Why PVP Global USA Fails

[Saint George]

Every time the USA has a defeat or some clan doesn't get everything their way, USA Nation chat always results in this kind of childish non-sense for the next two hours while its enemy's continue to advance. May be to time to try something other than name calling and finger pointing.

[Sir Texas Sir]

I switched over to pirates over a year ago and it hasn't changed from when I was US back than.  US biggest enemy isn't the pirates or other nations. It is themselves.   Ya'll are so toxic to each other and self destructive at times.  We never try to recruit folks, but they come on there own after getting fed up with things in the nation.  That is why many of our ex-nationals are from the US.   I'll be honest to say that the best way for ya'll to get better is to stop bickering and work together.  Ya'll where once the largest pop nation.  Though I think with the patch ya'll moved to the number two spot with Pirates right behind ya'll.   The biggest issue is ya'll have so many carebears and those are the guys that lead.  The ones that don't PvP or only show up for fights where they have numbers and a sure win.   There was no reason for ya'll to pull out of that Port Battle last night and ya'll didn't have to call your British Overlords to help.  Ya'll had over 40 ships out side of Savanna and in the PB.  Even got a few of us split and keeped out of the port battle which we give ya'll props for.   

Maybe it's time ya'll stop repeating the same things over and over and try something new.   Stop being dependent on the Brits for one.   Stop listening to the old claners that are more PvErs and never leave ports.  Let some of the new guys step up and lead.  Some of our best players are the new guys not the old farts that can be stubborn in there ways.   Take this time to rebuild and get strong.  Pick your targets wisely.

We where actually hoping to see a good strong US and British fight each other, but as soon as one clan bows down to them ya'll folded up.  We have no plans to roll US so don't be fear of that.  Just know we won't put up with you trying to flip our ports either.   We just want to keep things to fun OW PvP.  Take a step back and try to rebuild.  It's still early in the game that ya'll can rebuild and come back stronger.  

Until things changes most are only going to see ya'll as a British Colonist now cause that is exactly how we see the US and there dealings with the Brits so far.  

Other wise best of luck to you all.

[Daguse]

My understanding is that prior to the split the US nation ran the PVP 2 server, and clans could do whatever they wanted. Times have changed and they must now work as a nation. However, there are several hot heads that would much rather watch the world burn than even get on TS and talk to each other.  It's all kinda sad, but this is a game of adapt or die. 

[Teutonic]

51 minutes ago, Daguse said:

My understanding is that prior to the split the US nation ran the PVP 2 server, and clans could do whatever they wanted. Times have changed and they must now work as a nation. However, there are several hot heads that would much rather watch the world burn than even get on TS and talk to each other.  It's all kinda sad, but this is a game of adapt or die. 

I would argue that the US didn't solely run the server, what happened was because of the alliance mechanic and the US and brits allying, they were able to hold half the map without fail. When things got tough, they knew their enemies would get bored so they could always just take it back.

It's different now and without the alliance mechanic you can only really rely on those within the nation. But the same people lead the same groups with the same mentality from before. Sorry guys, it doesn't work that way anymore.

This isn't just a US nation problem and it can't just be fixed by telling them "to work together." All nations have groups who don't agree, the unfortunate realization is that the smaller the pop you have, the bigger the problem it is.

Then again, running from a port battle without even attempting to fight...well it seems lionshaft and the rest haven't changed.

Edited July 3, 2017 by Teutonic

[Christendom]

Now having experienced the current iteration of the US post wipe, I'll add a few comments here.

Clans not working together. NPG doesn't like to work with IGG, DD refuses to work with anyone....etc etc.  Far too much drama.  A lot of this has to do with the piss poor leadership that NPG presents through lionshaft, the guy should just stick to running lazer tag places instead of clans, and his absurd ego.  He refuses to be flexible and the clan before nation mindset is damaging.  After New Orleans port battle I was shocked at how many could not manual sail and myself and Thomas Pain of TF made attempts to get NPG to commit guys to doing basic fleet maneuvers and turns, lion's response was "yea my guys won't be interested in that".  Frankly the best thing that could of happened was Daniel Silver taking over for most of the NPG stuff, hopefully it stays that way.  

