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JG14_Cuzn    169
10 minutes ago, rediii said:

That just proves that the current use of RUM is correct.

Something is wrong inside the game if a frigate is able to kill a 1st rate. I don't think it would go the same way IRL ;) 

Of course it would.  

Ive never attacked a 1st rate alone    

Its always 3-5 of us in smaller ships  

-lets not divert this thread: 

all we are saying is Rum is overmodelled  

some like it's Voodoo ability to re-animate pulverized sailors... others think it should be limited  

for my reasoning I think it should be limited  

 

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Vllad    482
14 minutes ago, JG14_Cuzn said:

i sailing mostly smaller ships my only option is stern camping. 

I bet you have yet to encounter a 1st rate in a smaller ship?? 

I also bet once you do you'll change your mind ;)

 

unless of course you are the 1st rate ;) 

 

I live in a Cerb and Pickle for the reasons you state above however I have never run into the problem you experienced. I have never run into anyone who can out repair his crew faster than I can kill them. I don't doubt that it might be possible but carrying 3300 rum to accomplish I can live with. Carrying that much rum comes with severe penalties for doing so.

I see it as no different than someone who runs around on a ship with Marines, Grogs and every other boarding mod. If you are fitted to board and attack a guy with longs who never lets you get close I don't think they should come to this board complaining that you couldn't fight or sail as well as the ship that out fought you.

Instead of looking to the Dev's to adjust things I would suggest as players we adjust.

I would ask all of you why is it you all want the developers to mod the tactics right out of the game? This sounds like a player problem not a developer problem.

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JG14_Cuzn    169
3 minutes ago, Vllad said:

I live in a Cerb and Pickle for the reasons you state above however I have never run into the problem you experienced. I have never run into anyone who can out repair his crew faster than I can kill them. I don't doubt that it might be possible but carrying 3300 rum to accomplish I can live with. Carrying that much rum comes with severe penalties for doing so.

I see it as no different than someone who runs around on a ship with Marines, Grogs and every other boarding mod. If you are fitted to board and attack a guy with longs who never lets you get close I don't think they should come to this board complaining that you couldn't fight or sail as well as the ship that out fought you.

Instead of looking to the Dev's to adjust things I would suggest as players we adjust.

I would ask all of you why is it you all want the developers to mod the tactics right out of the game? This sounds like a player problem not a developer problem.

So you're good with re-animating roughly 900 crew members on a Santi?

 

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Vllad    482
9 minutes ago, JG14_Cuzn said:

So you're good with re-animating roughly 900 crew members on a Santi?

 

I am. I am good with someone re-animating 5000 crew if they so wish. If they wish to carry that much rum and it takes you that long to kill enough crew to board him then that tells me three things given the current mechanics.

1. That Santi is a one trick pony. He is just built for just repelling boarders and not the war machine he was built for. Let the other war machines deal with him. Its not like he is much of a threat to our small ships. If he is carrying that much Rum and runs into a better equipped war machine he will someday regret that decision.

2. You didn't bring the right tool to crack this nut.

3. You just cost him a pretty penny making him eat all that rum. Sounds like a win to me.

 

I have zero problem allowing the behemoth ships having protection from the speedy little ships that can stern camp them all day. As long as it makes them these one trick ponies that sounds fair to me. It is actually sound game design to purposely put aspects in their product like this and I commend the Developers for it. Next time you run into Captain John Smith and you know how he runs his rig I have no doubt you will try to employ a different strategy.

For NA to be a quality combat game we need more player variables not less.

The reason so many games end up with one single meta is because most players scream at developers to get rid of the things that can create multiple ways to play. Reducing repairs means reducing the sheer number of tactics that can be employed in the game. That makes NA worse not better.

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Intrepido    2,182

Im getting very tired with the new system of repairs.

People are just abusing it a lot. In a battle the guy that has more speed and repairs usually end winning or leaving the battle when he see that cant win.

Infinite repairs during a battle and this low CD between repairs are killing my battles. I have much less fun with the current battles than before. Its disheartening to see how an enemy is almost dead but he manage to come back with almost a new ship every 8 minutes (repairs usually takes to complete 2 mins).

 

To sum up, there are now 2 problems:

The crazy speed meta

The low CD of repairs

 

To fix this:

Less upgrades of speed which you can stack or a limitation of bonus to speed.

An increase of repair CD to 12-15 mins.

A limitation to the use of repairs. Maybe be able to repair 3 times at max.

