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Destraex

Is it worth levelling up as it will be reset right?

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Not if they don't even try to learn in the first instance. Which, for me, is the whole problem at hand. They're not interested in learning, they're interested in the ships. For what, I don't know as sailing big ships without a proper understanding of the sailing mechanics will lead to frustrating defeat after frustrating defeat, but is the case in many, many instances.

Noone is asking anyone to be the terror of the seven seas, Blackbeard reincarnated or a Lord Nelson of tactics. But at least you'd expect people in ships bigger than a surprise to know how to handle upwind situations and how to tack properly without getting stuck on irons constantly. And a very basic understanding of stationkeeping aswell. With that any player is set to be an asset to his team, he doesn't need to do massive damages or do spectacular maneouvers or tactical exploits.

 

But what can't be is that you get three games in a row ruined because someone insists in bringing a big ship he has no clue on how to use, to battle, dooming his own team to failure in the process time after time and again. And behold and beware if you even DARE to suggest he might want to practice a bit in smaller ships before bringing his big SOL into PVP. Because then hell breaks loose.

 

That kind of thing has to stop. It's not fun to have 5-6 people locked into a 30-40 minute game they simply can't win because their big ship is totally clueless just because the dude doesn't have the slightest degree of common sense (and emphaty towards other players) required to understand that a Victory won't achieve anything in a battle if they don't even know how to turn their yards...

 

That because of growing player base, more people = more Idiots.

And what goes for me i can say i have still a lot to learn (Atm at the Trico) the Controll works fine, just some Tactic stuff ive got to improve.

But i would never rant about somebody whos giving advice to me, its very appreciated.

 

And to Topic: its worth it, just to test the Ships, for urself and for developers

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Seeing that most power levelers have lost interest (what a surprise considering the demographic most come from) we don't see many of them anymore anyway. In my experience, the games have again improved in quality from having hit rock bottom just over a week ago - well, it would have been hard to go any worse. The only way for things to go was up.

 

Overall a reset could be worth it, but I think it should coincided with a lock on PvE damage progression. As well as that, I was thinking that maybe it would be best having the wipe just before, or during the Damage Model Update. This way, the developers are fed the information slowly, at a more manageable speed and any profound bugs in the bigger ships are only effecting a few players. Then again,  it would increase the testing time.

 

[...]

They're not interested in learning, they're interested in the ships.

[...]

 

Sorry, Ram but you are wrong. Yes, they are not interested in learning, but they are also not interested in ships. If they were, they'd learn. What they are interested in is having the biggest club in town without having gone through the effort of hitting the gym in order to be able to even lift it up.

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I don't think that even forcing pvp to progress will heal them, it will just delay them reaching the top and continue the derp. Right now it's just data gathering and finetuning anyway so there's almost no reason for them to even learn anything because they don't risk their ship or money that forces them to use their brain for once in a while.
TL;DR randoms will random no matter what, just wait for a patch that allows you to choose who you sail with.

Better question for the topic would be: Is it worth going beyond brig/snow before you have learned the basics?

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Better question for the topic would be: Is it worth going beyond brig/snow before you have learned the basics?

 

 

Yes, for the understanding that u have to learn the basics in smaller ships.

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I don't think that even forcing pvp to progress will heal them, it will just delay them reaching the top and continue the derp. Right now it's just data gathering and finetuning anyway so there's almost no reason for them to even learn anything because they don't risk their ship or money that forces them to use their brain for once in a while.

TL;DR randoms will random no matter what, just wait for a patch that allows you to choose who you sail with.

Better question for the topic would be: Is it worth going beyond brig/snow before you have learned the basics?

 

 

Right now is the time to learn though.  There are no set backs, no penalties or consequences for defeat.  Now is the time to experiment with different maneuvers in manual sailing.  When the next damage model comes out, it will definitely be the time to get down how to fight, but the foundation for that is already in place now and should be formed in each player while we have a loss free environment.

 

 

 

Better question for the topic would be: Is it worth going beyond brig/snow before you have learned the basics?

