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The Spanish Armada: A Debate


_Alucard_

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I didn't really know much about it till the posts here a couple of days ago, but I've now (briefly) read a couple of accounts and listened to the BBC's In Our Time podcast, what I cannot help thinking is what a bloody daft plan it was in first place. Fancy trying to co-oridinate a navy in the confines of the English Channel with a separate army who had no means of direct communication till the navy happened to show up, while facing naval opposition from both sides. I've sailed in the English Channel myself and know from experience the lack of safe anchorages between the Isle of Wight and the Downs and exactly how confined the Straits of Dover are. Reading accounts of the Spanish fleet getting continually harassed by the British as it sailed up and tried to anchor in the Channel I begin to see why so many would-be invaders of England chose to land somewhere in the West. After letting the English fleet get to the west of them on the very first night in the Channel, the Armada's fate looked - well, not quite sealed, but rather precarious.

Yet Spain could have won. It looks like it was only naval opposition that stopped them camping in the Channel and had they concluded that their first objective should be to disable the English navy, they could have done so by sailing into Plymouth and engaging in their favourite tactic of boarding at close quarters.

Oh, it's easy now over 400 years after the event to say what so-and-so should have done, or if only such-and-such hadn't happened then, so it's almost impossible at this distance to apportion blame, but I would say the biggest mistake was in the planning stage in not recognising that the entire invasion rested on there not being an opposing English fleet to frustrate the Armada being able to communicate with the Duke of Parma's army. Wikipedia (so not entirely reliable) makes the truly remarkable assertion that, when offered the opportunity of capturing the English fleet at anchor in Plymouth, 'Medina Sidonia declined to act because this had been explicitly forbidden by Philip'. If Philip really did order that then quite frankly he deserved to lose. Perhaps Medina Sidonia was being overly cautious - which doesn't really seem to be his character from what little I've read. He appears to me to have been aware of his own inexperience in command of such a venture, so perhaps this really was the King's order and Medina Sidonia was simply too deferential.

Blame on the Spanish side, but credit to the English. Howard and Drake seized advantage of the situation, correctly realising their precarious position in Plymouth so sailing out sooner than they probably would have liked with the Spanish fleet still to the west, but knowing where they needed to be and getting past the Armada overnight (does anyone know a good account of this? It seems quite a difficult fleet maneouvre for the time). Thereafter, with the notable exception of Drake the Pirate chasing after Rosario and San Salvador, the English seemed focused on their task of preventing the invasion by Parma's army, in which they were entirely successful.

Several posts in the Galleons thread described the Armada as if it were a Napoleonic wars naval battle, fought between ships for the control of the sea where the primary objective is to sink or capture enemy ships. The way I read it the Spanish Armada was more an auxiliary part of a land invasion, and what happened to the ships themselves was pretty immaterial.

Edited by Remus
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On 4/6/2017 at 10:54 AM, maturin said:

Sounds like you're splitting hairs between defeat and failure.

If you don't even come close to achieving your aim, lose seven ships without inflicting damage on the enemy, and then get driven out of your anchorage, abandoning the invasion force, is that not defeat? Or would you rather say that the Spanish just failed on their own, to avoid giving credit to the English? The weather wage just the coup de grace to a botched campaign.

I'll be listening to the podcast, though.

Something to ponder: The Mongols declared to invade Japan, but Japan did not know they were about to be invaded and therefore did not know they were at war. Storms wrecked the landing fleet of the Mongols and only about 100 of the landing party reached land, only to be crushed. Can Japan call it a victory against the Mongols? Or do they also have to consider it a failure of the Mongols?

I personally do not consider it "splitting hairs". Both are correct and both are indeed different, IMHO.

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1 hour ago, van der Decken said:

Something to ponder: The Mongols declared to invade Japan, but Japan did not know they were about to be invaded and therefore did not know they were at war. Storms wrecked the landing fleet of the Mongols and only about 100 of the landing party reached land, only to be crushed. Can Japan call it a victory against the Mongols? Or do they also have to consider it a failure of the Mongols?

I personally do not consider it "splitting hairs". Both are correct and both are indeed different, IMHO.

  1. The British knew they were being invaded and mobilized accordingly
  2. The British won tactical victories against the Spanish before they were able to rendezvous with the invasion army, and inflicted casualties
  3. The British drove the Spanish out of their anchorage with fireships, preventing rendezvous
  4. The Spanish ended up in a precarious tactical position whereby the English and Dutch were poised to interfere with the landings
  5. The Spanish suffered a defeat in a major battle at Gravelines, losing more ships to foundering and shipwreck than most battles of the 18th Century, with its superior gunnery and firepower
  6. The Spanish abandoned the area of the invasion rendezvous due to weather after their anchorage became untenable
  7. The Spanish fleet was in poor shape already, with ships needing to be girdled, and a shortage of ground tackle (essential for supporting operations on any coast)

Only THEN, did they get Kamikaze'd

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On 4/7/2017 at 8:26 PM, ElricTheTwo said:

I remember the very nationalistic history lessons back in school (a long time ago) in England...

I just finished reading this:

http://www.britishbattles.com/the-spanish-war/the-spanish-armada/

Not a bad read.

 

It's pretty clear reading that, that the English tactic of shoot and scoot won the day and the weather was just icing on the cake.

 

 

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