IGG is also a problem (Dauntless' Clan).  They consistently shit talk the NPG guys in Nation chat.  Second guess decisions.  Barely show up to support the nation.  Start west end flips then stop helping and then blame NPG for finishing and setting the battle.  Show up in cheap store bought brigs...  During the Soto La Marina fight I saw Koiz outside in a basic cutter just hello kittying around.  During the Savannah fight Koiz was just out in a merc hello kittying around and got tagged by the pirates and then live streamed it.  Seemed odd.  He then live streamed nation chat for a while.  He and his clan then went pirate the next day, seems like there was some tampering going on to help out the pirates.  Basically the dude is a scumbag and the nation will be better without IGG.

Clans like DD are a huge problem and refuse to organize.  There is this mindset in the US, I paid my 40 bucks and I'll do what I want.  That is detrimental to the nation.  The PVP1 guys left because we just couldn't organize and we were not going to waste further time and resources calling the east coast our home.  

So in summary.  Unite around what Daniel Silver is trying to do.  Stop being hello kittying idiots and get on TS and talk to each other.

Edited July 3, 2017 by Christendom

[Christendom]

6 minutes ago, Louis Garneray said:

France would welcome any US players Christendom...

Brit now buddy.  See you sooooon!

[surfimp]

2 hours ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

 US biggest enemy isn't the pirates or other nations. It is themselves.   Ya'll are so toxic to each other and self destructive at times. 

Story checks out. When I started on PVP Global (PVP2 back then) I rolled US just because I thought it'd be fun, etc.

I was so tremendously put off by what I saw in chat then, the way others players spoke to each other and to the rest in Global chat, it really turned me off.

Some IRL buddies wanted to get into Naval Action and wanted to go UK, so I re-rolled British and changed my name to the current one, as an homage to my experience with the US (for those who don't know, Benedict Arnold was a Revolutionary War hero who ended up betraying the US and helping the British, and has been remembered as a villain ever since. The "Ahhnold" spelling is a play on the way we pronounce Arnold Schwarzenegger's name here in the states).

For patch 10.0 I tried out the Forged Papers mechanic to switch to Pirate as I wanted to really commit to my solo hunting playstyle. One of my favorite places to hunt is the US east coast, because they so rarely help each other I can (and have) capped player traders right in front of Charleston and very few US players even make the smallest effort to stop me. It's kinda sad to be honest.

Anyways, just wanted to share my anecdote to confirm what @Sir Texas Sir said about the US being their own worst enemy. Hopefully they can just start taking care of each other first, and then maybe build a strong base to grow from.

[Simon Cadete]

IGG went pirate?? What the hell? 

Well why don't all US players that pvp (very small percentage) go brit or French and the rest switch over to pve server and let the east coast go pirate?

lets stop this slow death crap and just put an end to it. 

[HoneyBaddger]

The US is getting wrekt right now on the east coast. I took 2 Surprises yesterday and sunk 8 traders brings today, all with my Surprise. They have started to come out in Basic Cutters and other small ships. Why? I have only a Surprise. Not scared are yall 

Edited July 4, 2017 by airborneguy

[Trouble]

4 hours ago, airborneguy said:

The US is getting wrekt right now on the east coast. I took 2 Surprises yesterday and sunk 8 traders brings today, all with my Surprise. They have started to come out in Basic Cutters and other small ships. Why? I have only a Surprise. Not scared are yall 

You sound like someone that kicks puppies and brags about it...

[Hodo]

19 hours ago, airborneguy said:

The US is getting wrekt right now on the east coast. I took 2 Surprises yesterday and sunk 8 traders brings today, all with my Surprise. They have started to come out in Basic Cutters and other small ships. Why? I have only a Surprise. Not scared are yall 

I would say congrats, but seeing as I did the same thing and more in a Lynx, I can say I am not impressed.

Since the US has lost Georgia I have refused to hit US shipping because it is too easy, and I am starting to feel bad.  That and no letters of marque have been issued for US shipping so I am not actively hunting.   

