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Big Patch #10: Map / Coordinates Feedback [Heavily Moderated]

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1 hour ago, admin said:

more players enjoyed the game on release without coordinates. coordinates were a mistake. 
this can help a little bit.  http://burningsail.com

Thanks.  The current game map is very fine.  

It seems reasonable if all players use just a tiny bit of skill to navigate.  Very easy to do.

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1 minute ago, Hodo said:

What we currently have is guesswork.  

I would be better off using this as a map.

I disagree.  With the absence of wind or current drift it is very easy to travel from one point to another with just a tiny bit of skill.  Very accurately.

There are other maps that are better than the one you have shown.

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5 minutes ago, Kiithnaras said:

I have mixed feelings on the removal of GPS. I feel like a small number of the overall player base were highly vocal in the "Magic Moments" thread regarding the excitement and mystique they felt with having to navigate by landmarks and rough judgement. Unfortunately, you haven't removed GPS: By using F11, players can still acquire coordinate data in order to use math or external tools to calculate their position and desired heading. All this change has resulted in is a higher barrier of entry for more casual players to enjoy the game. I would strongly advise against the removal of GPS without some other in-game means of navigation tool, such as a map compass and protractor (enter tool mode, click start point, drag to end point, get distance and heading, does not show your current position though). Navigating blind is not for everyone.

It would also be helpful if the compass lines intersected the center of the ship so that we could set a more accurate course. 

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12 minutes ago, The Old Pretender said:

 

It would also be helpful if the compass lines intersected the center of the ship so that we could set a more accurate course. 

It would be helpful if we had many things but we don't.  In all honesty how hard was it for the guys that don't like the GPS to not push the "M" key and use it?   Until there was other means to navigate properly in game they shouldn't had removed any of it.  But hay 8000 players apparently liked it without and they only reason they left was they put it in game apparently.....

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2 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

It would be helpful if we had many things but we don't.  In all honesty how hard was it for the guys that don't like the GPS to not push the "M" key and use it?   Until there was other means to navigate properly in game they shouldn't had removed any of it.  But hay 8000 players apparently liked it without and they only reason they left was they put it in game apparently.....

Just trying to get a foot in the door.

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I have no problem with the removable of coordinates or the grid.

I do wish that a movable compass - placed on top of the map - would be added. I imagine a captain would lay out his map in his cabin, place his compass on his current port of departure or the known island or city that he was sailing past and then decide his best trajectory.

Before coordinates were introduced to the map, I made a hand drawn compass - I drew it with a fine point, black magic marker on top of a clear see-through sheet protector - I would bring up the map and place the sheet protector flat against the computer screen with the center of the compass located on the port I was in or the island I was sailing by, and was able to navigate around the map with no problems. I found every shipwreck from sealed bottles this way. 

This one simple addition - a movable compass to the map - should be all that is needed for navigation. And as Vernon Merrill said, when you're totally lost sail West (some players prefer Southwest) as the quickest way to find land and your location.

Edited by Captiva
wording

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2 hours ago, Capt. Lucky Luke said:

Gotta love getting lost in the storm with no coords. Ending up 2 ports away from home makes for a fun encounter. :)

 

Lucky Lucky is right.  Getting lost in the Caribbean is romantical.  

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What I don't understand for everyone bitching about the removal of GPS (and I'm someone who wanted to keep it).

Why don't you just type some random item into the Trader tool (Coal is pretty popular right now :)) and sort ports by distance.

Edited by Remus

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4 minutes ago, Remus said:

What I don't understand for everyone bitching about the removal of GPS (and I'm someone who wanted to keep it).

Why don't you just type some random item into the Trader tool (Coal is pretty popular right now :)) and sort ports by distance.

That would require actual trigonometry.

Given that reading a compass is beyond them...

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2 minutes ago, Remus said:

Waht I don't understand for everyone bitching about the removal of GPS (and I'm someone who wanted to keep it).

Why don't you just type some random item into the Trader tool (Coal is pretty popular right now :)) and sort ports by distance.

how does that help you navigate?  There is nothing in game to tell you distance you have traveled other than in days at sea.  

Speaking of coal where the hell is it for pirates.  It says Ocean Bright but it's not produce there.  They moved every thing around from testbed so got to figure out where every thing is.  This grinding in a basic cutter is getting old real faster after doing it on the testbed.  Would been nice if we got a little gold to start out with. Now I ahve 4 ships I can't do anythign with cause I don't have the crew, cannons or any repairs.....being cursed with 40 crew blows.

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1 minute ago, maturin said:

That would require actual trigonometry.

Given that reading a compass is beyond them...

Not trigonometry. You have distances, not bearings, so you draw circles round the ports.

2 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

how does that help you navigate?  There is nothing in game to tell you distance you have traveled other than in days at sea. 

There never was. And I entirely agree there should be.

GPS told you where you are, not where you are going. Trader tool does the same, with only a little more work.

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6 minutes ago, maturin said:

That would require actual trigonometry.

Given that reading a compass is beyond them...

