Franco-Danish Trade Wars

[Hethwill]

We might have more class.

Yachts it is.

[Barbancourt]

On 6/26/2017 at 3:54 PM, Barbancourt (rownd) said:

Dear courageous Viking neighbors: It is good that we were able to avoid unnecessary bloodshed and loss of beautiful sailing ships today.  Perhaps our relationship is turning a corner torwards a more positive future!

Dear august Viking neighbors, I see that our hopes for a positive outcome which might promote stability are misplaced, as reports are coming in that you have resumed your bloody campaign of Viking Aggression against the good french citizens of Guadeloupe.  The blood you have shed in the waters that nourish our citizens strengthens the mortar of their towering Resolve to resist this Barbarian Occupation.  Alas, the flowery words of deception that issue from the serpentine tongues of your diplomats cannot mask the naked flames of lust for domination that burn in the raw barbarian hearts of your Viking Warlords.  It seems that the time is fast approaching when we may even need to strike at the very root of this problem and take the campaign of Liberation to Christiansted itself, by which time the considerations of humanity will have by necessity become secondary to the needs of War.   We are a civilized people, who value patience and diplomacy.  But beware that patience is finite, and resolve is infinite.  If War it will be, then let the cannons speak their brand of diplomacy. 

Edited June 30, 2017 by Barbancourt (rownd)

[Bach]

War Update:  French civil war continues with the French Republicans in the North (Bork, Purge, Rovers, WO and TCD) and the French Royalists (ICS) in the South.

Dane war continues to be a ping pong game of ports. Following the breakdown of the second peace talks the French Republicans went on the offense and decided to start flipping port outside traditional French territory.  Various Battles for the Virgin Islands ensued.  Trade has been shut down in many areas or at least become less safe with both sides losing cargo ships.  OW skirmishes tend to favor the French.  The first attempt by the French to flip the Virgin Islands was met with heavy Basic Cutter resistance by the Danes.  As the Basic cutters can generate an entire groups worth of hostility using only NPCs, which are plentiful in Road Town, the offensive was stopped at 86% after 6 hours.  Then there were some shenanigans.  The Virgin Island county was flipped in Danish prime time with unknown (unclanned alt) French attackers providing the hostility kills of willing to die Danes. Screen shots were collected and Tribunal is investigating.  Port battle occurred early AM EST.  Swedish forces screened for the Danish fleet.  Port battle was 25 Danish SOLs vs 15 French with some held out by Swedish screeners.  French forces with drew and multiple OW battles ensued.  Swedish screening fleet was sunk as well as 11 Danish ships.  French losses were 3 ships that valiantly fought to the end.

Dutch war is mostly being prosecuted by the French Royalists and they have been battle for Cumana for a few days.  Word is heavy OW fighting while trying to gain hostility. The counter moves forward and back as both sides are in a heavy give and take confrontation.  Rumor is the OW battles favor the Dutch but the Royalists have superior Port Battle prowess as evidenced by Port of Spain battle a week ago.  (Someone from ICS would have to add more detail)

Other than the basic cutter crap and alt flip shenanigans this has been a lot of fun. Most pvp fun in quite awhile.  If I may suggest you all are to worried about owning ports. Get out there and attack someone that can give you a challenge. It is what this game was made for.  So yes, Brit and Pirates stop double teaming the USA. Its time one of you two throw down the gauntlet to the other and get it on!   Don't be afraid of going head to head with the other power group your size. You will love it!

 

Edited July 5, 2017 by Bach

[Axel]

War with Denmark has been concluded with a peace deal.

Bork Bork Bork

[Axel]

43 minutes ago, Axel said:

War with Denmark has been concluded with a peace deal.

Bork Bork Bork

Nevermind what a joke

[Bach]

1 hour ago, Axel said:

Nevermind what a joke

Shortest peace treaty ever. LOL

 

[Barbancourt]

I am not even slightly surprised. 

