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DeRuyter    724
3 hours ago, Vllad said:

Any modification on the basis of realism will produce horrible game play. Any modification based on balance will not. There is a difference.

snip

Pretty absolutist statement there. Both should be tested and it may be realism is sacrificed for gameplay in some cases, but to throw out any idea to have a realistic combat model for "balance" and you'll end up with an arcade game - World of Sailing Warships anyone.

There is no reason you can't have good game play with a more realistic or limited repair system. Plenty of good battles and gameplay before there was even rum or the doctor perk in the game. Realism in this case is limited repairs on rig, upper spars and some sails, limited hull and leak repairs, and some crew back to represent morale and minor wounds. Guess what that still gets you the player decision making you say unlimited repairs gives you, same essential game play. No real difference except the battles are shorter.

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Vllad    482
32 minutes ago, DeRuyter said:

Guess what that still gets you the player decision making you say unlimited repairs gives you, same essential game play. 

Possibly.

We certainly don't have unlimited repairs now but we certainly need more testing. Their are certainly plenty of killing going on (global) that I see no evidence that repairs are over powered at the moment. 

 

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TommyShelby    3,166

So far i haven't had many fights in the OW that actually gave me a chance at testing Rum/Repairs and their effect on the game. (Though we have previously tested having multiple repairs on cooldowns.)

Now i've had 2 good fights that i would say are relevant to this discussion. 

Rum Fight.
One of them was me in a Surprise against a L'Ocean (Didn't take any screenshots as i was very very busy). 
I took the L'Ocean down to about 400 crew, he then used surgeon and got back to full crew. 
I then took him down to 470 Crew (Approx), once more he used surgeon and got back to full crew.
Third time i got him to 350 Crew (Approx) and again he used Surgeon and got back to full crew.. 
At this point of time we ended up near a fort and as silly as i am, i was not aware that forts don't shoot at AI (I thought the Fort would shoot the AI Santi on "my team".) I ended up sinking because of that. 

However to me that seems silly and out of whack. He can do it every 10 minutes... 
It's just a crutch for people who lack the skill to take out smaller ships. (Hint, had he known what he was doing i would have stood no chance in my little Surprise.)

Repair Fight.
The second fight i actually took some screenies. 1 Endymion vs 3 Surprises (The 4th don't count, he left very early. Twas very honourable of him imo.)

As you can see, i took down 23 Masts in total.
A few top masts, a bunch of middle sections and 7 bottom sections. 
The battle did indeed last over a long time but constantly repairing like this is a bit excessive in my opinion. 

Personally i repaired 3 times. (Sails twice, Hull once to get my cannons back after receiving 2 well placed rakes, 2 times surgeon for a total of 80 crew.) 

The fights just drag out over a much longer period of time now and in my opinion it doesn't make it any more interesting. It just gets a bit boring after a while. 
I believe i read that this kind of repair system was implemented to help the victims of ganks. Now while i wasn't ganked, it was a 1v3. 
The multiple repairs definitely helped the 3 players more than it helped me. No doubt there. 

Conclusion:
- Surgeon is whacky, please balance it one way or another (Plenty of good suggestions made already.)
- Repair Cooldown is way too short (System itself is cool). Make it 20 minutes, or atleast 15. 


 

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koltes    1,982
2 hours ago, TommyShelby said:

Conclusion:
- Surgeon is whacky, please balance it one way or another (Plenty of good suggestions made already.)
- Repair Cooldown is way too short (System itself is cool). Make it 20 minutes, or atleast 15.

Agree.
Repairs should be more like 30 minute timer, but Rigs and Hull be independent from each other so you could use both at the same time, then 30 min cooldown on each separate.
Same for Rum

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Celtiberofrog    568
15 hours ago, Vllad said:

I would bet your 7v2 fight has more to do with the players then it does game design. Let players adapt and test.

Well, check above most post, i'm not the only one to think that repairs should be minimize.

 

15 hours ago, Vllad said:

This is the chess game the attacker and defender must play that will determine the outcome of a fight

This is precisely where it should head for, chess is brillant game with simple rules & factors. The less ship feature effects the more challenging in battle.

Do not forget that there is already a large variety of basic ships with their own features.

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Vllad    482
8 hours ago, Celtiberofrog said:

Well, check above most post, i'm not the only one to think that repairs should be minimize.

I am sure many people agree with you. That doesn't make any of you right. While the repair system could still use some tweaks (like rumming during boarding) I think the system is more than likely very close to how it should be. 

I have no doubt that players will adjust and change tactics to over come the current repair mechanics, I sure as heck know Koltes above gets plenty of kills on Global so the repair mechanics certainly isn't getting in the way of him getting PVP kills. 