Exactly. Not everyone is as smart or practiced as you. Having charts without lat/lon lines is beyond absurd, too, like @Hodo said. By expecting this behavior of everyone, you act as though you're some sort of superior special snowflake who deserves to have everyone conform to what you believe is the right idea and right way, even though it is, very likely, in the vast minority of opinion.

Edited by Kiithnaras

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10 minutes ago, maturin said:

That would require actual trigonometry.

Given that reading a compass is beyond them...

You know you keep insulting folks, but show me exactly where a compass is on this map? And show me exactly how I can plot my course or know where I am if I'm not in port.  Cause as soon as I leave port.

atLQQd9.jpg

 

This is all you get....oh look I'm half way to Kidd's but I have no clue to check if I"m on course or not cause there is no in game navigation tools to check where my coords might be to see if I'm off course or even close.

9rMabfY.jpg

Edited by Sir Texas Sir

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3 minutes ago, Kiithnaras said:

Exactly. Not everyone is as smart or practiced as you. Having charts without lat/lon lines is beyond absurd, too, like @Hodo said. By expecting this behavior of everyone, you act as though you're some sort of superior special snowflake who deserves to have everyone conform to what you believe is the right idea and right way, even though it is, very likely, in the vast minority of opinion.

How do lat and long lines help you if you have nothing to tell you what your lat and long are? Or can you not determine north, south, east and west by eye?

Incidentally, the lat and long lines looked wrong on the old map. The map has to be Mercator projection )or one of its derivatives) for compass bearings to work, and I know there's not much difference at Caribbean latitudes, but the lines of latitude should have been closer together than the lines of longitude.

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@Sir Texas Sir has the right of it. We're not asking to know exactly where we are at all times. Just give us the same sort of navigational tools that were available back in the 1820s, not those that only existed prior to the 1420s (i.e. Magnetic Compass and Dead Reckoning)

@Remus Those help by, SHOCKER, enabling a player to visually do trigonometric navigation without the aid of screen overlays or external programs to determine heading.

Edited by Kiithnaras

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5 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

This is all you get....oh look I'm half way to Kidd's but I have no clue to check if I"m on course or not cause there is no in game navigation tools to check where my coords might be to see if I'm off course or even close.

That's why I say use the Trader tool. It will tell you whether you are closer to March Harbour, Wilmington or Somerset. And Kdds for that matter.

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2 minutes ago, Remus said:

That's why I say use the Trader tool. It will tell you whether you are closer to March Harbour, Wilmington or Somerset. And Kdds for that matter.

So, lemme see if I'm understanding your ass-backwards logic. You're saying that, since our ability to navigate like a normal person, whether that be an 1820s method or a 2020s method, has been removed - yet we psychically know how far we are from every single port in the game - we should just accept things as they are and use the twisted, backwards method instead of just using methods that have already been in practice for hundreds of years (or decades, w/rt GPS)?

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1 minute ago, Remus said:

That's why I say use the Trader tool. It will tell you whether you are closer to March Harbour, Wilmington or Somerset. And Kdds for that matter.

That not true navigation though.  They had way more tools at there time to do better than that.

1 minute ago, Kiithnaras said:

@Sir Texas Sir has the right of it. We're not asking to know exactly where we are at all times. Just give us the same sort of navigational tools that were available back in the 1820s, not those that only existed prior to the 1420s (i.e. Magnetic Compass and Dead Reckoning)

We even gave them many ways to fix this.  Take 72.35 and drop the last part off it.  So it's 72.3 so it's not as accurate.  It's not like the MAP HAD A BIG RED DOT.  You had to still check your coords and figure out your location.  A lot of these guys saying it was better without have been playing the game so long (including myself) that they prob know where most things are by memory.  I actually can prob get to kids without looking at the map cause I done it some many times from Atwood, but I been playing the game a long time.  A new player would have no clue about this.  Why should they be punished cause they aren't experts in the game?  Hell even I get off course or lost some times too.  The only complaint I keep hearing from them was they where so freaked about revenge gank fleets being called out and camping a battle.  Really how often does this happen and more than likely it's going to happen any way as most battles are out side ports they can just leave and hang out until you pop out of battle.

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5 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

 I actually can prob get to kids without looking at the map cause I done it some many times from Atwood, but I been playing the game a long time.  A new player would have no clue about this.  Why should they be punished cause they aren't experts in the game?

When I was a new player there was nothing, as there is now. I was worried about not being able to find my way back to Jamaica the first time I left port, and honestly it was exciting.

Having said that, I do like the compromise that they only tell us which of the big squares we're in from the previous map, but not more detail than that.  If not, then give us a way to plot a course on the map.

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23 minutes ago, snowy2 said:

When I was a new player there was nothing, as there is now. I was worried about not being able to find my way back to Jamaica the first time I left port, and honestly it was exciting.

Having said that, I do like the compromise that they only tell us which of the big squares we're in from the previous map, but not more detail than that.  If not, then give us a way to plot a course on the map.

I remember those times and it was horrible. I have 4 clan members leave because of it. They said game with long travel times and no navigation help is not what they are looking for. All of us pvpers and good friends. We need Grid + Compass on world map. We need to coordinate and plan, call for help and be sure friends come to help. No GPS takes all that away. 

