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Banished Privateer

Fix for Revenge Fleets

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It's not very easy fix to implement probably, but Devs should write an algorithm that would spawn you x miles away from any enemy player ship. Best distance would be out of sight of enemy ships, so they cannot chase you after you leave and you won't accidentally spawn magically next to some kind of enemy trader and hunt him down. With that solution we can get rid of invisibility cloaking device and fix revenge fleets. Size and spread out of revenge fleets won't matter. Also we won't be forced to teleport to the friendly port and sail again for hunting. Teleport to friendly port was a cool option, but was very often exploited, used for faster traveling, exploited with alts etc. 

What's the main problem about revenge fleets? The problem is that OW speeds are boosted and battle instance speeds are in real time with OW. If someone wants to speak about realism of revenge fleets, your speed in OW should be dropped to realistic as well :) You have 3 minutes to reinforce the battle, that's a lot of time.

Personally I still believe that only ships in sight of battle should be able to join, no timers. That makes more sense and would be logical. 

______________

Difficulties to implement it:

• shallows (player cannot be spawned in shallows if he uses deep water ship)

• land (there are just textures, AI can normally sail through the land, there is a chance players could get spawned in land)

• spawning on the other side of islands / continent (Pacific Coast)

• complex algorithm to calculate where to spawn you.

Edited by Peter Goldman
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18 minutes ago, Pelennor said:

Just make invisibility last longer will solve the problem.

And cause other problems.

Edited by z4ys
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OP is doable. Just need a random number generator to add a +/- number from between 0-5000 (!?) on your x and z coordinates when you are returning to OW after leaving the battle. But it also might be hard not to place you on land, so then the devs need a overview over all the coordinates that is land/shallow, and do a check of you new coordinates before you get to enter OW. If they have a list that covers all the land and shallow areas, this is still doable. But this should not happen when we fight AI fleets or enter missions. Would get a lot of players lost in OW, each time they enter a battle instance. So it should be limited to only PvP battles. 
A feature like this could make it impossible for a revenge fleet to find you. But I don't think that is fair game play. That is basically having a exit to safe area in OW after a battle, and this will result in a gank fest in all our capital home waters.

IMO we should be able to leave the battle instance and spawn in OW at the same position we had in the battle instance. This has been suggested before, because after sailing for 1,5 hour and then + 15 minutes, you might be able to reach a safe area/harbor. You will at least be far away from where the battle originally started in OW, and this solution is more realistic logical, than adding some magic disappearing act or having invisible ships.
If a dedicated enemy player stays in the battle and follows you and reports you location for the entire time you are running, then the revenge fleet still has a chance to kill you. But this makes it a lot more difficult than just park around some battle cross in OW.

This would also remove the need for invisibility. A feature that make it possible to be surrounded by invisible enemy players. Those who exploit this start a fight, then stay in that fight ready to leave the battle when their scout/spy see something interesting passing. Then the random passing player (often sailing alone) is totally unaware that he is being surrounded by several enemy ships.

 

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1 hour ago, Pelennor said:

Just make invisibility last longer will solve the problem.

Yep and please bring the flying dutchman out of the movie. That every ganker can go up and down as he likes :)

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Revenge fleets is not a developer problem but a player problem. The best way to deal with them is to bring more players to kill them. They are the easiest way to find PVP in the game and you want to get rid of them why? So you can solo easier?  

Come to my homelands waters and we will use a sledgehammer to crush you. If you don't like it bring a bigger hammer.

You might as well get used to the fact that Voice Com's will over ride any suggestion you can make to the developer to stop revenge fleets. Learn to deal with it, get around them or defeat them. More invis, random spawning, and whatever else you can think of can be defeated by players that use voice com's. Any developer time spent on getting rid of revenge fleets is a waste of their time.

Their are plenty of options for players to get around them so the developers should just come out and say, "learn to deal with them yourselves".

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The reward for sinking an enemy Captain shouldn't be more Captains immediately waiting to kill you.  And it's not even a home water issue.  I've been "Revenge Fleeted" out in the Gulf.

The best solution I've heard is simply a tweaking of what we had before:  Return to friendly port after a fight, but you can't take fleet vessels or cargo (beyond repairs) with you.

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Allow logout after battle and then when logging back in to OW have a 'you cannot attack enemies' for 10 minutes. No more Stealth Invisibility ganking devices.

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My favorite is to sail away in battle distance, spawn there and a bit more invisibility. It must be possible to flee with some efford, and in the same way to catch the gankers, if they are to stupid or arrogant . (mostly the attacker is the ganker and the revenge fleet is the revenge fleet.) 

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2 minutes ago, furyGer said:

My favorite is to sail away in battle distance, spawn there and a bit more invisibility. It must be possible to flee with some efford, and in the same way to catch the gankers, if they are to stupid or arrogant . (mostly the attacker is the ganker and the revenge fleet is the revenge fleet.) 

