White Peace - France-Denmark Trade Conflict ends

[Slamz]

1 hour ago, chailang said:

随后我们开始按照协议 帮助法国激活CM  但是我们的敌意总是被法国降低,  我们无法准确的控制敌意，导致了过早的生成了港口战斗（我们的错）

[google translate: "Then we started to help France in accordance with the agreement to activate CM but our hostility was always reduced by France, we could not accurately control hostility, leading to prematurely generated port fights (our fault)"]

This is a lie. 谎言

We had people in the ICS teamspeak when they were talking about having CCCP flip it during the early morning. ICS wanted this because they could have more people online then and they were not happy that other French clans were getting so many people into the port battles. We have heard this with our own ears so either you are lying or you have traitors within your own ranks who did this "accident" and lied to you about it.

1 hour ago, chailang said:

BT和GT确实要归还法国　但是我们的船还在港口中没有撤退　想等待1-2天进行撤退

[google translate: "BT and GT do have to return to France but our boat still has no retreat in the port to wait for 1-2 days to retreat"]

La Desirade is a neutral port you could have used or you could have sailed 10 minutes further to a Danish port. Do not treat us like idiot children. Your excuse is pathetic.

CCCP told us that we would not get BT and GT back "until the return of the diplomacy system" which was the final cause of our attack.

I do not know if you think everything you are saying is true and people under you have deceived you or if you are purposefully lying to everyone now and think we are all too stupid to realize it.
 

To think all of this occurred because CCCP lost a cargo ship.

All of this. 3+ weeks of war and pages of ridiculous posts and back and forth deals because CCCP lost one cargo ship on a PvP server.

I hope they break this agreement so we can return to war with them. They are far more dangerous as our "friend" than they ever were as an enemy.

It is only out of respect for the other French clans that Purge is not going to flip Road Town tonight.

[Bach]

30 minutes ago, Molecularbioguy said:

For all those accusing ICS of choosing clan over nation... look at who's sabotaged the peace deals. Who attacked the Danes the previous two times the truces fell through? Even more, who was happy to gain Conquest Marks from Bridgetown and other port flips the Danes worked to set and then didn't attend? Who, after benefiting from this arrangement (and only after), then promptly attacked the Danes without warning? Who are now looking for any excuse to break the current peace (in this thread alone)? Given the history of attempted peaces falling through, I really wonder if this one will hold. Watch carefully to see who causes it to fall through if it does... I wonder if the guys getting worked up about the Danes taking Swedish territory until the Swedes can take it, have Conquest Mark income up there at stake that they don't want to lose very fast... makes me wonder who puts clan or personal interest above nation. After the first few battles with the Danes, ICS saw how pointless it was, and were willing to take a personal hit to end it, by paying the Danes the Indiamen they asked for to accept a truce. ICS, and not anyone else in France, paid that. Who else in France has been willing to take a personal hit, in exchange for something that in their opinion will help the nation, at cost to themselves?

From what I've seen and heard, ICS has and always has wanted to go after the Brits. The Dutch are fun, kudos to you guys. We saw the war with the Danes as a pointless distraction from the beginning, which distraction prevented France from having the concentrated force necessary to defend Haiti against the Brits. 

I get that people in the nation want different things. A lot want OW PvP, others are more into RvR. A couple traders and economists sailing around. I like Vllad's humorous post about the 4 types of NA players in another thread. Whatever we do to try to work with each other as a nation, we should try to work towards goals that accommodate each playstyle as much as possible.

Here's the big one: if someone disagrees with you, fine. Disagree all you want, argue all you want, I'm all for debate, but when it devolves in endless shouting and toxic personal attacks in nation, that makes people not want to play with you guys anymore. If we can learn to disagree without descending in hate and vitriol and actually act like adults, great. If not, bye.

Though we all do love Microbiology, who doesn't?  An in game name or signature would be appreciated.

I get the frustration. I really do.  If you read Chialang's post his frustration comes from Elric II disappearing suddenly and without warning. I suspect this was possibly a translator and diplomat they were comfortable with.  Johnny K, I believe, was well intentioned and also seems to be someone Chialang is comfortable with. But he simply lost control of the narrative on the French side and everything blew up from there. Good bad or whatever it just didn't work out. Rather than simply say "oops" and move on he tried to defend and force things and so it just got worse.  Even if it was the right thing to do it still got worse due to the method. 

