Testbed - Demasting & Accuracy cap

[Liq]

I've been testing demasing on the testbed for a bit.
There seem to be quite a few new +accuracy upgrades / skill books. The ones a clanmate has found so far are the following:

• "Table Of Parts Of Ships Of War" -10% Dispersion
• "Flag Officer" -8% Dispersion
• "Sir William Congreve's Sights" -5% Dispersion

Additionally, if running carronades, the perk "Carronade Expert" lowers the Dispersion by another 5%.

All these buffs combined result in an accuracy bonus of +28%.

Now, I'm wondering, is there a cap for dispersion? Because I think the point of Carronades is to be somewhat in-accurate close up damage dealers and they're not meant to be laser guided missiles.
Combined with the buff regarding demasting (It takes 7 32pdr hits to demast a surp's main mast, see the video below), and the repair time being upped to 15 minutes, demasting might actually become a more often used thing to do in battle. We will know once it goes to live servers I'm very curious to see.

(In this Video I didn't have any accuracy buffing upgrades / skill books, so imagine if someone stacks all possible upgrades together, that might result in some crazy sniper action.)

 

Edited May 9, 2017 by Liquicity

[Vernon Merrill]

No, I'm saying that a good OW tag allows for enough space for you to examine your opponents armament when the instance starts and adjust your tactics accordingly.  I think more-lightly built ships have, even in the historical record, used their superior speed/maneuverability to defeat a heavier ship.  You'd be a fool to yardarm to yardarm with a ship designed to out-DPS you.  

In my case, I would try and tag upwind and shred his sails the entire time he was beating upwind to try and get near me.  Then I would attempt to remain at a range where my longs would pen and his carros would not.  

THATS the game.  Not just angling/bashing/tanking.

[Cmdr RideZ]

1 hour ago, Liquicity said:

I think demasting is a bit more than just 'point and click'; You're risking a lot by dedicating yourself to taking down masts. If you take too long / miss too much, you will pay the prize.

IF you miss.  When people actually start shooting masts, I believe they will hit as well.  I have been playing many games and probably you as well, and I have to say that mast sniping is far from difficult.  It is not like it would be one of the most difficult things in gaming.

 

1 hour ago, seanjo said:

How do you even take down a mast? I've tried many times and just can't be THAT accurate.

I am not an expert, but I can give you a starting point. Others may have and probably do have better advices.  Notice -> A starting point.

 

Easy way is to get a friend and take a duel with him.  You can start by just being still, right next to each other, but still with some distance that you can actually shoot masts and not hulls.

1. Red aiming bar so high that you will hit masts and not hull

2. Follow aiming zone, that is draw on water or hovering there, whichever are your graphical settings.  Use it to aim. (Hovering is probably better, as then waves are not affecting to your aim)

3. Check which cannon port is closest to the mast, you can check from birds eye view.  When you look from side now, you know that the mast is close to that specific cannon port.  (Draw a line from mast to hull side, that is the starting point to aim, use cannon ports to remember that spot)

4. Aim to that cannon port and shoot

5. Follow how balls fly from front and behind your target mast.  Fix your aim, you will eventually hit.

6. Remember that you have to fix your aim a bit every time, as the next cannon is not firing from the same place.

7. Practice

 

Sail forward with your friend as well, you have to aim slightly differently.  You will eventually get pretty good at it, I am sure about it.

To be honest, I wish they change this.  Makes no sense to practice something like this when the game can offer so much more interesting stuff.

 

I hope you all get good, so devs will finally understand to fix this shit.

Edited May 10, 2017 by Cmdr RideZ

[Cmdr RideZ]

37 minutes ago, jodgi said:

I don't understand. How can hull bashing (including crew and cannon loss) be more interesting and challenging than keeping an eye on hull AND sails AND crew AND masts?

If you hit a mast with every ball you fire, so you are a real pro in this.  Do you really care if you have the wind or not?

But this is sure not the only one.

[jodgi]

1 hour ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

If you hit a mast with every ball you fire, so you are a real pro in this.  Do you really care if you have the wind or not?

But this is sure not the only one.

?!

I do not hit a mast with every ball, far from it. I'm working on becoming as good at it as possible, though. Wind is very, very important.

The last duels I did we both worked on disabling masts, but the fights ended in crew disparity and boarding before any mast actually came down. Look at Liq's OP vid: 7-8 32pdr balls to break a mast is not easy against someone who's "protecting" his masts.

[Siegfried]

12 minutes ago, jodgi said:

?!

I do not hit a mast with every ball, far from it. I'm working on becoming as good at it as possible, though. Wind is very, very important.