[Vllad]

On ‎7‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 11:34 AM, Benedict Ahhnold said:

I was so tremendously put off by what I saw in chat then, the way others players spoke to each other and to the rest in Global chat, it really turned me off.

Every nation has this issue. The larger the nation the bigger the problem. France is a very small nation and we are in a civil war. I think this just comes with this game as clans simply can't agree and/or have different play styles.

You have 4 types of leaders/players in NA.

Player 1- The Grand Strategist- this guy tries to pre-plan down to every little detail how they are going to conquer the world. Typically this guy has no clue why no one else understands his brilliance.

Player 2- The Market Genius- this guy just wants to trade and be the first to reach a billion dollars. Typically this guy works in a bubble and doesn't understand why everyone else is getting in the way of his economic empire! Even if a billion dollars is useless.

Player 3- The Viking Raiders- this guy just wants to OW pvp with his buddies. Typically this guy doesn't understand why killing everything he see's ends up pissing everyone off.

Player 4- The Solo Privateer- this guy just wants to find 1v1 fights. Typically this guy can't understand why we can't just all line up in single combat for individual glory!

 

So in summary The Viking Raider is out killing everyone so The Grand Strategist can't get his world conquest plan set up, in return this impedes trading so The Market Genius needs more ALTs or keeps moving nations which in return ruins The Solo Privateer who doesn't even acknowledge his nation exist and is pissed that he keeps getting ganked by other Viking Raiders.

Run on sentence but you get the point.

[Hethwill]

What a mighty chuckle. Thanks Vllad. Quite a nutshell indeed.

I like the dynamics that all those "characters" provide.

[surfimp]

I like @Vllad's breakdown of player types, too - sort of a Bartle's Taxonomy for Naval Action - but my reasons for being put off by the US playerbase didn't revolve around things relate to gameplay styles. Since Sea Trials I have played for a variety of nations across all the main servers and, for whatever reason, the US playerbase on Global just really turned me off. Maybe that is changing now, I don't know, and of course you can't paint them all with the same brush. But it was enough that I didn't want to continue and have been much happier elsewhere.

[Hethwill]

21 minutes ago, Benedict Ahhnold said:

sort of a Bartle's Taxonomy for Naval Action

Yeah, pretty much. Remember, this ain't Europa Universalis... well, it can be but it ain't...

[Tenet]

2 hours ago, Vllad said:

Every nation has this issue. The larger the nation the bigger the problem. France is a very small nation and we are in a civil war. I think this just comes with this game as clans simply can't agree and/or have different play styles.

You have 4 types of leaders/players in NA.

Player 1- The Grand Strategist- this guy tries to pre-plan down to every little detail how they are going to conquer the world. Typically this guy has no clue why no one else understands his brilliance.

Player 2- The Market Genius- this guy just wants to trade and be the first to reach a billion dollars. Typically this guy works in a bubble and doesn't understand why everyone else is getting in the way of his economic empire! Even if a billion dollars is useless.

Player 3- The Viking Raiders- this guy just wants to OW pvp with his buddies. Typically this guy doesn't understand why killing everything he see's ends up pissing everyone off.

Player 4- The Solo Privateer- this guy just wants to find 1v1 fights. Typically this guy can't understand why we can't just all line up in single combat for individual glory!

 

So in summary The Viking Raider is out killing everyone so The Grand Strategist can't get his world conquest plan set up, in return this impedes trading so The Market Genius needs more ALTs or keeps moving nations which in return ruins The Solo Privateer who doesn't even acknowledge his nation exist and is pissed that he keeps getting ganked by other Viking Raiders.

Run on sentence but you get the point.

You are missing at least one more type, the one that just wants classic 3-faction RvR without any prospects of domination and without driving opponents out of the game. The person that likes the screening and 25v25 PB and the OW maneuvering that reaches that culmination, and for whom long term strategical implications are more of a detriment than a goal. For such a person the map would always Reset in "rebellion" whenever one side got too strong and whenever two sides would push too hard against the third. 

Why isn't that kind of player represented in your summary? You think there are no such French?