Now also by Chialang's post we see ICS is at the heart of this. The initial attacks on the Dane's were by ICS. The initial deal and its sequential confusion were in ICS hands. However, ICS also did in fact take on the responsibility for reparations.  But after that there was some TS convo intercepted by other clans that exposed a possible backdoor deal by ISC. Now to be fair, I was not there and that could be real or it could have been a troublemaker inside the ICS TS.  Problem is that many, good or bad, believed it and then the Danes accidentally made it happen as foretold.  So this looks all really really bad.  Worst thing ICS could do at this point was continue to fight the rest of the nation rather than just apologize and make up. But instead ICS withdrew from the nation essentially leaving everyone else with the big mess. Again, well meaning or not, it destroyed the trust. Then in the peace negotiations where BLACK and others are trying to patch all this up the ICS, again, get caught admittedly screen shooting the French private comms and posting them to the Danes. This may not have been ill intentioned and perhaps was meant to further communications. But once again it was the worst way to handle the situation at the moment.  Permission to send it to the Danes should have been respectfully requested first. It would have cleared up a lot.  I'm not trying to pick on anyone but you have to admit the handling of various events in this by the ICS certainly could have been better.

As to the toxicity level I see it too. It would be best if everyone could hold back in Nat chat. But it is what it is and only the foolish take their battles there.

 

[Slamz]

On 7/7/2017 at 4:38 PM, Teutonic said:

No hostile port battles

Just to be clear, this is the line CCCP is violating.

Attacking French St. Johns is a hostile port battle in every sense of the word.

We did not agree to it.

[z4ys]

@ CCCP It would be a total differend thing when sweden flips the french port and CCCP flips the swedish port. The way CCCP is doing it now is against the treaty.

So dont tell us ICS is the only french clan that honors a treaty. Maybe CCCP should honor treaties themself before judging others.

Old PvP2 days are over We are on PvP global now!

Edited July 8, 2017 by z4ys

[chailang]

25 minutes ago, Slamz said:

 

我再次重复,港口依靠协议不是你法国的   闭嘴

[Barbancourt]

Given the huge amount of effort and frustration in various ways that got us to this agreement, can we at least in the opening days make an extraordinary effort to see that it works?  The route that Leewards/Bovenwinds becomes Sveedish, as agreed, seems like a quibbling technicality to me.  We are creating more unnecessary bad blood by arguing over what may be a week's worth of regional ownership not being exactly as we expected, and it makes it looks like the agreement was not entirely sincere when we are unable to discuss these details in a more accomodating manner.  If the Sveedish Meatballs don't make a serious move to take these regions in a week then we can really start to be concerned for the long term nature of the treaty.  In the meantime, perhaps CCCP can leave Bovenwinds as-is until the Sweedish complete moving into Leewards as a gesture of wanting this to work.

[chailang]

1小时前，Slamz说：

[谷歌翻译：“然后，我们开始帮助法国按照协议启动CM，但我们的敌意总是被法国减少，我们无法准确控制敌意，导致过早产生的港口战斗（我们的错）”]

英文的谎言这谎言

我们在ICS团队中有人说，他们正在谈论在清晨CCCP翻转它。ICS想要这个，因为他们可以有更多的人在线，而且他们不高兴，其他法国部族正在让这么多人进入港口战役。我们已经用自己的耳朵听到了这一点，所以要么是说谎，要在你自己的队伍中有叛徒，谁做了这个“意外”并且对你说说（我们并没说过什么时间段激活CM，但是我们努力在你们的时间段激活，你们主动降低敌意导致我们无法判断

[谷歌翻译：“BT和GT确实要回到法国，但我们的船还没有撤退在港口等待1-2天撤退”]

你的借口是可悲的..是否你可以使用中立端口？或者您可以在丹麦港口进一步航行10分钟。不要把我们当成白痴的孩子（我们需要上班/上学 有些人有事情无法上线，他们需要时间

