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Alternatives to the removal of endresult screen


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37 minutes ago, Fenris said:

Would be maybe the best.

2,5 minutes are maybe too much, 90 seconds would do aswell i think.

All the revenge fleet needs to do is surround your location and get upwind of you. 90 Second invulnerability will do nothing, it didn't work before. And 90 Seconds isn't enough time to log off, so it solves nothing considering lag, give it 2 minutes. 

Edited by Neptune
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If we get a 2-2,5 minute invisibility/invulnerability timer to allow logoff after a battle, then I would suggest that the timer only works if you stand still/do not raise sails. When you drop into OW, as soon as you raise your sails, turn your ship, or whatever, the invisibility/invulnerability is cancelled. This would stop players from being able to do invisible/invulnerable, safe sailing, and would prevent invisibility-ganks where people use their invisibility to position themselves on top of enemies to get a perfect tag.

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Personally I would like to have more time in the end of battle screen.  I use the time to make some entries in the ship's log.  But I understand that some players use the battle screen to hide in when they are in enemy infested waters.  I'm imagining that the may be using the system as a competitive advantage.  In real life they would be in a foreign location surrounded by hostile ships but in game they can hide in the Ethernet. 

It would be great if we could exit out of the Battle Instance into the corresponding location in OW.  That way if a hunter can chase his prey and when it exits the instance they will be in OW at about the spot they left the instance.  If  a hunter is bored with the chase he can exit sooner.  The prey then has a choice to continue running and change direction to elude the hunter and create confusion as to where he will reappear in OW.  It gives more substance and depth to the chase and pursuit while allowing players to leave the instance when they choose.

The alternative is to exit the game when you are able to escape the instance.  This would help players who don't want to get sucked into an endless chase and escape loop, but would rather return to real life without sacrificing their ship.

Teleportation seems gamey.  It just doesn't seem to support Open World with long distance sailing and chases that are a part of the action.  If someone has a fast ship  and sails her well their should be an opportunity to avoid destruction or capture.  I'm hoping that Open World will be about long journeys and the age of sail experience and encourage chasing and running.  Teleportation seems to defeat Open World. 

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Here's how I see things, people say teleporting isn't realistic. Well yeah that is true, but think of this. How is having a battle instance and a open world instance realistic? Well it's not. The fact that you have a enemy revenge fleet right on top of your battle location but you can't see them is also not realistic. You can make an argument for teleporting not being realistic, well either is the 2 battle instances.

I would like to think the teleports were a much better choice than having revenge gank fleets that couldn't of possibly happened anyway. Right now this game FORCES players to log off and stop playing because of the 2 unrealistic battle instances. I would say not forcing players to stop playing the game by giving us teleports after battle would make a hell of a lot more sense.

Basically what I see, teleporting isn't realistic and either is the 2 battle instances but somehow it's ok to force people off a game because the enemy revenge fleet is somehow is in the same place where you are currently battling but you have absolutely no idea they are there. Make sense? Hell no..

That is plain stupid, who is going to keep playing with mechanics like this? If I want to save my ship I have to log off because enemy is magically at my battle location and I can't see them. What kind of a flawed mechanics is this?

Think about that first, either option is realistic. Also yes I know that this game cannot change and there will always be 2 instances, but when a game forces players to log off, that is poor design.

 

Edited by Neptune
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i actually like the idea  of leaving battle in corrosponding location from battle to ow .. you want to avoid the revenge fleet you have to spend a little more time sailing in the battle instance

Teleportation seems gamey

to be fair it is a game ....if you want long sea journeys and a age of sail experience ..maybe you should buy a boat

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5 minutes ago, Neptune said:

Here's how I see things, people say teleporting isn't realistic. Well yeah that is true, but think of this. How is having a battle instance and a open world instance realistic? Well it's not. The fact that you have a enemy revenge fleet right on top of your battle location but you can't see them is also not realistic. You can make an argument for teleporting not being realistic, well either is the 2 battle instances.

