are you going to ask the Devs to introduce tax, wages and supply costs to the nationals!?! 

After all your financial backers back home who paid for you commission to captain would historically take 50-60% of any money you made!

Also you had to pay your crew, pay for supplys and the upkeep of your ship! 

What I see is yet another I hate pirates post. I'm guessing they stole your favourite ship!!!

You can't ask to have historic pirates but then keep the nationals as fake!

 

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Quote

So when are you going to ask the Devs to introduce tax, wages and supply costs to the nationals!?! 

The state and shipowners would pay for all of that in reality.

So actually it's the pirates who would realistically have to deal with even more red tape if they wanted to access the market.

So far as the naval officer is concerned, the service is communism. His biscuits come are delivered by the ton, for free. Pirates need to steal or buy it all. Privateersmen wages are miniscule or nonexistent, since the crew has a share in the prizes.

And oh wait, pirate captains receive only around 1% of the value of each prize, if there are 200 pirates in the crew. Naval and privateer captains would receive double-digit percentages by comparison. And there wasn't income tax back then.

 

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23 hours ago, monk33y said:

If we are playing the historical fact game. Non of your nationals would have any allies and you would attack each other you laid sight on them. Also you nations would only be able to captain a ship by being born into a rich family or by buying your command!!!

There would only be one of each named ship in game.

Shall I continue? 

Funny, historically the Royal Navy captains were not from just rich families.  They were often in position because they had worked their way through the naval ranks.  They may have got their position as a midshipman on a ship because of family status, but they had to EARN their captain position.    Horatio Nelson was not a rich family that bought his command, case and point.

In the French Navy, prior to Napoleon the French Navy was exactly this... after the French Revolution it was much different.

The Spanish Navy was based on Aristocracy for command.   But the Danish Navy was based on merit.  

As for the named ships...

We will take the Ballona as an example.

The Ballona was the basis for most of the Royal Navies 3rd rate 74s, so seeing as we have the "3rd rate" and the Ballona in game, we actually have  a redundant ship.

The Constitution was actually a class of ship, and the USS Constitution was the first of the class.  

The Trincomalee was a Leda class, and they were all built the same aside from wood type.  

The Snow, Brig, Navy Brig are all based on actual ships, but are actually pretty common designs.

The Rattlesnake, Niagara, Privateer, Lynx, and Pickle again, same as the Snow.

So while we call them by their proper names, most if not all of the ships in this game had more than one of that type built.  

The only ones I can think of that were individual ships was the Nuestra Señora de la Santísima Trinidad. Which was a one off design.   

And the L'Ocean.  

Other than that the Victory was 1 of 12 of its class.  

 

As for alliances....

The French and Spanish had an alliance during this time, 

The Danes and English were in an alliance.  (Well the Danes were forced into it).

The US and France had an accord of mutual support and trade.  (so a non-aggression pact)

 

Edited by Hodo

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6 hours ago, monk33y said:

So when are you going to ask the Devs to introduce tax, wages and supply costs to the nationals!?! 

After all your financial backers back home who paid for you commission to captain would historically take 50-60% of any money you made!

Also you had to pay your crew, pay for supplys and the upkeep of your ship! 

What I see is yet another I hate pirates post. I'm guessing they stole your favourite ship!!!

You can't ask to have historic pirates but then keep the nationals as fake!

 

I would love some of those features.  But again you are mistaken.  

Naval officers did not pay for their crews wages.  That was taken out of the ships funds which was handled by the Purser on the vessel.   On frigate commands, where they were often granted prize rights, they would get additional pay from prize captures.  This was broken down according to the prize laws at that time.  (you can google prize laws and find out what they were)   Most of the time it was a simple arbitration system where they assessed the value of the vessel and its cargo, then applied that to the prize pay for the ship.  Which was broken down in 8 parts.   2 shares went to the crown, 1 share to the admiral of that squadron, 1 share to the captain, 2 shares to the ship, all jr officers and senior enlisted shared a share, the crew was then split into ratings and shares were split accordingly.   

I believe Admiral Pellew's most successful patrol netted his crew the equivalent of 10 years pay after prize payout from one voyage.  

 

If you were a privateer, your shares were taxed a bit more, usually 2.5 shares went to the crown if not more.  Sometimes you would have to pay your backers with a shares from the prize, but that was often negotiated prior to the voyage.  The same was for merchants who did not own their vessels.   But most privateers owned their vessels and this was not an issue.   

 

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