CCCP告诉我们，我们不会让BT和GT回到“外交系统退回”之前，这是我们攻击的最后原因（这是在你们攻击之后说的，我清楚的记得

我不知道你是否认为你所说的一切都是真实的，你们下面的人欺骗了你，或者如果你有目的地向每个人撒谎，并认为我们都很愚蠢地意识到这一点（报告人身攻击
 

认为所有这一切都是因为CCCP失去了一个货船。（超过10条印度人

所有这些.3个多星期的战争和页面的荒谬的帖子和来回交易，  因为CCCP在PvP服务器上丢了一艘货船。（被“盟友”偷袭击沉10条以上 

我希望他们违反这个协议，所以我们可以和他们战争。他们比我们的“朋友”更像是敌人一样危险。

其他的法国部族只是出于尊重，清除今晚不会打倒路镇。

 

Edited July 8, 2017 by chailang

[Landomatic]

53 minutes ago, Bach said:

Though we all do love Microbiology, who doesn't?  An in game name or signature would be appreciated.

I get the frustration. I really do.  If you read Chialang's post his frustration comes from Elric II disappearing suddenly and without warning. I suspect this was possibly a translator and diplomat they were comfortable with.  Johnny K, I believe, was well intentioned and also seems to be someone Chialang is comfortable with. But he simply lost control of the narrative on the French side and everything blew up from there. Good bad or whatever it just didn't work out. Rather than simply say "oops" and move on he tried to defend and force things and so it just got worse.  Even if it was the right thing to do it still got worse due to the method. 

Now also by Chialang's post we see ICS is at the heart of this. The initial attacks on the Dane's were by ICS. The initial deal and its sequential confusion were in ICS hands. However, ICS also did in fact take on the responsibility for reparations.  But after that there was some TS convo intercepted by other clans that exposed a possible backdoor deal by ISC. Now to be fair, I was not there and that could be real or it could have been a troublemaker inside the ICS TS.  Problem is that many, good or bad, believed it and then the Danes accidentally made it happen as foretold.  So this looks all really really bad.  Worst thing ICS could do at this point was continue to fight the rest of the nation rather than just apologize and make up. But instead ICS withdrew from the nation essentially leaving everyone else with the big mess. Again, well meaning or not, it destroyed the trust. Then in the peace negotiations where BLACK and others are trying to patch all this up the ICS, again, get caught admittedly screen shooting the French private comms and posting them to the Danes. This may not have been ill intentioned and perhaps was meant to further communications. But once again it was the worst way to handle the situation at the moment.  Permission to send it to the Danes should have been respectfully requested first. It would have cleared up a lot.  I'm not trying to pick on anyone but you have to admit the handling of various events in this by the ICS certainly could have been better.

As to the toxicity level I see it too. It would be best if everyone could hold back in Nat chat. But it is what it is and only the foolish take their battles there.

 

It's true, ICS defended herself while trading in Gustavia without escort, day 2 of the megapatch.  We then brought escort to defend our trading operations which resulted in escalations.  And as we're an international clan, early one morning our time, a massive Chinese trading fleet was discovered in Ft. Royal and promptly sunk, burned, and taken as prizes.  I have another post in a thread elsewhere detailing how the conflict escalated.

There's still a ton of conjecture here.  It's my understanding the screen shot issue was a threat by a guy in nation chat, after being brow beat yet again, who doesn't have access to Discord anyway, of information that would have shot this second round of peace negotiations in the foot and made the 'other' clans look unfavorable maybe even treacherous.  Moreover, after we transferred ownership of the French National TS to one of the 'other' clans, we've come to find they removed all of ICS from it until I was allowed in yesterday; under protest and scrutiny I'm sure. The TS issue is falsely represented here as well.  The sentiment of the accidental port flip was one of frustration not policy.  Nobody within ICS told the Chinese to set Bridgetown early in the morning, but when the 'other' clans got vocal and accused ICS of being Dane alts a comment in TS was made along the lines of: 'F-it, we'll just all get up early and make sure we have more players on than the 'other' clans do.'  But I'm sure the French 'spy' who sat in our TS neglected to mention those details.  As I was present for the conversation I can tell you that's exactly how it went down.

I've seen some leadership from other clans mention you're trying to smooth things over with France, specifically ICS.  But I have come to understand that was at the behest of foreign parties whom recognize that France should be unified for the sake of a large threat incoming.

It's pretty easy to see that ICS has a policy of compromise and a willingness to work with people.  If the 'other' French clans can as well I'd love to see it. Engaging in spycraft and brow beating, shaming if you will, will not yield favourable results domestically and will muddy the waters externally.