I would like to think the teleports were a much better choice than having revenge gank fleets that couldn't of possibly happened anyway. Right now this game FORCES players to log off and stop playing because of the 2 unrealistic battle instances. I would say not forcing players to stop playing the game by giving us teleports after battle would make a hell of a lot more sense.

Basically what I see, teleporting isn't realistic and either is the 2 battle instances but somehow it's ok to force people off a game because the enemy revenge fleet is somehow is in the same place where you are currently battling but you have absolutely no idea they are there. Make sense? Hell no..

I agree ... theres no realism in teleportation ...but no realism in leaving a battle in your suprise and finding yourself sat in the middle of 20 enemy third rates either .. realistcally soon as you saw that fleet on the horizon you would have disengaged and run for it

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First, thanks to @Liquicity for collecting ideas regarding this topic and thanks to everybody taking part in the discussion, both threads have proven very productive thus far.

 

I've thougt about this topic for a few days now and think, as others mentioned already (including Sir admin), the actual problem is the difference between in-battle time and OW time and throwing captains out of the battle at the same coordinates they initially started the fight/chase. My proposal is choosing his spawn position in the OW at a distance from the initial attack which is based of the time that passed in the instance. See picture below (i have drawing skills too Liqui!):

 

 

5907b7224681a_AfterBattleTP.thumb.jpg.1c9a11bc4d11e8538d23e6f02a5fab77.jpg

 

Battle starts at the crossed swords. For every 5 minutes that pass in the instance (as long as its not 'Battle Over'), the spawn circle increases. When you leave the battle, you can spawn at a position ON the circle that is not blocked by land or shallows (=green). To be clear: After 30 mins, spawn somewhere on the green line at 30', but not everywhere inside the circle. To give the defender a chance to escape, the attacker will always spawn on a 1 minute "smaller" circle.

 

Close to Capitals ganking will still be very risky, 1v5 fights are over early and give the possibility for a revenge gank. From my experience, fights need longer the more balanced they are. And you can still predict pretty well which spawn point your enemy will choose on exit. With this mechanic, gankers get punished in enemy waters while fair fighters are given a good chance.

 

Additional thougts:
- maybe the circle should not start growing until 15 mins in to take into account the sailing time needed to exit port and sailing to the battle in OW.
- this would solve the PB problem, after 105 minutes you will not have a problem spawning far away from the contested port
- solves infinite PB fleet tagging: If you defeat the screening fleet, you can advance to the port (or a good chunk of the distance)
- problem with screening: Attack an ALT and leave the battle in the right moment to spawn close to the port, but at the same time...
- ... opens up interesting tactics for screening: Hold the PB fleet in battle to let the circle "overshoot" the port

 

T H O U G T S ?

Edited by Havelock
spoiler tags are broken like dem hello kitties
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7 minutes ago, Grundgemunkey said:

I agree ... theres no realism in teleportation ...but no realism in leaving a battle in your suprise and finding yourself sat in the middle of 20 enemy third rates either .. realistcally soon as you saw that fleet on the horizon you would have disengaged and run for it

Absolutely. The fact the some people aren't looking at the facts right now is really annoying. So people are saying teleporting isn't realistic well true. But how is it nobody is looking at how a enemy revenge fleet can approach you and sit at your exact battle location with out you seeing them. That's some kind of magic too isn't it? 

Flawed mechanics when people are forced to log off because of a magical revenge fleet. Good way to keep players right? :D

Just makes me laugh how people think keeping magical revenge fleets is a good idea. Magical invisible revenge fleets definitely happened in the age of sail am I right? 

Edited by Neptune
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3 minutes ago, Neptune said:

 ... nobody is looking at how a enemy revenge fleet can approach you and sit at your exact battle location with out you seeing them. That's some kind of magic too isn't it? 

Good point.  That sounds magical alright. 

 

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How about if you had a teleport to nearest friendly port only if you were within a certain distance (i.e. close to) a friendly port. That would stop the people that jump someone deep in their own waters then avoid the revenge by teleporting.