The last duels I did we both worked on disabling masts, but the fights ended in crew disparity and boarding before any mast actually came down. Look at Liq's OP vid: 7-8 32pdr balls to break a mast is not easy against someone who's "protecting" his masts.

But the only way that you can "protect" your mast is flip the ship with the keel up.

[jodgi]

Just now, Siegfried said:

But the only way that you can "protect" your mast is flip the ship with the keel up.

lel

You remember how well I was able to protect my reno masts that time down in Mexico? Sheesh... Still have nightmares

[Siegfried]

6 minutes ago, jodgi said:

lel

You remember how well I was able to protect my reno masts that time down in Mexico? Sheesh... Still have nightmares

Yes I remember well that duels. Stern camping is the only way, but your mast fell anyway. I hadn't practice in shoot mast that day, but was the only thing I could to do and it worked.

BTW Some guys don't believe me when I say that a PvE guy can to fight very well against a PvP player.

[Cmdr RideZ]

39 minutes ago, jodgi said:

?!

I do not hit a mast with every ball, far from it. I'm working on becoming as good at it as possible, though. Wind is very, very important.

I am not speaking from you, nor from Liq.

If a guy could cut a mast with 1-3 broadsides.  That is pretty fast in Naval Action, at least I think so. And with 3 broadsides, I seriously think there are people who can do that, and not just one guy.

Wind is something that can give you an advantage, but having the wind does nothing vs mast sniping.  Or does it?  So basically mast sniping is removing this element pretty well.  So yes, it is lowering skill cap.  Sure, good players probably still understand to get benefits from wind..  It is just that what ever you do with the wind, and other guy is 2x better at mast sniping than you are (and does not understand at all what wind means) -> He is going to win that fight.

This is not decrease skill cap?  It is kinda moving it from all that is interesting in the age of sail, in Naval Combat, to mast sniping.  It is like, duh, are you devs freaking serious here?!

[DeRuyter]

3 hours ago, Hodo said:

 

The fact is mast sniping was a thing in real life.  It was the key difference between the French Navy and English Royal Navy gunnery tactics.

The British would concentrate on hull shots, along the gun decks and weather decks in hopes of causing casualties and damage to guns.   The French would target sails, masts, and rigging in hopes of disabling their prey.

Well not really, the mast "sniping" we have in game is a bit too accurate to compare it to the French tactic of firing on the uproll to disable rigging. They are not aiming individual shots at masts, rather they are firing a broadside high and at close range they used dismantling shot (chain and bar shot) to take out standing rigging and sail control lines (running rigging). As noted above by @victor and @VictusB rigging was also damaged as a byproduct of broadsides generally targeted at the hull as well. You could say there were aimed shots during a chase but the goal was to disable smaller spars to slow the target. IMO it should be the top masts and other smaller spars that are shot down more often than the entire mast at the deck.

Of course in game we have repairs that can counter mast sniping, repairs of damage that IRL they could only do in a shipyard.

[victor]

6 hours ago, Sir Joseph Blaine said:

THATS the game.  

Boldly said mate!

We all bow to your incredible skill, knowledge and power.

PS: to keep the distance you need to be faster than him at that given wind angle (but that's a detail of course) 

 

Edited May 10, 2017 by victor

[Sir Texas Sir]

7 hours ago, Sir Joseph Blaine said:

I'll be damned if I ever let someone with carros EVER get that close to my vessel....  If I do, I've already lost the battle, in my mind....   

Yah lets try this in a real fight.  He would never be that close and use his longs if  he had them against the guy with the Carros.  Also lets try this with a normal person pings.  I know you guys say ping doesn't matter, but BS I can tell a big diffrence from my ping on PvP2 of around 40-50 to PvP1/Testbed that is in the 140-160.  You have a slight delay and that makes it harder to get those shots.  Than again you where pretty much at point blank range to him. He just had to pull a bit distance between ya'll and you wouldn't be penning those mast.   He for hell shouldn't be going at battle sails at 100m from you side by side.  Some one deserves to get demast quickly if that is that what they do in a real battle.  

 

[Hethwill]

ping doesn't matter. has been proven by scandinavians playing on us server with 160 ping

rest of " what if " is correct.

[Hethwill]

While it is true what you bring, the fellows did jump the ball and did the specifically same with 160ms as they do normally with 40. *shrugs*

Anyway, just a sidenote, many EU fellows play on PvP2, let's not fall into generalization, they know exactly what is to play with US ping.

