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Big Patch #10: Map / Coordinates Feedback [Heavily Moderated]

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maturin    5,454
4 minutes ago, Hodo said:

This is the truth, it is hard for a player who has a REAL life to do anything in game that isnt life consuming.  Some of us dont have the time to dedicate 8hours to sail from Charleston to the Windward Islands I am not looking to make a damned career out of it.  

Enough. Your attempts to somehow tie this to hours played are very weak. The ships go the same speed whether you have GPS or not.

 

This vaunted "navigation" that supposedly makes me a super l33t grognard no-lifer is as simple as looking at the map, estimating the bearing of my destination, and then sailing there AFK.

Anyone with a Middle School education can do this and do it well. Even by eyeballing the compass bearing and setting the course with the sticky laggy OW controls, your margin of error is small enough to cross the whole Gulf and hit your destination within visual range.

Which is much better than most historical captains did, even with sextants. They had to account for highly variable speed, currents, leeway, helmsman error, magnetic variation, different courses, a 'world' that was ten times larger...

Even with no GPS and no in-game map we have it a lot easier.

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Sir Texas Sir    3,660
7 minutes ago, Henry d'Esterre Darby said:

I doubt anyone currently alive actually has been on board a ship in a capacity where they were required to navigate in open water using only a sextant, and a single inaccurate chronometer (though ships with Captains who were privately wealthy may have carried two or three).  Maturin explained fairly well above the capabilities of navigation at the time, and while there may be room for a compromise, Admin willing, it is safe to say the days of an exact, or near exact latitude AND longitude in this game are over.  Ships in this period were very frequently off course by hundreds (or thousands) of miles when weather or an accident with the timepiece prevented adequate observations from being made.  Given current and leeway, which couldn't be accounted for with a log board, course, and sextant observations, ships very frequently did not know exactly where they were.

But some of us have gave some very reasonable means to do just that.  We said just drop off the last number so it's not so accurate.   So the if the coords are 73.35, 23.65 it would instead be 73.3, 23.6.  That is a lot of area for being a bit off course for folks.   Than you can use other means to adjust your course as you travel until you get in sit of land, but I"m sorry just completely removing it without any other replacement is just poor mechanics.  But for every ship that lost course or got lost, how many them was on time and on course?  Prob the odds where way more in father at this time for the ones that didn't get lost and blown off course.  Evne when they where they had the means to within some time to find themselves back on course for the most part.

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Anne Wildcat    1,297

If you get lost, use the spyglass to see if you can find land nearby.  Not sure what it is, sail up to it.  If there is nothing around, maybe it's time to pray? There is always the teleport to nearest port if you get lost.  And, if you want fights but don't want to sail, defend your home waters! There will be plenty of people who don't mind the sail to your waters. 

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Sir Texas Sir    3,660
4 minutes ago, Anne Wildcat said:

If you get lost, use the spyglass to see if you can find land nearby.  Not sure what it is, sail up to it.  If there is nothing around, maybe it's time to pray? There is always the teleport to nearest port if you get lost.  And, if you want fights but don't want to sail, defend your home waters! There will be plenty of people who don't mind the sail to your waters. 

Really how you use a spy glass when your in the middle of the open sea.   This isn't ancient Greece or even the vikings where they had to keep close to land.  Have you ever been to Kidd's?  Raided Bermuda?

 

9rMabfY.jpg

Edited by Sir Texas Sir

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Sir Texas Sir    3,660
1 minute ago, Hodo said:

Problem with that is, if you are between Kidds and Bermuda you wont see land for HOURS.  Then there is the teleport option.. it isnt to the closest friendly port, it is the closest deep water port.  So if you are in a war ship you just lost that ship because you cant leave a hostile port in a combat vessel.  GJ.

You don't go into the port by the way you just show up in front so your not stuck in it.  Though you are in the middle of maybe hostile waters though.