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12 minutes ago, Mr. Doran said:

None of you are seeing the big picture here. Just cut out the middle man and have the instances open all the time in order to punish gankers with maximum efficiency; no need to wait this way.  

Yeah we all know how that worked. Nation with the most online will always have the advantage, if you can't match their numbers then what's the point of the battle being open the whole time? It didn't work when we had long timers before, it often turned a 10v3 into a 15v3. It never worked, unless it remains open only for the side with lower BR.

But that STILL doesn't fix the magical invisible revenge fleets at your exact battle location.

Edited by Neptune
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1 hour ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

A bigger question is, how do you make devs to understand that this development direction was not a good one.

First you need to understand why invis was removed: because of the problems it caused.

Then you need to recall and understand those problems.

Then you need to come up with a different solution that does not have those problems, but still has the desired effect.

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Here's an idea.

At the end of the battle, give us two ways to leave the battle:

1) Normal method, we spawn where the original tag happened.

2) Lets us spawn in a random location that has a maximum and minimum distance from the original battle location (visual below). Obviously we wouldn't be able to exit into the land, but if the location is random (inside the red shaded space) it would make it very hard to predict, and would give the person inside a fighting chance. Obviously the exact distance is up for debate, but i think it should be out of view of the original battle location.

Image explained:

Yellow - Original Battle location

Red shaded space - would spawn somewhere in there, randomly. 

 

This could be done directly from the battle instance. Thoughts?

 

EDIT: I just realized this is similar to Havelock's suggestion above. I'm not trying to steal your idea @Havelock, I saw your post after :)

 

 

62d37c_origin.png

Edited by Guest
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3 hours ago, elite92 said:

the fact is that with 120 sec timer u can exit the battle and log out if u need to go somewhere else(dinner , night) but if u want to play again u have 2 min to reposition ur ship at your favor if in the last battle u were outnumbered (less BR).

more time is too much, less time and u cant log out safely. 120 seconds is the spot (or considering the 15 seconds tagging at least 105 s but 2 min for the sake of safety and lag issue solving).

u should give the inv bonus at the end of the battle checking the BR at the end, not at the start obviusly, no matter who attacks.

forget teleports guys, devs are clear on this point. Naval Action will be hardcore no more magic TPs

I like this one. Its somewhat simple. Its still going to get exploited but its better than the teleports.

Example: Me and my Pirate buddies get outside of KPR just beyond view.  We tag and NPC and demast it. Now we have a 1.5 hour ambush instance with 120sec invis when we spring the inviso trap on the Brits.  After taking a few rich prizes the Brits come out with a revenge fleet that we fully deserve.  Seeing the revenge fleet we used the 120sec invisibility that was actually meant to protect lil ol helpless us from just such revenge fleets camping us and we escape. AND we just turned your well meaning defensive magic mechanic into an offensive gank tool. 

I'm sorry guys but this is going to happen with every single magic method you keep coming up with. AND its always going to favor the ambush hunters because in the game they always choose the time and the place. So they get to be the ones to abuse the mechanics. The reacting defenders are at the mercy of how the mechanic happens to be used.

Just let people log off in the instance so they can quit playing for real life concerns.  If players choose to camp a battle spot for a half hour or more because the only defensive tactic they can think of is a full frontal mass of ships then more power to them.  If hunters get themselves close enough to a capital port and repeatedly attack in the same spot till the defenders get enough time to teleport to capital, grab a ship and swarm that spot those hunters deserve the camping.  Either come out of the battle guns blazing and take your punishment for getting caught like that or log off and take the penalty of not playing for awhile.  There is no need to make the game easier on solo hunters. All that is needed is a log off to cover real life issues.

 

Edited by Bach
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1 hour ago, EliteDelta said:

Here's an idea.

At the end of the battle, give us two ways to leave the battle:

1) Normal method, we spawn where the original tag happened.