 

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Hodo    2,252

There are a lot of cartoon magic features in this game that we tend to overlook.

Ships can slam into each other at 10+kn speeds head on and not turn into sinking wrecks filled with broken and shaken sailors.  

We can magically refill are crew when we leave battle and add crew to ships we capture from no where... because we have them in our bank?   

We magically can fix guns that have been shot out in battle.  LOL

We have an unlimited supply of powder and shot for every gun on the ship and have to never worry about food or fresh water on the ship.

We can magically fix a rudder that has been shot out without using parts.

We can fix pumps that have been shot out.

We can replace injured or dead crew with rum... yep zombies people.

We never have to worry about wind strength in battle.

We can sail around at full sails in battle because sail load on mast has no effect on the strength of the mast when it takes damage.  Or the amount of crew needed to operate those sails in battle.  So no point in battle sails at all.

Sails dont catch fire.

Crew dont get paid.

 

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Slamz    1,704

I would be tempted to ponder a Star Wars Galaxies concept: "black bar damage" (I don't remember what they actually called it).

In SWG you could basically take two types of damage: regular damage, which could be healed on the fly through normal RPG methods, and "black bar damage" which represented a more semi-permanent degradation of your stats which could only be cured outside of combat.

In Naval Action, it could look something like this....

You take semi-permanent damage based on the difference of raw armor thickness and shot damage. So a shot that deals 65 damage and hits planking that's 60 inches thick (armor degradation being ignored for this calculation so 60" is always treated as 60") does 5 points of "black bar damage". This damage cannot be repaired in combat and is represented by a black bar (or maybe a red shaded region) on your damage meter.

Basically this will mean that big cannons versus small ships deals a ton of un-repairable damage. And shots taken from close up deals more un-repairable damage than shots from far away.

Sails could be special: sail damage is always repairable while mast damage can create black bar damage. After breaking someone's main mast, maybe they can only ever get back to 90%.

This black bar damage can be repaired in a port or on the OW but not in a combat instance.

So in a long fight you could start see things getting dire as ships still have repairs but their ability to get back to full health is getting crippled by this semi-permanent damage.

 

This all seems rather optional to me but could add a little more depth to how damage is approached in battle and how long battles would realistically turn into cripple-fights.

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Cecil Selous    337

Just encountered the crew replenishing during boarding for the first time. Boy is this effective if your enemy (in this case this was me :D) hello kittys up big time (for example causing the unwanted boarding himself because of stupidity and pressing the wrong keys and desperately trying to do an emergency repair instead of using the surgeon too :rolleyes:) Man I so deserved this embarrassing defeat.                                       

 I don't know if many players, especially the new ones and the ones who doen't read the forums, know that you can repair your ship or heal your crew during boarding but if this is a wanted feature than the ui should at least show it correctly to avoid confusion.

Personally I think you shoudln't be able to do this during boarding. I wouldn't call it unfair because everybody can do this but it is implausible that your crew repairs the ship while there is a bloody melee going on.

Also I am with Prater and a few others. Only a percentage of the casualties should be healed so that you can't get your whole crew back as if nobody was mortally wounded. Some should stay dead.

The fact that we use rum is just a gimmick imho. Devs can also call it bandages or whatever. The mechanics of the feature itself are good. It wasn't uncommon that lightly wounded sailors went under deck, got patched up and returned to the battle. But this also includes that little Jimmy who got cut in half by a cannonball shouldn't be able to do the same.

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shr84    3
On 11.7.2017 at 4:24 PM, Benedict Ahhnold said:

And in fairness, people who just grind NPC fleets to level up may be not much better at PVP, either. PVP is so different than playing vs AI, the only way to get good at it, is to do it.

With that said, having a "gold faucet" turned off does help keep inflation for everything else somewhat more under control. We're a month plus post wipe and there are lots of 1st rates in the world, but the low level ships are now much more affordable than in the past. In fact, as more and more crafters get up to speed, there is good price competition at the low end, making decent ships stay pretty affordable. I actually think that side of things is working reasonably well, though I get that it takes a few hours for new players to figure out how to acquire a steady income.

just do it? LOL

its nearly impossible to get into pvp when you not own a 2nd or 1st rate xD

Over are the days of entertaining 40 ships mixed fleets battles, OW is just a lame singleplayer vs bots experience