The Revenge fleet are just as much gankers as is the "ganker"... :)

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2 hours ago, Pelennor said:

Just make invisibility last longer will solve the problem.

2 hours ago, z4ys said:

And cause other problems.

 

Abuse of invisibility can be countered by inability to attack/join battles for some time after the invisibility as I've suggested before.

 

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To avoid ganking limit PvP to only 1v1 or 2v2. If you are going to tag a ship and he has two friends around him, then he gets those 2 ships in the battle and its 3v1 with you as the aggressor. Otherwise, all battles are single action unless equal ships are allowed in

To avoid revenge fleet, 5 min timer that ships departing can't engage in PvP and 2 1/2 minute of invisibility. That should be more than enough time to escape and find a safe harbor.

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1 hour ago, Tiedemann said:

OP is doable. Just need a random number generator to add a +/- number from between 0-5000 (!?) on your x and z coordinates when you are returning to OW after leaving the battle. But it also might be hard not to place you on land, so then the devs need a overview over all the coordinates that is land/shallow, and do a check of you new coordinates before you get to enter OW. If they have a list that covers all the land and shallow areas, this is still doable. But this should not happen when we fight AI fleets or enter missions. Would get a lot of players lost in OW, each time they enter a battle instance. So it should be limited to only PvP battles. 
A feature like this could make it impossible for a revenge fleet to find you. But I don't think that is fair game play. That is basically having a exit to safe area in OW after a battle, and this will result in a gank fest in all our capital home waters.

IMO we should be able to leave the battle instance and spawn in OW at the same position we had in the battle instance. This has been suggested before, because after sailing for 1,5 hour and then + 15 minutes, you might be able to reach a safe area/harbor. You will at least be far away from where the battle originally started in OW, and this solution is more realistic logical, than adding some magic disappearing act or having invisible ships.
If a dedicated enemy player stays in the battle and follows you and reports you location for the entire time you are running, then the revenge fleet still has a chance to kill you. But this makes it a lot more difficult than just park around some battle cross in OW.

This would also remove the need for invisibility. A feature that make it possible to be surrounded by invisible enemy players. Those who exploit this start a fight, then stay in that fight ready to leave the battle when their scout/spy see something interesting passing. Then the random passing player (often sailing alone) is totally unaware that he is being surrounded by several enemy ships.

 

Do you consider @Liquicity, @Otto Kohl, @Zooloo or other solo players as gankers? Including whole OCEAN clan. Most of the players sail towards the capital for the PvP, as there is the highest chance to find a battle and players.

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29 minutes ago, Niels Terkildsen said:

 

Abuse of invisibility can be countered by inability to attack/join battles for some time after the invisibility as I've suggested before.

 

There is already inability to attack / join for x seconds after invisibility. This doesn't fix the problem like suddenly 20 Pirates invisible appearing next to you and you're being surrounded. What help for you will be to have 30 seconds more of protection until they target you?

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3 minutes ago, Peter Goldman said:

There is already inability to attack / join for x seconds after invisibility. This doesn't fix the problem like suddenly 20 Pirates invisible appearing next to you and you're being surrounded. What help for you will be to have 30 seconds more of protection until they target you?

So maybe get the option to choose between 1) leave to OW with no invisible timer and 2) log out after battle, when logging back in to OW you get a 10 minute "you cant attack anyone" timer and a 1 min invis timer.

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2 minutes ago, Liquicity said:

So maybe get the option to choose between 1) leave to OW with no invisible timer and 2) log out after battle, when logging back in to OW you get a 10 minute "you cant attack anyone" timer and a 1 min invis timer.

Why am I forced to logout if I want to avoid revenge fleets? That basically forces me to stop playing. Do you remember revenge fleets around Jamaica waiting for 2-3 hours for enemies to login back into the game after they ALT+F4'ed?

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11 minutes ago, Liquicity said:

So maybe get the option to choose between 1) leave to OW with no invisible timer and 2) log out after battle, when logging back in to OW you get a 10 minute "you cant attack anyone" timer and a 1 min invis timer.

So you sail into enemy waters, pick out a single trader, sink and loot him, log out, log back in, get 10min invulnerability, where you can look around for a new victim and repeat? 

I don´t think that is a solution. Suddenly the waters are filled with vessels you cannot attack due to an obscure countdown and you don´t know when....

Maybe choose if you get 1min invisility or a diplomatic status which will reset after calling the next friendly port...

 

Edited by Ole Pinelle

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Just now, Ole Pinelle said:

So you sail into enemy waters, pick out a single trader, sink and loot him, log out, log back in, get 10min invulnerability, where you can look around for a new victim and repeat? 