2) Lets us spawn in a random location that has a maximum and minimum distance from the original battle location (visual below). Obviously we wouldn't be able to exit into the land, but if the location is random (inside the red shaded space) it would make it very hard to predict, and would give the person inside a fighting chance. Obviously the exact distance is up for debate, but i think it should be out of view of the original battle location.

Image explained:

Yellow - Original Battle location

Red shaded space - would spawn somewhere in there, randomly. 

 

This could be done directly from the battle instance. Thoughts?

 

 

62d37c_origin.png

Aside from the programming that would have to account for changing terrain, edges of map and water depth its still getting exploited.

So me and my Pirate buddies decide to spread some love in Swedish home waters.  We would normally have to set up in the travel route between hat island and Gustavia to avoid Swedish revenge fleets.  But we got this nifty new teleport to safety mechanic. So we just sail a speed rigged gank fleet straight into Swedish waters just outside the green ring. We take prizes all we want till the Swedes finally get organized with a <gulp> dreaded revenge fleet.  Normally this would restrict our operation location and save some merchants that get to close to home. But not today. We just go about our ganking willy nilly without such cares. When we see the revenge fleet coming we just grab any bountiful home water NPC. End that battle and we're all spirited away by the wings of angels. We regroup at the predermine X,Y coordinates and rinse and repeat all we want. The Swedes will put up with this a few days or so and then decide any attempt to chase us is pointless and just let us have our way ganking in their waters.  Because 9 out of 10 times any response force we attaking hunters don't want to fight we will never have to fight. In fact we could just make it standard procedure to teleport random after every fight and not even bother looking for revenge fleets. Completely one sided mechanic favoring the prepared hunters.

Edited by Bach
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31 minutes ago, Bach said:

Aside from the programming that would have to account for changing terrain, edges of map and water depth its still getting exploited.

So me and my Pirate buddies decide to spread some love in Swedish home waters.  We would normally have to set up in the travel route between hat island and Gustavia to avoid Swedish revenge fleets.  But we got this nifty new teleport to safety mechanic. So we just sail a speed rigged gank fleet straight into Swedish waters just outside the green ring. We take prizes all we want till the Swedes finally get organized with a <gulp> dreaded revenge fleet.  Normally this would restrict our operation location and save some merchants that get to close to home. But not today. We just go about our ganking willy nilly without such cares. When we see the revenge fleet coming we just grab any bountiful home water NPC. End that battle and we're all spirited away by the wings of angels. We regroup at the predermine X,Y coordinates and rinse and repeat all we want. The Swedes will put up with this a few days or so and then decide any attempt to chase us is pointless and just let us have our way ganking in their waters.  Because 9 out of 10 times any response force we attaking hunters don't want to fight we will never have to fight. In fact we could just make it standard procedure to teleport random after every fight and not even bother looking for revenge fleets. Completely one sided mechanic favoring the prepared hunters.

This idea could easily be tuned. If hunting groups are finding themselves immune, then the distance can be reduced, making it possible to spawn in sight of the enemy (just not on top of them).

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2 hours ago, EliteDelta said:

Image explained:

Yellow - Original Battle location

Red shaded space - would spawn somewhere in there, randomly. 

This could be done directly from the battle instance. Thoughts

62d37c_origin.png

This is actually a really good idea, one of the only good ones I've seen. If devs can implement something similar to this it would help a lot with the magical invisible revenge fleets. :)

Also credits to Havelock, I missed your post. Similar Ideas.

Edited by Neptune
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51 minutes ago, Neptune said:

This is actually a really good idea, one of the only good ones I've seen. If devs can implement something similar to this it would help a lot with the magical invisible revenge fleets. :)

Also credits to Havelock, I missed your post. Somewhat the same Ideas.

I'm not opposed to tweaking or such but we have to be careful with this issue. In some ways it can be a backdoor into putting safe solo hunting of an enemy capital back into the game again.

A few things need to be maintained

A nations home waters are meant to be dangerous.