The reason you aren't working together isn't because you have different types of people, but because they are generally too lazy as a whole, and don't understand that sometimes to move forward you need to take a step sideways. You have too many classical "Scrubs" in matters of cooperation. 

Was the first thing you did after wipe is create a national meeting to set short and long term goals and listen to all the different types voice their preferences? Did you establish a central voice chat where all nation members must stay connected by convention? Did you elect empowered representatives with specifically written mandates and goals for Diplomacy, allowing each player type to thrive? Did even try to create an appearance of a respectable entity that can be somewhat trusted in anything by other Nations?!

I interviewed several French players over the past month and there was always the hint of the "scrub" in much of the argumentation of their position:

http://sirlingames.squarespace.com/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html

Quote

"There is the mistaken notion, though, that by merely continuing to play or "learn" the game, that one can become a top player. In reality, the "scrub" has many more mental obstacles to overcome than anything actually going on during the game. The scrub has lost the game even before it starts. He's lost the game before he's chosen his character. He's lost the game even before the decision of which game is to be played has been made. His problem? He does not play to win."

For example: "The Danes were unfair to me once, therefore, forever, I will never work with the Danes to win the game (to balance the map, to survive an attack from a larger foe,  to gain more long term opportunities to PvP/Trade/RvR, etc. "

Quote

The scrub would take great issue with this statement for he usually believes that he is playing to win, but he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevent him from ever truly competing.

The funny thing is that the Dutch also have scrubs, but of a different kind.

The French can be quite on meta in ship building and battle tactics and bringing the right ships to the OW. The Dutch have some individuals that reject the meta without even testing and take multiple beatings to convince.

The French are completely off-meta on internal organization and cooperation, and don't even play the same game as the rest of the server. You have multiple individuals that declare various forms of cooperation as "inherently impossible" while providing no evidence of conducting any clean and unbiased experimentation.

The Dutch have just as many people with wildly different in-game priorities, but who, on the level of clans and diplomacy, work very well together. Internal frictions exist, but they are kept in check by the prevailing drive to cooperate - the recognition that to achieve a personal goal becomes much easier if trading forms of effort with a person of entirely different goals in the game. 

This is particularly glaring when I talk politics with a French player - the claims become entirely irrational and speak of deep ignorance of the reality on the server. Non-existing alliances are quoted, pre-wipe grievances that should have no relevance from "play to win" perspective. There is some weird role playing considerations involved - a French pride that manifests itself in superficial declarations but contradicts the reality of this being just a game. These traits exist in other nations, but to a much lesser degree. Words of a Nation, behavior of tribal clans. 

This is the core of your problem - you may be keeping up to speed on how to sail ships, but your cooperation game is the weakest on the server. You are trying to justify your bad game by claiming good game is impossible,  while ignoring that many others succeed where you fail. Naval Action tests more than your ability to utilize a Teak/Teak Victory in a PB, or to mount a raid against fat traders. 

I seem like bashing the French in this, so here's a necessary edit: players low in cooperation ability exist in all nations, trouble starts when they become a majority of the influencers. 

p.s. Bartle Taxonomy isn't the word of god. He's a mere human, he was writing from a perspective of a developer that did not have PvP experience, and his view on PvPers as only "Killers" was incredibly shallow. He failed to predict or recognize the sporting mentality and competitive PvP, for example. Quoting him in  general, without specific arguments, becomes a form of "support by authority", a logical fallacy. 

 

Edited July 5, 2017 by Tenet

[surfimp]

53 minutes ago, Tenet said:

p.s. Bartle Taxonomy isn't the word of god. He's a mere human, he was writing from a perspective of a developer that did not have PvP experience, and his view on PvPers as only "Killers" was incredibly shallow. He failed to predict or recognize the sporting mentality and competitive PvP, for example. Quoting him in  general, without specific arguments, becomes a form of "support by authority", a logical fallacy.

Well thank goodness I didn't quote him then, and instead merely noted that @Vllad's breakdown of NA player types was our own sort of homegrown taxonomy of players, similar - in the sense that it is a type of taxonomy - to the famous one proposed by Bartle.

[Hethwill]

You are right on one thing that sums up your post Tenet.