Edited July 8, 2017 by Landomatic

[chailang]

3 minutes ago, Barbancourt (rownd) said:

鉴于以各种方式使我们达成这项协议的巨大努力和挫折，至少在开幕之际，我们至少可以非常努力地看到它有效吗？按照同意的方式，Leewards / Bovenwinds成为Sveedish的路线似乎对我来说颇具挑剔的技术性。我们正在创造更多不必要的坏血，争论一周的区域所有权价值并不完全符合我们的预期，而且当我们无法在更加适应的情况下讨论这些细节时，看起来协议并不完全是真诚的方式。如果斯威士兰肉丸在一个星期内没有认真地采取这些地区，那么我们真的可以开始关心条约的长期性质。在此期间，也许CCCP可以直接离开Bovenwind，直到Sweedish完成进入Leewards，作为想要这样做的姿态。

协议上写着，港口属于瑞典，即瑞典有权分配他们，这个地区不是法国人的.我们的行为是经过瑞典同意的。

法国人同不同意，或者开不开心，与我们无关.  

我希望法国人不要再干涉我们和瑞典的外交.

[Arsilon]

10 minutes ago, chailang said:

Says the agreement, the port belongs to Sweden that Sweden is authorized to assign them, the region is not French. Our behavior is the result of Sweden's consent.

French people do not agree with, or does not happy, nothing to do with us.  

I hope not to interfere in our French and Swedish diplomacy.

Chailang, can you please request your Swedish counterparts to post here their request? 

[chailang]

Just now, Arsilon said:

雪兰，请问你的瑞典同行在这里张贴他们的要求吗？ 

我已经告诉他们了，他们会在晚一些来回复这个线程

[Arsilon]

Just now, chailang said:

I have told them, they would at a later date to reply to this thread

Thank you.

[Bach]

17 minutes ago, chailang said:

协议上写着，港口属于瑞典，即瑞典有权分配他们，这个地区不是法国人的.我们的行为是经过瑞典同意的。

法国人同不同意，或者开不开心，与我们无关.  

我希望法国人不要再干涉我们和瑞典的外交.

 

如果瑞典把它送给大不列颠呢？

[chailang]

Just now, Bach said:

 

如果瑞典把它送给大不列颠呢？

那我们也同意. 因为它是瑞典的

[Bach]

7 minutes ago, chailang said:

那我们也同意. 因为它是瑞典的

丹麦的长期目标是什么？ 你希望在游戏中完成什么？

[chailang]

Just now, Bach said:

丹麦的长期目标是什么？ 你希望在游戏中完成什么？

建立一个中国论坛（正在施工）  

培训更多的新人，教会他们基础的技巧

[Barbancourt]

30 minutes ago, chailang said:

协议上写着，港口属于瑞典，即瑞典有权分配他们，这个地区不是法国人的.我们的行为是经过瑞典同意的。

法国人同不同意，或者开不开心，与我们无关.  

我希望法国人不要再干涉我们和瑞典的外交.

I'm not sure that you understand me.  (or I you)  These regions must become Swedish under the agreement, and I'm arguing that any reasonably expedient path to Swedish control should work for all sides.  It is fine with me if you flip Leewards temporarily, as long Sweden takes Leewards over as soon as possible thereafter.  (but my opinon yields to that of Teutonic)  You/CCCP can help encourage goodwill by not flipping Bovenwinds until Sweden have taken over Leewards.  We should be working to get to the final state of the agreement together, and everyone trying to be "more right" in the short term is getting in the way of long term progress.

 

Edited July 8, 2017 by Barbancourt (rownd)

[chailang]

Just now, Barbancourt (rownd) said:

I'm not sure that you understand me.  (or I you)  These regions must become Swedish under the agreement, and I'm arguing that any reasonably expedient path to that final state should work for all sides.  It is fine with me if you flip Leewards temporarily, as long Sweden takes Leewards over as soon as possible thereafter.  (but my opinon yields to that of Teutonic)  You/CCCP can help encourage goodwill by not flipping Bovenwinds until Sweden have taken over Leewards.  We should be working to get to the final state of the agreement together, and everyone trying to be "more right" in the short term is getting in the way of long term progress.

 

这是个短暂的翻转，我们会把他们给瑞典人.

[Barbancourt]

1 minute ago, chailang said:

这是个短暂的翻转，我们会把他们给瑞典人.