[Bach]

Condensed version of events for the cheap seats and those munching popcorn so loud they missed it.

Initial event that kicked this all off. Some ICS and a Bork captains capture x5 Dane Indiamen carrying cargo. Danes complain and demand a treaty and compensation.

Dane treaty offer #1  - We flip each other ports for CMs, agree to non-shooting alliance with Danes and Swedes. France agrees to allow Swedes Bowvenwinds and Leewards. France agrees to honor Dane claims in Virgins, Puerto Rico and Santo Domingo.  Danes flip French ports for contention in mock battles holding Basse-Terre and Grand Terre Temporarily.  Nation of France ask what temporary means?  Danes say "until the Devs put the Alliance system back into the game".  Since this is not a real end date and based on Dev forum posts its not happening this meant Danes intended to keep the two counties. All French nations except, ICS clan, counter with give BT and GT back after port flips.  One ICS member makes a backroom deal saying ALL of France agrees to the un-ammended deal.

Rest of France finds out ICS pledged yes to the original deal for all of France. Negotiations begin to set a real timeline to BT and GT return.  Report surface that the same one ICS member cut another side deal with the Danes to flip Bridgetown in early hours to cut other French clans out of the CM marks. Danes flip Bridgetown in Euro time zone and claim it was an accident. After the Bridgetown PB BT and GT still have no return date to French control. French get no end date for return of BT and GT. French feeling back stabbed on both the original deal, the Bridgetown PB and now the fair negotiation in general attack Dane shipping and flip GT back to French. The war is on! 

Treaty offer #2 - All the same stuff from treaty #1 plus a total alliance to Danes and Swedes to fight the Dutch. Danes keep BT and French get to keep GT because the Danes are feeling nice to them.  French Answer with a NO.  ICS cuts another side deal, same one ICS negotiator, for special treatment in the war and can still run cargo into and out of Dane ports. They make trade deals and help the Danes with claims the rest of France will quit once one ported. Only one problem. Danes discover they lack the ability to one port the rest of France even without ICS fighting.   France starts attacking territories not originally French by the original treaty.

40min Peace Treaty - a third party negotiator negotiates a peace and cease fire. Danes get all their lands honored, swedes get the lands Danes wanted them to have and France get BT and GT that they originally owned and that Danes originally promised to give back anyway.  Danes agree and so do all the French except ICS. Same one ICS player rejects any treaty Danes don't get BT.  Treaty is agreed. 40 min later the Danes come back and say NO they have to have BT. War is back on!

You couldn't make this stuff up folks

 

I'd like to put in a shameless plug for my "rebellion" system in the suggestions area. Sometimes we just need the ability to work things out with other clans inside our own nation.  Sometimes that one non-team player clan really needs to go a few pvp rounds with the others to gain some perspective. 

 

 

 

Edited July 6, 2017 by Bach

[Barbancourt]

In other words, they want us to GIVE them (and their pets, Two Guys From Sweden) at least two of our central regions in return for nothing more than a condescending attitude and a promise they won't "one port" poor helpless France.  Then on top of that they have the arrogance to think that after insulting us and taking our ports we will somehow become "allies".   

 

[Tenet]

Thank you  for the writeup Bach. I hope we will get a similarly detailed explanation from ICS and CCCP/Danes. 

If they are honest, we will get a separate view. If they are dishonest, we will get a record of the misinformation. 

It's interesting that a Dane + French alliance against the Dutch was considered. That would guarantee an eventual Dutch loss unless GB gets involved directly, with multiple clans pledging to shift East. Is GB ready to do that? Will the Dutch attempt to switch sides instead? Will the West vs. East war start in earnest?  Exciting times ahead. 

[Hethwill]

No quarrel with the Dutch on my part. The raiding that happens now and then is more of a show of how it can be done to groups that stick to the mini pve server in the corner.

I am certain many ICS players would wish a more pro active pvp role but they need to get out of that cycle of "pve" and go out there even if it means ow pvp around pampatar. They will learn a lot more and I am sure the dutch spirited captains will give them good fights.