Please add these simple tools back and don't force us go invest money into someone who can create Naval game we are looking for and someone who cares about new players. Oh yeah, This is what Admin wrote about GPS - >> I << did not like it.... 

On top of all that they suggest burningsail map, someones work instead of creating a beautiful map with all needed tools themselves, what kind of Devs are they?

Edited by Ned Low

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2 minutes ago, snowy2 said:

When I was a new player there was nothing, as there is now. I was worried about not being able to find my way back to Jamaica the first time I left port, and honestly it was exciting.

Having said that, I do like the compromise that they only tell us which of the big squares we're in from the previous map, but not more detail than that.  If not, then give us a way to plot a course on the map.

The problem is the devs want to make changes and not give those tools.   For me I hated not having a clue where I was and never could figure out the F11 thing and had a hell of a time reading burningseas and figuring it out.  I would hug the coast down to until I was just west of the Bahamas before I would head over to the shallows and stay in there with land in site at all times.  Than again I was running around in nothing more than a snow.  Once I moved up I wanted to get into the big open waters.  That was about the times they put int eh coords.  Once they did that I pretty much covered every port of the map since with no worries of getting lost as I could easily chart and figure out where I was if I did get lost and get back on my course.  Not every one is going to have the same experience but we should not be making a game for the very small 10% elite minority, we should be making the game for the 90% majority of the players that will be our main player base.

Among of tons of other issues The Division found this out to be a bad way to design there game.  They went with trying to please the 10% elite and ended up running off a good majority of there players.  Once they rebalanced things for the other 90% of the majority of there player many of them came back.  The problem is the damage was all ready done with those issues and many other things that they didn't get back a lot of them either.

I love every thing else on this patch, but this one thing, which wasn't in testbed so it was a blind side and seems they took the change off a bunch of elite players and many of them haven't played in months as to what would get them back.  They are a minority of the players so not the main voice.

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At sea the ability to be able to determine your latitude and longitude within a few degrees is so completely necessary to successful navigation that it should not even be a matter for discussion. The fact that we are currently arguing it's merits is beyond my comprehension and is in my opinion an extremely poor reflection on some of the persons playing this game. Anyone who suggests that dead reckoning is a proper substitute for knowing ones general position has most definitely never been onboard a ship in an official capacity and it is highly possible that they have never actually seen a ship.

I am currently on PVP Global sailing from Las Tortugas to Cartagena de Indias, I have been at sea for 8 days. By using the trader tool I know that I am 129k from Cartagena but I do not know if it is to my port or starboard. If I turn off course to intercept an enemy or need to log off for various reasons, what method would I use to determine my location and therefore my course to any given destination when I log back on? To remove GPS, latittude and longitude, and not provide a means of navigation, will increase difficulty in the game, but it will do so at the cost of realism and authenticity.

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Just now, The Old Pretender said:

At sea the ability to be able to determine your latitude and longitude within a few degrees is so completely necessary to successful navigation that it should not even be a matter for discussion. The fact that we are currently arguing it's merits is beyond my comprehension and is in my opinion an extremely poor reflection on some of the persons playing this game. Anyone who suggests that dead reckoning is a proper substitute for knowing ones general position has most definitely never been onboard a ship in an official capacity and it is highly possible that they have never actually seen a ship.

I am currently on PVP Global sailing from Las Tortugas to Cartagena de Indias, I have been at sea for 8 days. By using the trader tool I know that I am 129k from Cartagena but I do not know if it is to my port or starboard. If I turn off course to intercept an enemy or need to log off for various reasons, what method would I use to determine my location and therefore my course to any given destination when I log back on? To remove GPS, latittude and longitude, and not provide a means of navigation, will increase difficulty in the game, but it will do so at the cost of realism and authenticity.

I doubt anyone currently alive actually has been on board a ship in a capacity where they were required to navigate in open water using only a sextant, and a single inaccurate chronometer (though ships with Captains who were privately wealthy may have carried two or three).  Maturin explained fairly well above the capabilities of navigation at the time, and while there may be room for a compromise, Admin willing, it is safe to say the days of an exact, or near exact latitude AND longitude in this game are over.  Ships in this period were very frequently off course by hundreds (or thousands) of miles when weather or an accident with the timepiece prevented adequate observations from being made.  Given current and leeway, which couldn't be accounted for with a log board, course, and sextant observations, ships very frequently did not know exactly where they were.

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Yes how are supposed to navigate in open water if we do not know even our own position? How about an Sexton option where we can stop and shoot our position so we can manually plot it?  Seriously if you are so gung ho on realism than we should have Sexton option minimually. How is one supposed to sail to a place like Bermuda or Kidd Island when you cannot even plot your course.   Not saying give us the grid back but you have to give us back our current position. 

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Anyone who suggests that dead reckoning is a proper substitute for knowing ones general position has most definitely never been onboard a ship in an official capacity and it is highly possible that they have never actually seen a ship.

lawl

I guess Admiral Anson and Sir Frances Drake were just a pair of lubbers, then. Because they found longitude by dead reckoning.

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