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Kiithnaras    142
20 minutes ago, Henry d'Esterre Darby said:

I doubt anyone currently alive actually has been on board a ship in a capacity where they were required to navigate in open water using only a sextant, and a single inaccurate chronometer (though ships with Captains who were privately wealthy may have carried two or three).  Maturin explained fairly well above the capabilities of navigation at the time, and while there may be room for a compromise, Admin willing, it is safe to say the days of an exact, or near exact latitude AND longitude in this game are over.  Ships in this period were very frequently off course by hundreds (or thousands) of miles when weather or an accident with the timepiece prevented adequate observations from being made.  Given current and leeway, which couldn't be accounted for with a log board, course, and sextant observations, ships very frequently did not know exactly where they were.

While this is a fair, if overstated, argument, there is a great difference between what we should have - basic navigation tools to determine the best course of sail to get to one's destination - and what we are currently given: Nothing (The use of the Trader tool in this regard is, in my opinion, an unintended loophole). As I and others have said, I am perfectly fine with not knowing our exact location. Between the Ship Compass, County indicator, Coordinate Map Lines, Landmark Navigation, and, ideally, some sort of Compass and Protractor in-game map tool, these tools should be sufficient for any captain, new or old, to learn and use effectively without having to know our -exact- location.

@maturin What you are failing to realize is that your hours in the game, practice, experience, and intellect make these very things easy for you. I'm pretty good at them myself. For a new player, they are not easy. They are frustrating, time-wasting, and, ultimately, not enjoyable. I have, in fact, first-hand experience attempting to teach newer players these very things back when we did not have any navigational tools. I will say, with all honesty, that my efforts were pretty much wasted on them. The fact that you want to keep these tools gone further illustrates your elitist attitude toward the community, whether intentional or not.

Edited by Henry d'Esterre Darby
No personal insults please.

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2 minutes ago, Henry d'Esterre Darby said:

I doubt anyone currently alive actually has been on board a ship in a capacity where they were required to navigate in open water using only a sextant, and a single inaccurate chronometer (though ships with Captains who were privately wealthy may have carried two or three).  Maturin explained fairly well above the capabilities of navigation at the time, and while there may be room for a compromise, Admin willing, it is safe to say the days of an exact, or near exact latitude AND longitude in this game are over.  Ships in this period were very frequently off course by hundreds (or thousands) of miles when weather or an accident with the timepiece prevented adequate observations from being made.  Given current and leeway, which couldn't be accounted for with a log board, course, and sextant observations, ships very frequently did not know exactly where they were.

I cannot agree with the first part of your comment, since every deck officer onboard a ship, whether naval or merchant, is required to understand the use of a sextant and chronograph. And while it is true that navigation during the 18th century was more art than science it still provided a usable indicator of a ships position and speed.

An in game navigation tool that automatically provided an exact position would not be necessary. A learnable navigation tool, with it's accuracy partly or predominantly dependent on the user would be ideal. But at the very minimum some type of mechanism for knowing the general position of your ship is an absolute must have.

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maturin    5,454
Just now, The Old Pretender said:

I cannot agree with the first part of your comment, since every deck officer onboard a ship, whether naval or merchant, is required to understand the use of a sextant and chronograph. And while it is true that navigation during the 18th century was more art than science it still provided a usable indicator of a ships position and speed.

Chronometers were not widely available in this period. 

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4 minutes ago, Kiithnaras said:

They are frustrating, time-wasting, and, ultimately, not enjoyable. I have, in fact, first-hand experience attempting to teach newer players these very things back when we did not have any navigational tools. I will say, with all honesty, that my efforts were pretty much wasted on them. 

I think this sums it up nicely. Certainly navigation was difficult, so was all manner of life at sea. In the realism v. gameplay tug of war is having players spend their time struggling to get from Point A to Point B considered necessary realism or does it add anything to gameplay? Consider a player who is new and with finite time to play per night. If they are spending 2 hours just struggling to get from Point A to Point B is that "Naval Action"? or is it Sailing Simulator 1767? Things like scurvy aren't rendered, nor are doldrums rendered as they don't add anything to the gameplay and would likely result in more frustration than not. Certainly it would be more "accurate" but it does not *add* anything to gameplay beyond raising the base difficulty and thus limiting the player pool. 