And myself would enjoy a lot if a few of them would even join up in the raiding forays and pair up with the corsairs

There's nothing to gain in going against the Dutch. Quite the opposite. I like the dutch captains spirit and their organization.

[Vllad]

 

The Danes obviously aren't very good at reading the current environment. You don't get to demand what you can't keep and France is never going to give up Grande Terre and Basse Terre. The only team the Danes are going to continue to fight is France so they better get used to it.

The Danes are very predictable so they will go and try to make friends with the Pirates or Brits and ask for help against France. France will end up fighting the Danes plus a zerg. What do you think France will do then? France is full of OW pvp clans so giving up would be the wrong answer.

Maybe the Pirates or Brits will commit to saving the Danes but those guys know if they get involved that may just lead to France flipping over to the other Zerg. The question is do you want some Chinese port flippers who are bad at OW pvp or do you want rabid OW pvpers who can flip ports? I guess the Pirates and Brits will make that decision themselves.

Most likely neither the Pirates or Brits will help the Danes since France has proven they can keep the Chinese locked into a death grip permanently. Now no one has to worry about the Danes except France.  

[Arsilon]

1 hour ago, Tenet said:

It's interesting that a Dane + French alliance against the Dutch was considered. That would guarantee an eventual Dutch loss unless GB gets involved directly, with multiple clans pledging to shift East. Is GB ready to do that? Will the Dutch attempt to switch sides instead? Will the West vs. East war start in earnest?  Exciting times ahead. 

Don't over-read Bach's summary at least on the part of greater France. What was proposed and to what level it was actually considered are wildly different things and ultimately meaningless.  It only matters what was agreed to.  

As to what ICS thinks, I know that ICS interpretation on facts is wildly distorted from that of greater France (there are several convenient inconsistencies that we keep tripping over when trying to resolve differences but I will let them speak for themselves rather than drag the rest of the server through it).  I have tried several times over the past week to try and find some middle ground in their point of view and that of the rest of France and there seems to be little give on either side at this point.  They seem to be talking more from a Denmark frame of reference than that of themselves (thus the use of the word Vassal in previous political status posts).

In the meantime, Denmark and ICS continue to dig themselves deeper into the holes they have made for themselves -- I don't think either one of them judged the resolve of the rest of France properly and continue to underestimate French willingness to out grind Chinese contention (irony much?) and sustain on-going port ping-pong.  The recent tribunal case regarding Danish alt farming and other conversations regarding use of basic cutter shenanigans to game the contention generation is telling in that regard.   I also think both ICS and Denmark have carried forward too much of the pre-wipe political climate and pre-wipe player base distribution and are applying that to current thinking.  Pre-wipe France is MUCH different than the France you have today as you have several French clans that have returned from playing over a year ago on this server (before any more recent French and CCCP relationships) and other clans that have also switched from other server/nations.

Finding a 'face saving' solution is becoming less and less possible and both ICS and Denmark will quickly become pot committed (if they aren't indeed already there) and will have no way to back out from the path they have chosen for themselves.  

It could be just as likely at this point that it ends up being France/Dutch vs. Denmark/ICS than any other combination (I'm not suggesting or proposing this;  just that it's as reasonable a possible future as anything else).    There are certainly wild cards when you add Brits and Pirates into that potential mix as well that should make this side of the map interesting, indeed.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 6, 2017 by Arsilon

[VirtuallyIdiotic]

51 minutes ago, Arsilon said:

It could be just as likely at this point that it ends up being France/Dutch vs. Denmark/ICS than any other combination (I'm not suggesting or proposing this;  just that it's as reasonable a possible future as anything else). 

Dont bring the Dutch into your internal squabbles. Not to mention even think we would be foolish enough to go up against Danmark. We know how frustrating a war with them can be. Hence, why the Dutch have gone ahead to build good relations with Danmark. Great Britain I hardly see will even bother getting into this mess except by one scenario or two scenarios. None of which will end well for France. So continue to bicker and point fingers at each other. It will not end well and do not expect any external support. 