 

 

I didn't learn how to manual sail until I was in the Trinc or Constitution.  That was just prior to the switch from victories to damage for progression.  Although I knew how to tack once I got to Brig but that's all I did.  Back before the cutter was redone, the only way you could tack was with bringing the boom in and dropping your square sail so I knew I would have to learn with the brig as well since it has even more square sails.

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Yes, for the understanding that u have to learn the basics in smaller ships.

If these people would actually understand that then we wouldn't be having this discussion here. The essence of this problem is that they fail to realize or acknowledge the fact that they are doing something wrong or they just don't give a **** because no penalty for losing/mistakes so why bother to improve? They are unaware to the fact that they are using only 50% of the potential of their ships and therefore not only cripple themselves but also their team aswell.

Also the Dunning-Kruger effect intensifies on them once they get their hands on SOL's.

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If these people would actually understand that then we wouldn't be having this discussion here. The essence of this problem is that they fail to realize or acknowledge the fact that they are doing something wrong or they just don't give a **** because no penalty for losing/mistakes so why bother to improve? They are unaware to the fact that they are using only 50% of the potential of their ships and therefore not only cripple themselves but also their team aswell.

Also the Dunning-Kruger effect intensifies on them once they get their hands on SOL's.

 

But allways losing isnt fun, its more fun to win.

So that should be enough inducement to learn the stuff u need.

But since this is a game everything/everyone to blame except themself. Like the typical WOT top tier heavy who rushes ahead dies and cries about the shit team hes in..

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Perhaps the answer is to have all ships available to all players in PVE. Then PVP could be a very strict progression based on success with the previous ship.

 

The people who just want to crash a Santissima into a Surprise to see what happens can (in PVE) and the people who would rather be able to trust their teammate to sink the Surprise can (in PVP).

 

There all fixed! :)

 

Oh, wait it won't be fixed until we choose our own teams - dang.

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But allways losing isnt fun

 

 

 

That seems like common sense, yet the, literally, legions of WoT players with 20k battles and 35% win/loss ratio disagree with this and prove it wrong ;)

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Multi-player PVE isn't the worst place to learn the mechanics of handling a ship, working with other players as a team to defeat the AI's, with less of a burden on the team win.  Maybe should be a little more encouragement to play in that environment before tackling the PVP environments.

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I think that bots are so predictable and stupid that you can't learn anything from fighting them after a couple of battles with small ships.

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Look at EVE online! Most players learn how to play by missions first, so they learn basic functions and how to listen to commands before moving on to pvp for the most part. Also when the game comes out... In game money will be necessary rather than damage.

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The trick in any Alpha / Beta is to not grind. Do not spend 15 hours a day trying to get to shiny level 99 platinum diamond omega....coz in an alpha/beta you will (and should) on occasion, often planned, sometimes not...get wiped. Thus you will feel cheated out of your 'grind work'. Instead just play and you will accidentally 'level up'. This just opens up a new ship to play with in and learn.

 

When you hit a ship that takes a bit of work to get to (say Suprise+) then focus on 'getting good' while you play, learn to better estimate ranges, use the wind, manual sail etc etc etc.

 

Key to enjoying a 'true' pre-release is NOT TO GRIND.

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But allways losing isnt fun, its more fun to win.

So that should be enough inducement to learn the stuff u need.

But since this is a game everything/everyone to blame except themself. Like the typical WOT top tier heavy who rushes ahead dies and cries about the shit team hes in..

This is normal in WOT. WOT is entirely different animal and this will be offtopic but that game is designed around the lowest common denominator (which I cannot blame them for since mass appeal = more profit for company) aka the average dronedaddy who comes home after work and wants to have some easy fun and relax for few battles without turning his brain on. He don't have time or need, even after thousands of battles, to learn about such nuisances as angling armor, positioning or using his pixeltank for full potential to stay competitive since majority of playerbase is just like him, clueless. This is a portrait of their average player who carries their game financially.

This is just from their recent dev q&a (20.1.2015) where they confirm their stance:

- ''Storm (PR person of devs) states that server for 50+ winrate players would not be successful, as players would leave it quickly “due to the increased difficulty of battles”

I sincerely hope this will not become normal in here and that the game will not get ''wotified''...