[CatSwift]

1 hour ago, The Red Duke said:

While it is true what you bring, the fellows did jump the ball and did the specifically same with 160ms as they do normally with 40. *shrugs*

Anyway, just a sidenote, many EU fellows play on PvP2, let's not fall into generalization, they know exactly what is to play with US ping.

I think every aussie player in this will probably disagree with you that ping does not matter.

[Cmdr RideZ]

1 hour ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

I know you guys say ping doesn't matter, but BS I can tell a big diffrence from my ping on PvP2 of around 40-50 to PvP1/Testbed that is in the 140-160.  You have a slight delay and that makes it harder to get those shots.

I agree, it matters when you are sniping masts.

[Snoopy]

Demasting needs to be viable, otherwise a whole dimension of PvP is lost, not only the fun of not knowing the enemy's preferred tactic in advance in the fight itself but in agonizing over the trade offs in ship building/fitting. Hull only meta will mean there is little point in using anything but HP bonus etc.

Viable doesn't mean it needs to be easy. High risk/reward.

[jodgi]

6 hours ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

but having the wind does nothing vs mast sniping.  Or does it?

 

6 hours ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

good players probably still understand to get benefits from wind..

 

6 hours ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

what ever you do with the wind, and other guy is 2x better at mast sniping than you are (and does not understand at all what wind means) -> He is going to win that fight.

Red herring.

Noone who knows about the wind gauge is going to let someone walk over him with mast sniping. The actual shooting at masts is a mechanical skill you can practise against bots. The good tag, maneuvering, timing and use of wind to force the initiative and advantage is a deep skill I still feel I'm learning. I truly can't fit "low skill cap" into my experience with duels and attempted dismasting.

[TommyShelby]

100% accuracy buff sounds a bit over the top lol. 

As for the discussion going on about ping... I played a bit on PvP 2 (Going for demasting) and honestly the 200 ping difference i have between PvP 1 and PvP 2 i barely notice, after sniping masts for something like 10 minutes i had learned to compensate for the tiny tiny tiny delay. 

Another good example of why ping doesn't matter.
SeaWolf is a US player, he has been playing on PvP EU for as long as i can remember. He is one of the best demasters you'll find in NA (Ofcourse, i am better :p) and his ping is 300 or so. 

So please don't give me the crap of "I can feel a HUGE difference and its so much harder to demast when i have 150 ping". 

 

6 hours ago, Snoopy said:

Demasting needs to be viable, otherwise a whole dimension of PvP is lost, not only the fun of not knowing the enemy's preferred tactic in advance in the fight itself but in agonizing over the trade offs in ship building/fitting. Hull only meta will mean there is little point in using anything but HP bonus etc.

Viable doesn't mean it needs to be easy. High risk/reward.

I agree with Snoopy 100%. Is there still some balance to be done? Sure. But we have to do this with baby steps and not the usual "All or nothing" approach that the devs like to apply (The apply it with good reasoning though!). 

We can start off with: 10% Mast HP increase. 

[Sir Texas Sir]

1 hour ago, TommyShelby said:

100% accuracy buff sounds a bit over the top lol. 

As for the discussion going on about ping... I played a bit on PvP 2 (Going for demasting) and honestly the 200 ping difference i have between PvP 1 and PvP 2 i barely notice, after sniping masts for something like 10 minutes i had learned to compensate for the tiny tiny tiny delay. 

Another good example of why ping doesn't matter.
SeaWolf is a US player, he has been playing on PvP EU for as long as i can remember. He is one of the best demasters you'll find in NA (Ofcourse, i am better :p) and his ping is 300 or so. 

So please don't give me the crap of "I can feel a HUGE difference and its so much harder to demast when i have 150 ping". 

 

I agree with Snoopy 100%. Is there still some balance to be done? Sure. But we have to do this with baby steps and not the usual "All or nothing" approach that the devs like to apply (The apply it with good reasoning though!). 

We can start off with: 10% Mast HP increase. 

But see you learn to compensate.  I do the same on PvP1 when I go for mast. It's not as easy but I can work it as long as I'm not hit by ping spikes.  But that is learning to live with it.  

If folks want to say it doesn't matter go look at the @Jeheil vs @OlavDeng2 in wappens.  Play both videos side by side and you can see the delay from when they push and fire.  There is almost a sec and half delay on poor Jeheil side vs Olav.  Again a good player will learn to compensate for this, but it still proves ping maters.  Some one with a good ping or connection will not have to compensate and will have an easier time.