Edited July 6, 2017 by Davos Seasworth

[Bach]

2 hours ago, Tenet said:

Thank you  for the writeup Bach. I hope we will get a similarly detailed explanation from ICS and CCCP/Danes. 

If they are honest, we will get a separate view. If they are dishonest, we will get a record of the misinformation. 

It's interesting that a Dane + French alliance against the Dutch was considered. That would guarantee an eventual Dutch loss unless GB gets involved directly, with multiple clans pledging to shift East. Is GB ready to do that? Will the Dutch attempt to switch sides instead? Will the West vs. East war start in earnest?  Exciting times ahead. 

Pretty much the same thoughts of most of the French. We believe, right or wrong, that the whole of France out number the Dutch almost 3-1.  The Dutch are good players and good fighters so no one really wants to get into such an offsides contest. So we generally let the ICS v Dutch, with a small Bork contingent, contest go as it is believed to be a fair contest.  Even if it came to war with the Brits some French prefer island hopping past the Dutch and letting the good times of the open sea PvP continue as they are. Most French do not value owning land. We had purposely avoided the Swedish lands for the same reasons until they started screening for the Danes this past week.  It seems to be a hard concept for some of the old school pvp2 players to grasp but the new French players don't want your lands as much as we just want to PvP with you on the sea. 

The Dutch are respected in France    

o7

[Bach]

17 minutes ago, Davos Seasworth said:

Dont bring the Dutch into your internal squabbles. Not to mention even think we would be foolish enough to go up against Danmark. We know how frustrating a war with them can be. Hence, why the Dutch have gone ahead to build good relations with Danmark. Great Britain I hardly see will even bother getting into this mess except by one scenario or two scenarios. None of which will end well for France. 

This makes no sense and is old school thinking.  The Danes can barely pace 2/3rd of France in port ping pong.  Add a single Dutch grinding group to the mix the Danes likely get one ported and a taste of their own medicine from days gone by. Why are old pvp2 guys so scared of the Danes?  They don't have OW presence and they have to dual box to fill PBs. About the only thing they have going for them is a 12 hour time shift that protects them from us. If you can flip more ports then they are the ones that lose.  

Edited July 6, 2017 by Bach

[Helbent]

20 minutes ago, Bach said:

This makes no sense and is old school thinking.  The Danes can barely pace 2/3rd of France in port ping pong.  Add a single Dutch grinding group to the mix the Danes likely get one ported and a taste of their own medicine from days gone by. Why are old pvp2 guys so scared of the Danes?  They don't have OW presence and they have to dual box to fill PBs. About the only thing they have going for them is a 12 hour time shift that protects them from us. If you can flip more ports then they are the ones that lose.  

We are still recovering from the scars of those 3 am port battles and 40 minute peace treaties, give us some time.

[Axel]

3 hours ago, Tenet said:

Thank you  for the writeup Bach. I hope we will get a similarly detailed explanation from ICS and CCCP/Danes. 

If they are honest, we will get a separate view. If they are dishonest, we will get a record of the misinformation. 

It's interesting that a Dane + French alliance against the Dutch was considered. That would guarantee an eventual Dutch loss unless GB gets involved directly, with multiple clans pledging to shift East. Is GB ready to do that? Will the Dutch attempt to switch sides instead? Will the West vs. East war start in earnest?  Exciting times ahead. 

I think that the Dane alliance was supposed to help against the Brits helping you guys but I dont think any of us have actually ever had an explanation as to why we needed the Alliance.

[Axel]

6 minutes ago, Helbent said:

We are still recovering from the scars of those 3 am port battles and 40 minute peace treaties, give us some time.

My nation/clan was destroyed by the Danes a year ago while we were Sweden. It made plenty of people quit including me but with current mechanics it is much easier to do the same thing to them that they do to us.