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Alado    213

Platform for the abolition of repairs in battle. No repairs in battle, this is not dragon ball and its magical beans B)B)

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Captain Lust    482
On 28.7.2017 at 10:47 PM, TommyShelby said:

So far i haven't had many fights in the OW that actually gave me a chance at testing Rum/Repairs and their effect on the game. (Though we have previously tested having multiple repairs on cooldowns.)

Now i've had 2 good fights that i would say are relevant to this discussion. 

Rum Fight.
One of them was me in a Surprise against a L'Ocean (Didn't take any screenshots as i was very very busy). 
I took the L'Ocean down to about 400 crew, he then used surgeon and got back to full crew. 
I then took him down to 470 Crew (Approx), once more he used surgeon and got back to full crew.
Third time i got him to 350 Crew (Approx) and again he used Surgeon and got back to full crew.. 
At this point of time we ended up near a fort and as silly as i am, i was not aware that forts don't shoot at AI (I thought the Fort would shoot the AI Santi on "my team".) I ended up sinking because of that. 

However to me that seems silly and out of whack. He can do it every 10 minutes... 
It's just a crutch for people who lack the skill to take out smaller ships. (Hint, had he known what he was doing i would have stood no chance in my little Surprise.)

Repair Fight.
The second fight i actually took some screenies. 1 Endymion vs 3 Surprises (The 4th don't count, he left very early. Twas very honourable of him imo.)

As you can see, i took down 23 Masts in total.
A few top masts, a bunch of middle sections and 7 bottom sections. 
The battle did indeed last over a long time but constantly repairing like this is a bit excessive in my opinion. 

Personally i repaired 3 times. (Sails twice, Hull once to get my cannons back after receiving 2 well placed rakes, 2 times surgeon for a total of 80 crew.) 

The fights just drag out over a much longer period of time now and in my opinion it doesn't make it any more interesting. It just gets a bit boring after a while. 
I believe i read that this kind of repair system was implemented to help the victims of ganks. Now while i wasn't ganked, it was a 1v3. 
The multiple repairs definitely helped the 3 players more than it helped me. No doubt there. 

Conclusion:
- Surgeon is whacky, please balance it one way or another (Plenty of good suggestions made already.)
- Repair Cooldown is way too short (System itself is cool). Make it 20 minutes, or atleast 15. 

Kind of what i was saying / thinking all along... I'd rather see 1 rep hull/sail/crew per battle ( more realistic and less room for error ) but much longer cd would be ok too i guess...

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TommyShelby    3,166
17 hours ago, Vllad said:

I am sure many people agree with you. That doesn't make any of you right. While the repair system could still use some tweaks (like rumming during boarding) I think the system is more than likely very close to how it should be. 

I have no doubt that players will adjust and change tactics to over come the current repair mechanics, I sure as heck know Koltes above gets plenty of kills on Global so the repair mechanics certainly isn't getting in the way of him getting PVP kills. 

And what makes you right? :)

- It is not that we can't adapt and change tactics... It is the fact that we think being able to repair every 10 minutes is a bad mechanic and actually accomplishes the exact opposite of what the goal of implementing it was.

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Captain Lust    482
17 hours ago, Vllad said:

I think the system is more than likely very close to how it should be.

World of Warships is also very close to how it should be... for a arcade game. But at least you dont have to spend your whole day in a match there because it ends after 15 min even if people repair endlessly. Actually the repair mechanic is more arcady in NA now, since in WOWS it actually has limited repairs ( i think you get 3 per battle? and only a limited amount of hp.... last time i checked on it anyways...)

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Vllad    482
4 hours ago, TommyShelby said:

And what makes you right? :)

This is what I am seeing in my pvp fights. 

F34EE0F4C330AD250D7FB6D17D6136FCE5E54878

 

These guys died with tons of repairs on them in an OW pvp fight. 

France on Global is killing 20 to 40 ships a day and repairs aren't saving anyone. I could list 10 more screen shots just like this. Since a ton of people are dying on global I think it is more likely players are just not executing on there fights like they should or they are asking the developers to fix there own short comings.    

This tells me there mechanics are close to being dead on where it should be. 

I am absolutely no one special in pvp and if I am not having trouble with repairs no one else should be having trouble either. Adapt and overcome. 

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TommyShelby    3,166

I ask again.
What is it that makes your opinion more right than that of others?

And again, you are missing the point of what is being said. 

The repairs on cooldown were implemented (afaik) so that people being ganked had a better chance at surviving/winning. However in my experience it does the opposite, it actually helps the gankers. Not only that but unlimited repairs with 10 min cooldown also makes most fights take longer time.

So the system is not working as intended right?. 