There is no right way to play the game.

p.s. Bartle's "pvp killer" is in regards to boardgame players that will use all possibilities in the rules, directly or indirectly to smash the opposition soundly. They will attack when there's no chance for loss and they make it clear for all other players around the gaming table. Is not related to meta nor to politics. It is related to win by all means necessary.

[Vllad]

34 minutes ago, Benedict Ahhnold said:

Well thank goodness I didn't quote him then, and instead merely noted that @Vllad's breakdown of NA player types was our own sort of homegrown taxonomy of players, similar - in the sense that it is a type of taxonomy - to the famous one proposed by Bartle.

Well that and I have a better sense of humor than Bartle!

I guess Tenet didn't get that I was making fun of all of us (including myself) and the irony of how groups break a part because they actually need each other!

Edited July 5, 2017 by Vllad

[surfimp]

Just now, Vllad said:

Well that and I have a better sense of humor than Bartle!

I guess Tenet didn't get that I was making fun of all of us and the irony of how groups break a part because they actually need each other!

It's true. As a solo pirate/privateer hunting for player traders, I absolutely rely on the trading, economy and RVR mechanics working to keep laden trade vessels in the game. I provide "content" by playing a villain, which leads to excitement / satisfaction for my opponents when my quarry get away and/or their allied sheepdogs get to be heroes and rescue them from me. And I get my hunting itch scratched in scouting regions, trying to find lucrative locations to setup an outpost, and then stalk and hopefully capture prizes.

It's all part of a healthy ecosystem and like Hodo I change my hunting grounds frequently to prevent overload. Right now I'm giving the US a break, there's too many other pirates in the woods and all the game are scared.

[Tenet]

15 minutes ago, Vllad said:

Well that and I have a better sense of humor than Bartle!

I guess Tenet didn't get that I was making fun of all of us (including myself) and the irony of how groups break a part because they actually need each other!

Your argument must have been weak if you are using such a weak deflection to defend.  You ignored a major group of players that does not fit, and actually opposes in some ways, every single other group in your post. You said nothing about the trait producing cooperation among opposites. 

Do you always only directly respond to Yes-men and supporters? That's a characteristic of the inflexible and uncooperative. 

More on cooperation from Lao Tze, GNL is not Lao:

Quote

 

61. Submission

A nation is like a hierarchy, a marketplace, and a maiden.
A maiden wins her husband by submitting to his advances;
Submission is a means of union.

So when a large country submits to a small country
It will adopt the small country;
When a small country submits to a large country
It will be adopted by the large country;
The one submits and adopts;
The other submits and is adopted.

It is in the interest of a large country to unite and gain service,
And in the interest of a small country to unite and gain patronage;
If both would serve their interests,
Both must submit.

 

 

Quote

 

76. Flexibility

A newborn is soft and tender,
A crone, hard and stiff.
Plants and animals, in life, are supple and succulent;
In death, withered and dry.
So softness and tenderness are attributes of life,
And hardness and stiffness, attributes of death.

Just as a sapless tree will split and decay
So an inflexible force will meet defeat;
The hard and mighty lie beneath the ground
While the tender and weak dance on the breeze above.

 

I have to note that I have not been  reading and thinking about those extracts of wisdom often enough, and avoidable mistakes were made. 

http://acc6.its.brooklyn.cuny.edu/~phalsall/texts/taote-v4.html

Edited July 5, 2017 by Tenet

[Vllad]

1 hour ago, The Red Duke said:

You are right on one thing that sums up your post Tenet.

 

Red, would you please let Tenet know that I am part of The Viking Raiders group and by default inflexible and uncooperative and therefore totally incapable of responding to him directly.

Edited July 5, 2017 by Vllad

[Tenet]

If you weren't roleplaying and lying to yourself, you wouldn't be posting on this forum at all. 

[Teutonic]

1 minute ago, Tenet said:

If you weren't roleplaying and lying to yourself, you wouldn't be posting on this forum at all. 

you're taking this too seriously

[Tenet]

5 minutes ago, Teutonic said:

you're taking this too seriously

You're playing to lose.