[Vllad]

33 minutes ago, Helbent said:

We are still recovering from the scars of those 3 am port battles and 40 minute peace treaties, give us some time.

This made me smile.

A man of experience when it comes to dealing with the Danes.

[Slamz]

Just to clarify,

The real problem with the original Danish agreement created by LaKron was that no time table was secured for the return of Basse Terre and Grande Terre. The moment the Danes said they're keeping it until Diplomacy returns to the game (aka "never"), we considered the deal to be broken and attacked immediately.

We've spent 3 weeks punching the Danes in the face just to get back to a real version of the original deal (where the timetable for the return is "now").

Personally I would like to just keep doing this. Keep punching the Danes in the face until their nation is destroyed. I do believe we can do that with the forces we have right now and from everything they've said and done in the last 3 weeks, I feel they fully, absolutely deserve this. (By contrast, I oppose taking land from the Dutch. They are reasonable people, fun to fight and I have no desire to see them get crushed out of the game. If they get about a dozen more prime time players they'll be a real fight.)

The Danes made a serious mistake by dragging this out for 3 weeks: they forced France to learn how to become more efficient at grinding ports. It's not nearly the chore it used to be. I'm happy to keep doing it at this point. The only reason I'm even willing to think about backing off is because the other French clans want us to.

 

If I was King of France we would tell the Danes to use their forged papers because that's the only way they're getting out of this. They can forge and go France if they want. But I think Denmark should be crushed now.
 

Interesting footnote:

You can't crush a team that loves OW PvP. It's just impossible. They can do their favorite activity forever with one port.

You CAN crush a team that loves 25-man 1st rate port battles. That takes a lot of hauling, money and organizing and is exactly the sort of thing that can be stomped out.

Edited July 7, 2017 by Slamz

[VirtuallyIdiotic]

1 hour ago, Bach said:

This makes no sense and is old school thinking.  The Danes can barely pace 2/3rd of France in port ping pong.  Add a single Dutch grinding group to the mix the Danes likely get one ported and a taste of their own medicine from days gone by. Why are old pvp2 guys so scared of the Danes?  They don't have OW presence and they have to dual box to fill PBs. About the only thing they have going for them is a 12 hour time shift that protects them from us. If you can flip more ports then they are the ones that lose.  

Were not short sighted and as we said this is your war not ours. We have good business with the Danish why ruin that over someone else spilled drink? 

Edited July 6, 2017 by Davos Seasworth

[Taranis]

I think certain Danish players came onto pvp2 last year after many of the French players had already left for pvp1.  Given the vacuum, having swept through the Antilles, the Danes came to "tolerate" the few remaining French players, which they condescendingly put on a short leash.  Thus, the Danes thought that given their timezone and resources advantages, that history would repeat itself.   When ElricTheTwo, the main accustomed French diplomat decided to retire, the Danes were only too happy to find in certain French clan, a certain sellout, willing to agree to the first offhanded offer they dejectedly cast down upon him.  Thus did the Danes try to play kingmaker in refusing to listen to anyone other than this traitor.

[Bach]

20 minutes ago, Davos Seasworth said:

Were not short sighted and as we said this is your war not ours. We have good business with the Danish why ruin that over someone else spilled drink? 

Fair enough but keep an open mind.

[Barbancourt]

1 hour ago, Slamz said:

Just to clarify,

The real problem with the original Danish agreement created by LaKron was that no time table was secured for the return of Basse Terre. The moment the Danes said they're keeping it until Diplomacy returns to the game (aka "never"), we considered the deal to be broken and attacked immediately.

 

Both Basse-Terre and Grande-Terre.  Plus they took away Leewards to give to their pets Two Guys From Sweden.  Three regions under occupation.  We did not "attack" - we sailed in to secure the regions that are rightfully ours to begin with. The whole of Guadeloupe is an integral part of France. 

 

Edited July 6, 2017 by Barbancourt (rownd)