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Liq    3,250
5 minutes ago, shr84 said:

just do it? LOL

its nearly impossible to get into pvp when you not own a 2nd or 1st rate xD

Over are the days of entertaining 40 ships mixed fleets battles, OW is just a lame singleplayer vs bots experience

giphy.gif

(the album needs updating tho)

 

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CaptVonGunn    322

Things like this are why if we are stuck with it.. The Repair and re crew needs to take place across the entire cool Down time.. Not in just  minute or so

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I don't like how repairs et rum works, but it works well and result in very good fights with more uncertainty. Before that, a fight was nearly decided at the moment of the tag: focus on sails & masts until he wasted his repairs, then stern rake crew to death. Now with thoses options fights needs more dedication & focus and you less loose your ship in pvp.

If reviving dead crew is unrealistic, i read it myself as a kind of crew morale gestion abstraction: a stern rake would never result in 120 colddead men, but if you consider "crew loss" as "incapacited men" regrouping "dead, injured, stunned, choked, routed" crewmen, i can see it. Then replace "doctor" by "boatswain" or "officer" + doctor  re-forming these men, via orders+alcool+bandages tada ! Here is your rum consumption !

 

 

The only change i would do would be to stop/reset  repairs/doctor action  when you take an amount of damages to what you are trying to repair, i mean, if you repair your hull but while doing so the enemy continue to hit you hard on the hull, this should stop the repair order, that way, you have to retreat a little before engaging in repairs, or time it with opportunism so repairs are not used to nullify damages for an amount of time.

 

 

 

Edited by Baptiste Gallouédec

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CaptVonGunn    322

Yes that many didn't just die in the rake.. But since there is Zero Morale in the game getting back all of them is just goofy just like full repairs.. Combat repairs would never get you to full starting quality.. hell even after battle repairs might not. That is way limited total repairs say 2 of each as they are now. Or unlimited but with diminishing returns...  ie 75% back form original loss. Then when you lose more 75% back of the new losses not the original ect... 

  Masts should NEVER be repaired beyond a spar with maybe 12 the sail they had on.. 

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Celtiberofrog    568

Dear Dev's

Experimenting the current repairs mechanics:

 

PVP situation

==> 2 Victories  Vs 3 constitutions, 2 Bellonas, 1 l'Ocean & 1 Victory

==> The 2 Victories are full of repairs (capable to repair full crew, structure & sails till the end of battle, about 3 to 4 times)

==> The Victories are most probably with several upgrade slots, the players are skilled, the ships are fast, agile & resistant.

==> The hunting players are not a bunch of newbies, but do not have, for sure, ships as "boosted" as the 2 Victo's (those were tagged out of a PB, so elite ships)

PVP Outcome 

==> These 2 Victories have lasted full battle time and happily escaped

 

QUESTION:

How the hell can this be possible if NA is supposed to become somehow "realistic"

Whatever the former Wipes, such a situation would have ended with a defeat of those Victories

CONCLUSION:

Today's repairs mechanic are offering unrealistic issues, it highly reduce the chance to win a pvp with elite ships.

Without possibilty of rewards in pvp after hard & long work the frustration will grow up

to be noticed, every hunters made many damages to these Vistories (sails, structures, cannon & crew), but ZERO rewards ! (since no sinking)... 

 

 

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Celtiberofrog    568

Possible issues to reduce these unrealistic effects:

 

- Increase substantially the weight of the repairs with important ship speed penalty

or

- set a maximum of repairs number per ships rate 

or

- increase the cooldown for second repairs operation, exponantialy for third etc... 

or

- increase the crew requirement when repairing, with high penalty of ship gunnery & rigging meanwhile (typicaly, a ship under repair can be idealy boarded)

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mikawa    319

i am against these upgrades who makes rum repair 1 crew per second .. this is silly & unrealistic

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Vllad    482
4 hours ago, Celtiberofrog said:

How the hell can this be possible if NA is supposed to become somehow "realistic"

Realism sucks. You are going to have to come to grips that an MMO has to sacrifice realism for the sake of game balance. Your complaint might be valid if this were a single player sim but NA isn't a sim.

If you want to make an argument that repairs are unbalanced then make that argument but making any argument that a mechanic isn't realistic and shouldn't exist is just inviting horrible game play. If you are so gung ho on realism where is your suggestions on longer sailing times, scurvy, constant crew attrition, no access to 4th rates or higher without being a Naval Officer and a ton of other realistic options that would just make the game worse? Put your money where your mouth is and start asking for the horrible realism as well.   