If  20 players drop everything to teleport to one spot and become a "revenge fleet" in response to enemy players, that have already had fun sinking their team mates, there should be some reward to that effort.  They are doing the RvR we want them too. To have a get out of jail free card to the small attacking group promotes futility in team play. So all you good intentions can become the opposite of what we want as a small group has some fun and a larger group feels the game is pointless. The small group has to get caught sometimes and punished for their crimes. The closer they are to a capital the more the situational odds should shift to favor the defenders.

A 20 ship fleet sitting somewhere on the ocean anywhere in the game is supposed to control that sea area against small squadrons or solo ships. 20 players know this in their minds. If its too easy for the solo player to escape or if those twenty feel they are fighting the computer more than the other player they wont play that game.  Again this is a game for the twenty players more than the one. Cruel as that sounds we saw this last year. To much protection just ends up with a small  population game of soloists. Teamwork is supposed to pay off.

Now that said

Nobody likes to get zerged. In the event a nation grows dominant on shear population it is reasonable to put in some balancing mechanics to give the smaller groups a chance. But never should it be a guarantee. 

If there is a port battle to be had by 25 players and a nation fields it 25 and 40+ screeners in the ocean in front of the PB then there isn't going to be any fun PBs. Just zerg dominance. If in this instance a smaller group going to the PB manages to escape the huge screen then it is reasonable that it escaped into the PB and some method that gets them into the PB would be more fun for more players.  

Players shouldn't have to be harassed with sequential battles non stop. Be it by a revenge fleet or just a time wasting repeat griefer.  There is nothing wrong with have to fight two battles. It gives each side a second chance at times.  But more than that could just be harassment. Players should be able to expect some relief from this.

In NA a battle can last 1.5 hour real time. Two battles 3hours. Players can not be expected to be forced to play this long without break or automatic significant loss.  The new system makes ships relatively cheap. Yes, I know the horror stories but I'm heavily on the testbed. Even at one dura only ships larger than a Tricomelee are actually expensive. Being a pirate this past year I can tell you the standard OW ships were the Reno and Surprise.  In the new system these are not "permit ships" and wont actually constitute a significant loss. But its still a loss and players need to feel they lost it fairly. 

 

Edited by Bach
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7 hours ago, Neptune said:

All the revenge fleet needs to do is surround your location and get upwind of you. 90 Second invulnerability will do nothing, it didn't work before. And 90 Seconds isn't enough time to log off, so it solves nothing considering lag, give it 2 minutes. 

Try to sail away from anyone in your nation for 90 seconds. Grab a mate, stopwatch on,sail away.

You will see, in 90 seconds,you are almost "invisible" again, becuase you disappear on horizon.

 

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7 hours ago, Slamz said:

First you need to understand why invis was removed: because of the problems it caused.

Then you need to recall and understand those problems.

Then you need to come up with a different solution that does not have those problems, but still has the desired effect.

I understood devs said they will remove all this stuff, nothing to do with me and what I understand. Right? So just hoping that they understand to implement something for this, as anything is better than implementing nothing at all.

 

And hey, who says I do not understand why invisibility was removed?  A very short invisibility should be still ok.  2-3s from which I have been talking is a bit different scenario.  I am not asking like 90s or 2 minutes, I believe those do not work.

So if there were 2-3s invisibility, captain has time to raise his sails and look around.  It is tiny bit better than nothing.

...

Another option could be, that you pop out from the same location as you are in battle.  So if you have 30 minutes left, you can sail a bit more off from battle start location.  This is a bit heavy and a time sink, but hey, it is Naval Action.

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I think the problem is clear. The system now proposed on the testbed will REDUCE PVP activity significantly by anyone who has a RL to catch in the next hours. If there is no way to escape revenge fleets, every cruise to foreign waters is (1) a garantueed loss of you ship (2) a unforeseeable time sink.

Easiest way to fix: 2 min + x invisibilty after battle combined with the option to teleport to the nearest friendly town (or free town).

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