Like is said, i have no problem adapting to this. As you can see from my Screenshots i'm doing just fine despite the fact that i think 10 min cooldown is too short. 
Furthermore you are saying; "Its close to being perfect but it could maybe use a few tweaks". 
The funny thing is, that is exactly what i am suggesting... Tweaks.. 

Instead of 10 min cooldown make it 20 minutes. 

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HarryButpain    77

After reading this thread I agree with the following conclusions, If you shoot top masts down, ship should remain in that state. Game should count a % of sailors dead and wounded. The % of wounded can be brought back into battle through the use of rum. There should also be diminishing returns the more you make use of ship repairs. Like when you rep your hull or sails again and again you eventually shouldn't be able to see much benefit from using your repairs..

I see where @Vllad is coming from but there should be more to a fight than a 'who has the most repair kits'..

Edited by HarryButpain

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CaptVonGunn    322
18 hours ago, Vllad said:

This is what I am seeing in my pvp fights. 

F34EE0F4C330AD250D7FB6D17D6136FCE5E54878

 

These guys died with tons of repairs on them in an OW pvp fight. 

France on Global is killing 20 to 40 ships a day and repairs aren't saving anyone. I could list 10 more screen shots just like this. Since a ton of people are dying on global I think it is more likely players are just not executing on there fights like they should or they are asking the developers to fix there own short comings.    

This tells me there mechanics are close to being dead on where it should be. 

I am absolutely no one special in pvp and if I am not having trouble with repairs no one else should be having trouble either. Adapt and overcome. 

Yes in Massed battles where you can focus fire and over whelm a target... In small battles it is nuts how long they go on.  You lose a Mast you should NEVER get it back in combat.. that is just silly.,.... You lose 50% or more of your sails.. Poof 2 min you get most of it back...  If your going to have unlimited repairs.. split them again and put a 20-30 min cool down on them and make it semi realistic.. I mean this is supposed to be a hardcore Fighting Sail sim

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Vllad    482
21 hours ago, HarryButpain said:

After reading this thread I agree with the following conclusions, If you shoot top masts down, ship should remain in that state.

The game has already been at this state before and it was not only hated but it simply didn't work for PVP. This has already been tested so I doubt this is going backwards. For those the believe that once you lose mast they should remain in that state you better get used to fighting every battle with zero mast. That is how all fights will de-evolve.

This will also eliminate any use for smaller ships in PVP. With the current repair system smaller ships can kill larger ones but that will all end if you share Harry's opinion. This is how you end up with only 3 ships being sailed in open water and eliminates any diversity in combat.

Basically this has already been tested and is one of the reasons we are in the state we are today.

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Vllad    482
5 hours ago, CaptVonGunn said:

Yes in Massed battles where you can focus fire and over whelm a target... In small battles it is nuts how long they go on.  

I am not having any trouble killing people solo and based on your response neither are you. You just don't like that it takes so long. Given how much more difficult it is to get quality ships combined with the grind the battles should be long. I would give people there money's worth.

People are dying every day so if the new repair system was as bad as all of you make it sound our new combat clerk chat window would be pretty empty. I know on Global it sure isn't empty. Why is that?

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HarryButpain    77
On 7/31/2017 at 4:14 PM, Vllad said:

The game has already been at this state before and it was not only hated but it simply didn't work for PVP. This has already been tested so I doubt this is going backwards. For those the believe that once you lose mast they should remain in that state you better get used to fighting every battle with zero mast. That is how all fights will de-evolve.

This will also eliminate any use for smaller ships in PVP. With the current repair system smaller ships can kill larger ones but that will all end if you share Harry's opinion. This is how you end up with only 3 ships being sailed in open water and eliminates any diversity in combat.

Basically this has already been tested and is one of the reasons we are in the state we are today.

I would call 'zero masts' a profound exaggeration, mate. I mean, we're currently back to steel bottom mast sections, right? Would it perhaps be agreeable to you to add mast repairs as an additional repair option that is separated from rig repairs? With the new 'brace' command in mind where most ship functions become locked once 'brace' is active, perhaps a ship would automatically slow down to be able to add new mast parts ( I think someone suggested that earlier in this thread alrdy). 

While all of what I say would make the game more realistic, I do agree with you that a lot of ppl still sink according to the new combat news channel.

Then again, you can only plug a certain amount of holes before your hull is entirely replaced by planks that were meant to stop water from entering. Just as you cannot bring back the dead, which is why there should be wounded and dead crewman who cannot be brought back to life. That is what you call diminishing returns. 

I just don't like that silly little game where the one with the biggest cargo hold to store reps wins..

Edited by HarryButpain

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TommyShelby    3,166
5 hours ago, Vllad said:

The game has already been at this state before and it was not only hated but it simply didn't work for PVP.