I don´t think that is a solution. Suddenly the waters are filled with vessels you cannot attack due to an obscure countdown and you don´t know when....

 

 

No, you can not attack others, while they can attack you.

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2 hours ago, Liquicity said:

Allow logout after battle and then when logging back in to OW have a 'you cannot attack enemies' for 10 minutes. No more Stealth Invisibility ganking devices.

But why force players to quit the game for x amount of hours.. OP is both doable and the most effective..

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The effective result of your proposed "micro teleport" would be essentially the same as if the player got something like 2min invisibility followed by 1 or 2 minutes of "cannot attack or be attacked"... a total of 4min window to "get away" from the revenge fleet, without devolving into the abhorrent "get out of jail free" card that is represented by the "teleport to nearest free city" suggestion (and this is abhorrent because it removes balance from the game... should I be allowed to farm player traders off Charleston and then, after sinking them, get a free teleport to Sunbury or Little River which denys the US sheepdogs a chance to catch me? Not fair)

The extended invisibility allows the opportunity, through captain skill, to set a good course and make a run for it. The 1-2min "cannot attack or be attacked" afterwards prevents the abuse of the invisibility mechanic for the purpose of "popping out of the blue" and attacking someone. Furthermore, it doesn't require additional coding to implement, in fact nothing more than modifying the timer variables already present in the game.

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23 minutes ago, Benedict Ahhnold said:

The effective result of your proposed "micro teleport" would be essentially the same as if the player got something like 2min invisibility followed by 1 or 2 minutes of "cannot attack or be attacked"... a total of 4min window to "get away" from the revenge fleet, without devolving into the abhorrent "get out of jail free" card that is represented by the "teleport to nearest free city" suggestion (and this is abhorrent because it removes balance from the game... should I be allowed to farm player traders off Charleston and then, after sinking them, get a free teleport to Sunbury or Little River which denys the US sheepdogs a chance to catch me? Not fair)

The extended invisibility allows the opportunity, through captain skill, to set a good course and make a run for it. The 1-2min "cannot attack or be attacked" afterwards prevents the abuse of the invisibility mechanic for the purpose of "popping out of the blue" and attacking someone. Furthermore, it doesn't require additional coding to implement, in fact nothing more than modifying the timer variables already present in the game.

1 or 2 minutes of invisibility is nothing if you have 20 SORRY waiting outside for you, spread out all around covering huge area.

Spanish players are still not smart enough with revenge fleets as they blop on each other, but as soon as they learn how to do it, I will have 30-40 angry Spanish with US chasing me. That's what happened to us when we managed to capture Spanish Bucentaure. There was no chance to get away with the price, only to sink it or sacrifice. 

Edited by Peter Goldman

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If they have dedicated 30-40 ships to capture one or two raiders, then who is guarding the rest of their coast?

Sounds like a fantastic way to slip an invasion fleet through enemy waters - sacrifice one or two ships and tie up an entire nation's navy for an hour or two as they try to "revenge gank" the raiders. From a wargaming perspective, you have caused them to commit disproportionate resources for very little gain. If performed as part of a larger strategy this would be very easy to exploit for your nation's RVR gain.

To be clear, in my view game balance dictates that there should be no guarantees of escape. I have scuttled captured ships in fleet to ensure my far more valuable (to me) hunting ship can escape. It's the cost of doing business. And sometimes, I know that even the hunting ship will be caught, despite my best efforts. That is the nature of hunting in your enemy's home waters. 

Anyways, what you're proposing - a mini teleport to clear waters out of LOS to any enemy ship - might as well be a teleport to nearest free port. In my view, it amounts to asking for a "get out of jail free card." Even though such a change would directly benefit me, I do not support it because of its many opportunities for exploitative abuse, and because I feel it imbalances the game. If the EU server is so populated and these revenge fleets such an issue, then it must be the case that hunting at further flung locations, intercepting solo ships where they cannot be easily rescued by the coast guard, must at least be considered and tried before demanding that the game mechanics be broken to suit your interest in a free getaway.

Just my opinion and not an attack - I hear where you are coming from, I just see things differently.

Edited by Benedict Ahhnold
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I said this before.

Increase invisibility to 60 seconds, it is a double blind, you cant see anyone else and they cant see you.  

During that time you have 125% movement, and it is at max speed, (so if you go 30kn OW then you will go 38kn OW at any point of sail) while you are invisible.   

This way it emulates the fact that the battle was over hours ago in REAL life, and you had traveled at least 20-30 nautical miles by the time the rescue/revenge fleet arrived.  AND you wouldnt see them yet because they havent arrived on scene yet.

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One important modification to your suggestion of longer invisibility:

Allow players to decide coming out of the battle whether they want safety or want to keep fighting immediately. 

Don't force everyone to have an exit timer if they want to fight that revenge fleet or join another battle - give an option!

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