 

That seems reasonable to me, if Teutonic agrees.  I am just one sailor. 

 

[HoneyBaddger]

2 hours ago, Molecularbioguy said:

For all those accusing ICS of choosing clan over nation... look at who's sabotaged the peace deals. Who attacked the Danes the previous two times the truces fell through? Even more, who was happy to gain Conquest Marks from Bridgetown and other port flips the Danes worked to set and then didn't attend? Who, after benefiting from this arrangement (and only after), then promptly attacked the Danes without warning? Who are now looking for any excuse to break the current peace (in this thread alone)? Given the history of attempted peaces falling through, I really wonder if this one will hold. Watch carefully to see who causes it to fall through if it does... I wonder if the guys getting worked up about the Danes taking Swedish territory until the Swedes can take it, have Conquest Mark income up there at stake that they don't want to lose very fast... makes me wonder who puts clan or personal interest above nation. After the first few battles with the Danes, ICS saw how pointless it was, and were willing to take a personal hit to end it, by paying the Danes the Indiamen they asked for to accept a truce. ICS, and not anyone else in France, paid that. Who else in France has been willing to take a personal hit, in exchange for something that in their opinion will help the nation, at cost to themselves?

From what I've seen and heard, ICS has and always has wanted to go after the Brits. The Dutch are fun, kudos to you guys. We saw the war with the Danes as a pointless distraction from the beginning, which distraction prevented France from having the concentrated force necessary to defend Haiti against the Brits. 

I get that people in the nation want different things. A lot want OW PvP, others are more into RvR. A couple traders and economists sailing around. I like Vllad's humorous post about the 4 types of NA players in another thread. Whatever we do to try to work with each other as a nation, we should try to work towards goals that accommodate each playstyle as much as possible.

Here's the big one: if someone disagrees with you, fine. Disagree all you want, argue all you want, I'm all for debate, but when it devolves in endless shouting and toxic personal attacks in nation, that makes people not want to play with you guys anymore. If we can learn to disagree without descending in hate and vitriol and actually act like adults, great. If not, bye.

I thought you guys were going to detect and help the pirates against the treacherous bits, from the looks of things.

[Slamz]

1 hour ago, chailang said:

我再次重复,港口依靠协议不是你法国的   闭嘴

My messages are really for Duncan, BLACK and the free people of PvP-Global who are capable of speaking for themselves.

They are not for worthless 农民 such as yourself, who hides behind Pirates, breaks treaties and cannot control his own guild.

[Landomatic]

53 minutes ago, airborneguy said:

I thought you guys were going to detect and help the pirates against the treacherous bits, from the looks of things.

I'm sorry sir, 'State Secrets' cannot be discussed in such an open forum.  Please contact your local French ambassador for any queries along those lines.

[chailang]

1 hour ago, Slamz said:

My messages are really for Duncan, BLACK and the free people of PvP-Global who are capable of speaking for themselves.

They are not for worthless 农民 such as yourself, who hides behind Pirates, breaks treaties and cannot control his own guild.

所以你在说法国某个clan像农民一样打破协议 不能控制自己的clan？  自黑的不错啊  应该给你奥斯卡

[Koltes]

1 hour ago, Slamz said:

My messages are really for Duncan, BLACK and the free people of PvP-Global who are capable of speaking for themselves.

They are not for worthless 农民 such as yourself, who hides behind Pirates, breaks treaties and cannot control his own guild.

Watch your mouth. We have been in alliance with Danes for over a year and they were the ONLY one that have never broke a deal with us. Never back stabbed us.
Your problem at hand is that both sides cant agree on certain things. Separate issue. Do not label people breaking a deal they have never accepted.
 

[Slamz]

1 minute ago, koltes said:

Watch your mouth. We have been in alliance with Danes for over a year and they were the ONLY one that have never broke a deal with us. Never back stabbed us.
Your problem at hand is that both sides cant agree on certain things. Separate issue. Do not label people breaking a deal they have never accepted.
 

I'll explain how it works and I'll try to use small words so you can follow along.

CCCP looks for weakness and exploits it. They saw weakness in pre-reset France and they saw weakness in ICS. This is when they break agreements and backstab, as they did with us.

They suck up to you because they think you're strong. Best not let the British prove otherwise or you'll be next on the list to get backstabbed by Chailang.