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Not if they don't even try to learn in the first instance. Which, for me, is the whole problem at hand. They're not interested in learning, they're interested in the ships. For what, I don't know as sailing big ships without a proper understanding of the sailing mechanics will lead to frustrating defeat after frustrating defeat, but is the case in many, many instances.

Noone is asking anyone to be the terror of the seven seas, Blackbeard reincarnated or a Lord Nelson of tactics. But at least you'd expect people in ships bigger than a surprise to know how to handle upwind situations and how to tack properly without getting stuck on irons constantly. And a very basic understanding of stationkeeping aswell. With that any player is set to be an asset to his team, he doesn't need to do massive damages or do spectacular maneouvers or tactical exploits.

But what can't be is that you get three games in a row ruined because someone insists in bringing a big ship he has no clue on how to use, to battle, dooming his own team to failure in the process time after time and again. And behold and beware if you even DARE to suggest he might want to practice a bit in smaller ships before bringing his big SOL into PVP. Because then hell breaks loose.

That kind of thing has to stop. It's not fun to have 5-6 people locked into a 30-40 minute game they simply can't win because their big ship is totally clueless just because the dude doesn't have the slightest degree of common sense (and emphaty towards other players) required to understand that a Victory won't achieve anything in a battle if they don't even know how to turn their yards...

And so much for being in this alpha for testing purposes mate. Just in case you are not aware then the whole point of the alpha is to test,test test

You of all people should understand this. You need lighten up a bit. I don't care about the winning as long as I have a fun battle myself. I have had numerous battles in Wot where we got snotted big time but they have been enjoyable games anyway

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Ramjb i don't even expect that people on my own team will not run into me. This kind of comment is why sports are separated into competitive and non competitive even if they are team sports. There is bbq rugby with some mates thhe wife n kids and club rugby at the top level. People don't always sail sober, wide awake or may not have a lot of brain capacity at the minute. Everybody is different at different times and even different ages. It's why a lot of people want to play solo. So they don't get accused of anything by the elitist crowd. I know it's not elite to expect a little skill with the bigger ships. But think of real life.... it's kinda the same. Sometimes you get given command not because of skill but because of connections.... royalty and the like. So you can expect this kind of thing even in real life at least back then. Go watch hornblower and the episode called mutiny, the captain of that ship was a good captain in his day but had been allowed to stay out of respect as he went senile and became sick. Just pretend some of these other ship captains are thus.

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I think that bots are so predictable and stupid that you can't learn anything from fighting them after a couple of battles with small ships.

could say the same thing about some Captains in Brigs and Snows and sometimes up to trinco

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If people would work together most of the issues Ram and others bring up would be ok.  People don't have to be good or decent.  They can be terrible.  If they work together that is ok.  But if they refuse to work together they have no chance and screw everyone else.

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Ramjb i don't even expect that people on my own team will not run into me. This kind of comment is why sports are separated into competitive and non competitive even if they are team sports. There is bbq rugby with some mates thhe wife n kids and club rugby at the top level. People don't always sail sober, wide awake or may not have a lot of brain capacity at the minute. Everybody is different at different times and even different ages. It's why a lot of people want to play solo. So they don't get accused of anything by the elitist crowd. I know it's not elite to expect a little skill with the bigger ships. But think of real life.... it's kinda the same. Sometimes you get given command not because of skill but because of connections.... royalty and the like. So you can expect this kind of thing even in real life at least back then. Go watch hornblower and the episode called mutiny, the captain of that ship was a good captain in his day but had been allowed to stay out of respect as he went senile and became sick. Just pretend some of these other ship captains are thus.

 

I drink beer, answer the phone (if it rings) and sometimes just in general get destracted while playing - and that's not even to mention the disconnects and video card resets from time to time.

 

While it sort of sucks to have your team get wiped out because the matchmaker put the Santi on the other team - or your Santi AFK'd at the start - or your Santi is being driven by a first timer or even a derp - that's life: think how good you can get at beating long odds with enough of that.

 

I really hope we don't develop a large "elitist" crowd - since any of us can be sunk - even if only by a packet drop out.