Removing the ability to locate yourself and a point on the map within reasonable and relatively untrained approximation seems counterproductive to overall gameplay in my opinion. 

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maturin    5,454
12 minutes ago, Hodo said:

Not true...

By 1825 the Royal Navy started routinely outfitting its vessels with Chronometers.  

They were available prior to that but expensive.  Seeing as this is a GAME, and we have things that would normally be expensive on our ships anyway, like extra stay sails, studding sails, copper plating, improved gun sites and training for our crews, every ship has a doctor on it, and we dont have to worry about dedicating cargo space to food, water, munitions, and powder.   I think giving every captain in game a  chronometer would be WELL within the realm of possibility.

The devs decide when things should be realistic, or not.

The game's timeframe spans a period that had no chronometers 50% of the time, and very rare chronometers restricted to large indiamen and a small minority of naval vessels for 30-40% of the time. Around the turn of the century the French and British navies had only a few dozen chronometers, and each ship required three.

All naval ships did carry extra staysails, studdingsails, copper plating and surgeons by the 1790s. 

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Cecil Selous    337

I still don't get it. How do you get lost in the first place? Don't you always know where you are sailing? Do you sail for 30 minutes and suddenly realise that you don't remeber where you started? Most of the time there is also no need to sail without sight of land. If I sail from Kingston to Christiansted than I know that I have to sail east. The first big fkn Island I pass can only be Hispaniola and the next one is puerto rico. Even if I sail completely out of sight of land, for whatever reason I should do that, I still know where east is and roughly where the islands and my destination are. They don't move, I will reach them if I continue my course.   The same if I want to go to on a long afk journey to Aves. I look for a good point to start, like bugle cay and set the course. And if you reach Aves it is a no brainer to reach every other port in the eastern part of the map by a simple use of the ingame compass.

Maybe the fact that you can't exactly calculate the time when you reach your destination is what makes people panic. Idk.

I actually don't care if the gps coordinates come back or not, but I simply dont get how the removal of it suddenly makes the game frustrating or unplayable, that there is such an outcry. It isn't rocket science ffs. 

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maturin    5,454
27 minutes ago, Hodo said:

So if ALL ships carried them then why dont all ships in game have them from the start?

Why is it an upgrade? 

Riddle me this. 

So you're saying that in-game ships need to pay extra for standards equipment and this is somehow an argument in favor of everyone having chronometers?

 

Quote

And that isnt even true.  The Fair American did not have copper plating neither did the Niagara. 

I said naval ships.

Not small vessels operated on a lake by a Third Rate naval power.

By the 1790s the major power plated the bottoms of essentially all their rated vessels.

 

Quote

If I am traveling LONG distances to someplace like Kidds Harbor which is NOT on the map, you kind of have to know what Lat-Long line it is at, or you could sail around in the Atlantic for real life WEEKS trying to find that place.  

I'm confused. You appear to be the only person treating the lines as a non-cosmetic feature.

If you are sailing north to Bermuda from Hispaniola, the existence of a latitude line without GPS does exactly nothing to help you.

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BossaNova    2

great patch, i really like it

But why did you remove GPS ? What is the beenfit for removing the GPS ? The old system was working nice.

Every naval office in the 19th century worth his commission was able to get a fix on the sun with sextant or get a fix on some stars with a precise chronometer and some good maps. So give us a sextant or the precise and correct angle of the sun at a given time to get a position fix. Of course it would be much easier to tell the captains their position.

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maturin    5,454
2 minutes ago, Hodo said:

It is not only easier to give directions to someone who doesnt know where Savannah Georgia is by just saying it is at 32w and 86n.  Just saying.

Right, it can describe locations. But it doesn't help you get to Bermuda or find anything out of sight of land.

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BossaNova    2
5 hours ago, admin said:

the coordinate conversation can be closed Captains. We released the game without them 80000 players played without them and were happy.
we tested it with coordinates too and i don't like it. 

Getting lost is a magic moment. And we plan to stick to this decision now.

i don't think 79.998 players bought this game because no position fix was implemented, when I bought this game GPS was implementent.