I don't care if they have Elven fairies sprinkling fairy dust on your sails, if it improves the quality of play in the game they should do it.

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Celtiberofrog    568
6 minutes ago, Vllad said:

Realism sucks. You are going to have to come to grips that an MMO has to sacrifice realism for the sake of game balance. Your complaint might be valid if this were a single player sim but NA isn't a sim.

If you want to make an argument that repairs are unbalanced then make that argument but making any argument that a mechanic isn't realistic and shouldn't exist is just inviting horrible game play. If you are so gung ho on realism where is your suggestions on longer sailing times, scurvy, constant crew attrition, no access to 4th rates or higher without being a Naval Officer and a ton of other realistic options that would just make the game worse? Put your money where your mouth is and start asking for the horrible realism as well.   

I don't care if they have Elven fairies sprinkling fairy dust on your sails, if it improves the quality of play in the game they should do it.

Had you been playing in previous adjustments, you'd know that there have been better compromises regarding this matter.

Thing is that Dev's are just testing lots of different issues, the repair issue will be modified hopefully.

The fact today is too easy repairs increase the chance of the players who wanna escape as well as decrease the chance of the hunters to be successful, the case I described shows the unbalance effect of these features.

The modifications I humblely suggested above would not produce "horrible game play" as you said.

Please tell me what's the good point of having such an important option to repair several time the ship & crew within a single battle ? knowing that the larger is the ship the more repairs it can carry with little penalty

How can you approve those 7 warships could not sink 2 Victories in a 1,5 hour fight ?   

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Vllad    482
22 minutes ago, Celtiberofrog said:

The modifications I humblely suggested above would not produce "horrible game play" as you said.

Any modification on the basis of realism will produce horrible game play. Any modification based on balance will not. There is a difference.

23 minutes ago, Celtiberofrog said:

Please tell me what's the good point of having such an important option to repair several time the ship & crew within a single battle ? knowing that the larger is the ship the more repairs it can carry with little penalty

How can you approve those 7 warships could not sink 2 Victories in a 1,5 hour fight ?   

I can approve of these things on the basis of three factors.

1. Less bloody fights in the world of 1 dura's ships and having the PVP actually be harder to actually get kills is a good thing for game play. It will create more PVP when players stop being afraid to take their ships out and fight with them. There will be less substantial outcomes but I don't see that as a bad thing. If both sides decide to retreat after a long battle so be it. If one continues the pursuit the player most prepared will eventually win. Carrying all those repairs already comes with substantial penalties in speed which severely limits the performance of the said ships. I think we need more testing before increasing the weight.

2. NA is severely lacking in player tactics in combat. The current repair model adds more depth to the combat. We need more not less tactical choices for players.

3. I haven't seen a video of that 90 minute fight where 7 warships didn't sink 2 Victories. For all we know those 7 ships played the whole combat incorrectly. I have had no problem killing larger ships then myself with the current mechanics, I have had no problem killing MUCH larger ships than myself with my clan with me. Are you so sure those 7 people chose correctly how to take on those 2 Victories? Maybe they need to re-think their tactics? Maybe they didn't bring the right tools for the job? The other question is just how easy should it be for 7 small ships to kill multiple line ships? Maybe you need to suggest exactly what is should take?

 

Ultimately I see your suggestions as asking the developers to fix something that very well could be caused by bad tactics on the players side rather than bad game design. Is it entirely possible the 2 Victories just out played those 7 other players?

The question you have to ask yourself is if that 7v2 was fought 10 more times with different tactics would the outcome be different? If the answer is yes than maybe the game design is perfect the way it is.

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Hodo    2,252
On 7/20/2017 at 6:07 PM, Slamz said:

I would be tempted to ponder a Star Wars Galaxies concept: "black bar damage" (I don't remember what they actually called it).

In SWG you could basically take two types of damage: regular damage, which could be healed on the fly through normal RPG methods, and "black bar damage" which represented a more semi-permanent degradation of your stats which could only be cured outside of combat.

In Naval Action, it could look something like this....

You take semi-permanent damage based on the difference of raw armor thickness and shot damage. So a shot that deals 65 damage and hits planking that's 60 inches thick (armor degradation being ignored for this calculation so 60" is always treated as 60") does 5 points of "black bar damage". This damage cannot be repaired in combat and is represented by a black bar (or maybe a red shaded region) on your damage meter.