You think it didn't. A ton of other people think it did... 

The game has already been at this state with multiple repairs for everything and oh my, your not going to believe what i'm about to tell you... IT DID NOT WORK... 

Afaik (I could be misremembering) multiple repairs became a thing so that people who were outnumbered/being ganked would have a better chance. 
Funny thing is it works the exact opposite way. The team with more players gets exponentially more repairs and can alternate between who is taking damage all the time. This makes life 10 times harder for the player(s) who are outnumbered. 
 

 

5 hours ago, Vllad said:

People are dying every day so if the new repair system was as bad as all of you make it sound our new combat clerk chat window would be pretty empty. I know on Global it sure isn't empty. Why is that?

Once again, you are missing the point..

Honestly, at this point of time i'm kind of giving up on having a good discussion with you because no matter what anyone says your response will, directly or indirectly, be the same; "You are wrong, i am right". 

I know this comment is to some extend the exact same (A "You are wrong, i am right" type of comment), this serves a purpose, a purpose i'm sure you will be able to figure out on your own. :)

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Vllad    482
2 hours ago, HarryButpain said:

I would call 'zero masts' a profound exaggeration, mate.

A year ago February I had zero mast fights all the time where two ships sail around at 4kn's trying to murder each other. It may not be the exaggeration you think it is. In-fact most of the pvp was mostly mast to mast fights in Feb of 2016. The one who could destroy the others mast first typically won the fight which pretty much made every fight a mast to mast affair.

It is the mast to mast fighting that lead to some of the penetration rules we have so a bunch of 6 lb guns couldn't de-mast 1st rates. Even if they could what NA is trying to avoid is making someone a floating rock so someone could sit behind or at an angle just shooting away while an individual without mast could do nothing.  

The suggestions you are making have already been tested. It doesn't work.

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TommyShelby    3,166
2 minutes ago, Vllad said:

The suggestions you are making have already been tested. It doesn't work.

The system you support have already been tested (Multiple repairs). It doesn't work. 


20 minute cooldown on repairs atleast. This will make the current system 200 times better. 10 minutes is just way too short.

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HarryButpain    77

yea, u desperately try to get someone's crew killed, and he simply hits rum rep and bam, back to square one. That's completely and utterly frustrating, so ye, pls at least increase rep timers if any other solution was alrdy tested..

Edited by HarryButpain

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TommyShelby    3,166
Just now, HarryButpain said:

yea, u desperately try to get someone's crew killed, and he simply hits rum rep and bam, back to square one. That's completely and utterly frustrating, so ye, pls at least increase rep timers if any other solution was alrdy tested..

Other solutions were tested. (Like 1 repair for hull, 1 for sails)

Funny thing is no-one really complained about that yet it was changed to something that was tested already (multiple repairs for either thing) and changed because it was bad for gameplay. :P 

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Vllad    482
6 minutes ago, TommyShelby said:

Funny thing is no-one really complained about that yet it was changed to something that was tested already (multiple repairs for either thing) and changed because it was bad for gameplay. :P 

How soon we forget. Let me provide some of the debates we had just in the Suggestion section alone.

The bottom line is regardless of our difference in opinion the repair issue has never been less debated than it is now. Short of Rum having a repair cap on crew or being used in boarding this is the least debated system they have ever had.

The mast situation got so bad that people were asking for ships to move without mast, Yes we actually tested that as well. Sailing ships that can sail, without sails!

 

 

 

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CaptVonGunn    322
14 hours ago, Vllad said:

I am not having any trouble killing people solo and based on your response neither are you. You just don't like that it takes so long. Given how much more difficult it is to get quality ships combined with the grind the battles should be long. I would give people there money's worth.

People are dying every day so if the new repair system was as bad as all of you make it sound our new combat clerk chat window would be pretty empty. I know on Global it sure isn't empty. Why is that?

No I dont like that they sold this game as a Hard core sim and them have cratered to the cry babies..

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Aegir    1,671
19 hours ago, TommyShelby said:

Other solutions were tested. (Like 1 repair for hull, 1 for sails)

Funny thing is no-one really complained about that yet it was changed to something that was tested already (multiple repairs for either thing) and changed because it was bad for gameplay. :P 

Saw more threads about removing repairs altogether than giving us dozens of repairs.

When they mentioned it at first, and the ability to salvage repairs from sunken wrecks, it sounded like it was only going to allow people to repair by disengaging from the battle entirely (e.g. interrupted by damage, and/or having to stop entirely) and spending time away from the fray to get fixed. Not magically reviving the dead, replacing masts and building a new hull every few minutes mid-fight.

Absolutely hate the current system, makes for so many stupid fights.

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