But we are talking about Vets that been playing a very long time compared to the casual players.   We are only about the 10% of the total players and most of them have no clue how to demast.  Just cause a small percentage can do it with ease doesn't mean we need to nerf things.  Remember the game should be based on the average standards not those of the elite.  I don't really see any issues with the demasting in game right now as is.  Cause not every one will be able to do it.  Not every one will have a totally accuracy built out ship either.  Just like not every one had all gold board mods...well most of us did...lol

 

Now lets redo that video at 250 and lets not sit in a straight line the whole time and tell me how easy it is to demast each other?    

[Cmdr RideZ]

7 hours ago, Snoopy said:

Demasting needs to be viable, otherwise a whole dimension of PvP is lost, not only the fun of not knowing the enemy's preferred tactic in advance in the fight itself but in agonizing over the trade offs in ship building/fitting. Hull only meta will mean there is little point in using anything but HP bonus etc.

Viable doesn't mean it needs to be easy. High risk/reward.

Right now is Mast Meta. I think that all my combat ships on Live have Reinforced Masts, HP bonus but for masts instead.

When people learn to hit masts, I think high risk is not that high.

When we have a small playerbase, majority not reading the forum nor understanding what is the meta, we are good.  We are double good as most do not know it and benefits will fall for a small group.  Eventually they will know, and everyone will be shooting masts.

So yes, there is a change that we are short sighted here.

[Cmdr RideZ]

8 hours ago, jodgi said:

1. The actual shooting at masts is a mechanical skill you can practise against bots.

2. The good tag, maneuvering, timing and use of wind to force the initiative and advantage is a deep skill I still feel I'm learning.

I would like that the emphasis is on #2, not just winning with a good mechanical skill.

I am also learning #2, and I believe that everyone is, it is the best part of Naval Action if asked from me.  I actually think that you cannot ever learn everything from #2.  You cannot mechanically learn it vs bots.

Right now, if you are really good at #1, it basically means that you do not need #2.  The most difficult thing in NA is the #2, not the #1.  #1 brings the skill cap down as you can basically forget #2, if you are really good at #1.

#1, you do not have wind, nor you have speed, nor you have anything, nor you know anything.  But you still see your enemies masts and as you are good at sniping you shoot those off and will win.

The same reason why I was against mad rake damage, I was definitely in minority here.  It is a mechanical skill that can be learned, a one trick pony tactic.  It was so devastating that risking for it turned to be more important than #2.

In Real Life, if anything that I have read is true, #2 was the most important thing.  If we make sure that is always the case in NA as well, we should be getting realistic battle results.  I would be also happy to be honest

I said there Hull Meta, as that would make #2 to be very important.  There would not be shortcut victories.

When devs introduced this mad rake damage, they were happy when they got info from field that some players were able to win 1vs2 for example.  They wanted that skill matters, which is cool.  This was still a fail if asked from me.  The game was a lot about #2, and there were already people who were able to win 1vs2 just by using #2.  Also there was people using bow/stern tanking, which was lame.  Lame part was fixed and I am ok with that.  Winning 1vs2 was not still very common, as most did not understand anything about #2.  But the fact that people did not understand to use #2 (Still dont), should not have been a reason to bring simple one trick pony rake/snipe tactics in NA.

[Norfolk nChance]

 

So secret to De-masting.....? IT's ALL IN THE TURN....

Watch me get taken apart by one of the best in the business....

 

 

 

Now watch his turning maual sails video... towards the end look at how he aims and talks about it. Ten minutes in....

 

 

Now try it... its hard but it works everytime.... 

 

 

Norfolk

 

 

 

 

 

[Cmdr RideZ]

1st mast down at 4.5 minutes

2nd mast down at 8.5 minutes

3rd mast down at 10 minutes

 

I seriously do not understand why we have to even talk about this.

[jodgi]

2 hours ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

Right now, if you are really good at #1, it basically means that you do not need #2.

This is where you and me part ways.

2 hours ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

...rake damage, I was definitely in minority here.  It is a mechanical skill that can be learned, a one trick pony tactic.  It was so devastating that risking for it turned to be more important than #2.

Anyone fairly good at #2 can deny you good rakes, and that makes the "one trick pony" a complete donkey. I'm not theorycrafting, I'm talking from my own experience fighting the best.

 

2 hours ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

info from field that some players were able to win 1vs2 for example.

Outlier statistics. Winning 1vs2 is a leap year and full moon thing. To do that you have to get really lucky meeting two very incompetent opponents.

[Cmdr RideZ]

1 hour ago, jodgi said:

This is where you and me part ways.

Anyone fairly good at #2 can deny you good rakes, and that makes the "one trick pony" a complete donkey. I'm not theorycrafting, I'm talking from my own experience fighting the best.

Gets heavy to explain if you do not even try to understand my point.