Basically this will mean that big cannons versus small ships deals a ton of un-repairable damage. And shots taken from close up deals more un-repairable damage than shots from far away.

Sails could be special: sail damage is always repairable while mast damage can create black bar damage. After breaking someone's main mast, maybe they can only ever get back to 90%.

This black bar damage can be repaired in a port or on the OW but not in a combat instance.

So in a long fight you could start see things getting dire as ships still have repairs but their ability to get back to full health is getting crippled by this semi-permanent damage.

 

This all seems rather optional to me but could add a little more depth to how damage is approached in battle and how long battles would realistically turn into cripple-fights.

The "Black bar" was battle fatigue and wounds.  

Wounds affected your hard attributes, battle fatigue effected all of your mental attributes. 

Wounds could only be healed by a doctor, and battle fatigue could only be healed by an entertainer.  

I know this because I still play SWG-EMU.  

 

I would love to see ship fatigue take into account.  Where a ship will eventually lose structure due to long term damage.

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Hodo    2,252
On 7/26/2017 at 3:35 PM, shr84 said:

just do it? LOL

its nearly impossible to get into pvp when you not own a 2nd or 1st rate xD

Over are the days of entertaining 40 ships mixed fleets battles, OW is just a lame singleplayer vs bots experience

LOL you have to be trolling.

I can pvp quite well in a 7th rate.

 

Oh and your sig, what game is that from, looks like the old Roma Victor graphics.

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Celtiberofrog    568
1 hour ago, Vllad said:

The current repair model adds more depth to the combat. We need more not less tactical choices for players

My thinking is precisely the contrary to reach a better game with awesome PVP's

The less effects from upgrades, repairs etc... the better should be the fights.

Eventually, if we had ships with only "light" differences (rates to rates) the fights will be more balanced, only skills will mostly make differences between players.

As a result, chances to get good ships from casual players would be easier, (no needs to spend hours to get those upgrades that make currently the difference) AND certainly more players interest.

Repairs do not reflect any skill (or tactic!!), the more you got the higher is your chance not to sink. 

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Vllad    482
1 hour ago, Celtiberofrog said:

The less effects from upgrades, repairs etc... the better should be the fights.

Eventually, if we had ships with only "light" differences (rates to rates) the fights will be more balanced, only skills will mostly make differences between players.

Eventually if we only had light differences then eventually your thoughts might be more accurate. However today we don't have light differences. Today we have very extreme differences in ships. 

Designing a game around just pure player skill is a huge mistake. 5% of your players will be really having fun while the rest will not. Player skill needs to play a part but ONLY a part in combat. You need mechanics that equal the playing field for everyone. Having tactical choices impact even the most skilled player will enhance the player experience. A lower skilled player has to be able to compete with a higher skill player otherwise NA will significantly reduce who actually plays the game. Would you Celtigerofrog actually continue to play a game where you were the bottom 5% in skill compared to everyone else? Someone has to be the bottom 5%. 

1 hour ago, Celtiberofrog said:

Repairs do not reflect any skill (or tactic!!), the more you got the higher is your chance not to sink. 

The more you have also puts you more at risk at being sunk and increases the chances that they will sink no one themselves. Rig and Hull repairs are on the same timer. You can't repair both equally as well. Their is more than one way to skin this cat. If you can't maneuver you can be stern camped and boarded, you could have your cannon's being destroyed in mass, you could be stopped dead if you can't run, their are many factors that come into play. The attacker can put the defender in a position to make very difficult choices.

The attacker must make tactical decisions on how to put the ship in a position to make a choice that is to their advantage. The defender must do the same. You can out damage hull repairs, you can out damage rig repairs and you can do both. This is the chess game the attacker and defender must play that will determine the outcome of a fight. Current repair mechanics achieve this. 

The old repair 5% with life time cool downs made them useless and that meant the bigger ship always won. In todays world large ships no longer are guaranteed a victory simply because of the new repair mechanics. 

This also adds new meta's and new choices for players. If the game was played your way there would be one meta. Speed. Everyone would have the same ship with the same upgrades. That means all combat would go one single way. BORING!

Speed meta's maybe can't deal with Repair meta's who in turn create more Penetration meta's and DPS meta's. Hence the game is enhanced by creating more ways to build your ships and fight. 

I would bet your 7v2 fight has more to do with the players then it does game design. Let players adapt and test. 

 

Edited by Vllad

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