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Yes I have to agree to all of that except the beer part since I don't drink and sail ;)

Beginning to think others forget this is just a test phase and not a win at all costs and you better be proficient in the ship you enter a pvp in or get lost thing.

Had lots of new guys run into my Vic or Santi is not a big deal they will learn and I just say hope it didn't hurt you too much cause after all they are suppose to be your teammates right.

Think people that are the most learned here forget not all of us are at the same level as them but we try. This is not a life event for us just a game and some of us see it that way a game to enjoy, try to get better at and one to get a laugh at when we make stupid mistakes along our learning curve.

 

Not everyone take this as a win at all costs and mistakes are not tolerated. One of the reasons I haven't joined a Clan is I have no desire to be part of a no mistakes do as your told to win at all costs society.

 

Only been here since end of December no way I can be as good as the top leaderboard people so why would anyone expect me to be or hold me to their experience level ?

 

You see me playing and you are having trouble or accidently make a mistake and ram me ,  relax it's ok I remember the feeling of too many things to do at the same time and lost focus when the phone rang or the wife asked me a question when I was trying to out turn an expert player it's all good and we will all learn together don't worry about it have fun.

 

Some ppl have just forgotten the main idea of all this is for everyone to have fun not just the chosen few.

:) 

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Not if they don't even try to learn in the first instance. Which, for me, is the whole problem at hand. They're not interested in learning, they're interested in the ships. For what, I don't know as sailing big ships without a proper understanding of the sailing mechanics will lead to frustrating defeat after frustrating defeat, but is the case in many, many instances.

Noone is asking anyone to be the terror of the seven seas, Blackbeard reincarnated or a Lord Nelson of tactics. But at least you'd expect people in ships bigger than a surprise to know how to handle upwind situations and how to tack properly without getting stuck on irons constantly. And a very basic understanding of stationkeeping aswell. With that any player is set to be an asset to his team, he doesn't need to do massive damages or do spectacular maneouvers or tactical exploits.

 

But what can't be is that you get three games in a row ruined because someone insists in bringing a big ship he has no clue on how to use, to battle, dooming his own team to failure in the process time after time and again. And behold and beware if you even DARE to suggest he might want to practice a bit in smaller ships before bringing his big SOL into PVP. Because then hell breaks loose.

 

That kind of thing has to stop. It's not fun to have 5-6 people locked into a 30-40 minute game they simply can't win because their big ship is totally clueless just because the dude doesn't have the slightest degree of common sense (and emphaty towards other players) required to understand that a Victory won't achieve anything in a battle if they don't even know how to turn their yards...

I know what you mean - too often on a team in a frigate and find that your 1st rate is totally ineffective. But I guess it works both ways.

What I think would be a good idea is to have a fleet training map with no AI bots so that people who want to learn can practice manoeuvring etc.

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We already have small groups of 'friends' that show up online together, jump into PVP together and then proceed to call other members of their team the usual names if they don't follow the lead of these self appointed 'Admirals'. These teams usually end up in a ball of death because the 'Admiral' couldn't get a Cutter through the eye if his life depended on it without having to back sails after getting caught in irons. Which they can't do anyway, having never bothered to learn manual sails. Just wait Admiral, the current will push you around eventually. :P

I've started calling this bunch 'The Groupies', and just tend to ignore them and their 12 yr. old attitudes, which often places my craft in the 'Independent Action and Team Support' category. On the other hand at certain times of the day I find PVE attractive just to avoid the Groupies. The AI Captains may not be much competition, but they also don't spend the entire game in chat spouting preadolescent whining and insults. A blessing in itself.

 

Rgds:  Jeff

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I don't know if I've seen someone call other people names, perhaps, perhaps not, but from the people who join the different groups I don't think I have.  Going "independent action" only hurts your team.  Teamwork is required of this game.  Why play if you aren't willing to work together with your team?  If you have better ideas, voice them.  Typically we are trying to recreate fleet/squadron battles.  If you go off on your own you are breaking that and your team is hurt by it.

 

Also, the people who tend to group together often have individually more experience in total matches and hours than all the "non groupies" in the match combined.  Add them together and you may have over a thousand hours of experience or more on a side.  Though that doesn't mean we should treat others poorly.

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