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Seriously?? no coordinates? wtf guys?

do you know that in fact all the navies had devices to measure apporximate coordinates.. if not then go read about the Sextant .. 

to not know where the hell you are is COMPLETELY UNREALISTIC .. if you want this game to be set in the dark ages when there were almost no means to find out your location at sea then do so with everything .. you can't claim to be in the 18th century and not have the BASIC navigational instruments found on every ship .. no one would go in open sea without one 

 

(post moved from patch notes)

Edited by John Sheppard

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BungeeLemming    1,484

I am redirecting all the GPS discussion from the devs announcement.

Please use this thread to discuss your issues or good thoughts on the GPS removal.

 

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Ok this is crazy.. you guys who say that it was good that they removed the coords system.. have you ever heard of a device called the  SEXTANT?? it was pretty much on every damn ship heading to open ocean by the 18th century and they infact could pinpoint their location on the map within few miles 

Those of you who say "Look on map pick a heading and it's as simple as that" and think that this is how it was done in reality just showing their ignorance .. let me tell you something.. this will work only for short jurneys (a few hundred miles at most) .. after that it's quite impossible to arrive where you actually wanted to without constant course corrections .. if you infact look at the map and attempt to get a heading and sail on it you will end up hundred of miles sideways of your destination .. for many reasons :

1: you will never be able to sail in a straight line for the entire journey as the wind does not always blow in the same direction for weeks

2: the ocean has quite a lot of currents flowing in various directions that will take you away from where you want to go without even noticing it 

3: the maps weren't really that accurate and there were no calculators .. so even if you're off by 1 degree on the compass (assuming that you have magically perfect wind and no currents) after a 1000 miles you'll probably be a hundred or 2 away from your destination or might just run aground at night .. that's why the kept checking their location whenever possible even more than once per 24hours..

 

Edited by John Sheppard

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ShereKhan    14
2 hours ago, maturin said:

Enough. Your attempts to somehow tie this to hours played are very weak. The ships go the same speed whether you have GPS or not.

 

This vaunted "navigation" that supposedly makes me a super l33t grognard no-lifer is as simple as looking at the map, estimating the bearing of my destination, and then sailing there AFK.

Anyone with a Middle School education can do this and do it well. Even by eyeballing the compass bearing and setting the course with the sticky laggy OW controls, your margin of error is small enough to cross the whole Gulf and hit your destination within visual range.

Which is much better than most historical captains did, even with sextants. They had to account for highly variable speed, currents, leeway, helmsman error, magnetic variation, different courses, a 'world' that was ten times larger...

Even with no GPS and no in-game map we have it a lot easier.

Well......if even a middle schooler can get around without GPS and it's so easy without it, why do so many want to prevent something that makes a bunch of others a little more comfortable.......maybe those folks that didn't graduate 6th grade shouldn't play with your favorite toy(thinkin Jethro Bodine).......just playing devils advocate here....sayin

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OK guys, I am going to repeat more or less what I said in another thread on this topic, pre-wipe.

Give it a chance and test it properly before complaining but recognise that, for now, we are were we are, so deal with it.

Give constructive feedback.

My personal view, having done it before, is It aint rocket science to eyeball a course.

It is also my view that the on map grid should have been retained to make it even easier.

I think that, as a compromise, for low level captains, at the next patch the GPS can sort of be returned by having it give an approximate position (not to the decimal point but to the whole numbers only).

Bottom line - it is the way it is - try it and see how you go before piling on the salt.

'nuff said.

 

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I assume that sudden reversion to dead reckoning navigation was just one of the things that the wipe bolloxed up and will be fixed sooner or later.

Because if it isn't, this change is, to put it mildly, unrealistic. Sailing across oceans by dead reckoning, while appealing to some masochistic "LOOKATMEIMSOHARDCORE" types here, is not something that was done in the Age of Sail. Maps, coordinates and precise navigation existed. There is zero reason not to have it available in game.

If it bunches someone's panties, then perhaps it should be made optional, but not entirely scrapped. And no, using third-party tools should not be a viable solution.

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Thonys    350

i hope so this is undoable 

 

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