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Damage, Cannons, Repairs, Firing, Aiming - suggestions and feedback

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I think the big problem with "cone" dispersion is there is no room to simulate gunners zeroing in on a target.

 

Imagine this: you are in calm water with your sails down firing at a stationary target. You fire your first shot, many shots are too high, some fall short.

Second shot. No adjustment to the point of aim at all. Exact same result.

Third. Fourth. Fifth. No better. A well designed system could account for this scenario without raising questions about realism, as well as competently depicting battle on rough seas at high speeds.

 

In reality each gunner would see that his shot has fallen short and adjust aim accordingly. This is why "cone fire" isnt a solution.

 

I realise as much as any person that shooting from a moving ship isn't going to be accurate. But not for the same reasons as there are in-game. This is supposed to be a simulator and messy shortcuts like random dispersion don't cut it.

 

I propose: The crosshair is dispersed by default. Each shot you fire tightens the dispersion a little bit (after maybe 2 seconds so it's more obvious its supposed to be simulating gunners reacting to a result rather than robotically getting more accurate), but adjusting your aim pushes it back out again. You can make tiny fine tune adjustments without disrupting the dispersion too much. But firing should tighten it.

 

As has been said before, the amount of scatter in the azimuth axis should not be anywhere near as huge as it is atm. There should be more in the ranging, as ranging is all done by intuition on the sea.

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I disagree. Dispersion was an inherit limitation of the technology of the day. Individuals gunners had very little ability to make fine adjustments to aim, and it is questionable to what degree adjustments made by observation of fall of shot were conducted by individual gunners in battle. They would seldom even have been able to see the fall of shot because of smoke. The typical fight was aiming directly at the target at short range and at most attempting to get the right elevation by timing discharge with roll. Beyond the great likelihood of human error, the gun itself had inherit dispersion for a variety of reasons:

-shot was inconsistently sized and shaped (increases horizontal and vertical dispersion)
-shot did not fit tightly in the bore (increases horizontal and vertical dispersion)
-powder charge consistency was very poor (significantly increases vertical dispersion)

But in game we have a hybrid system that lets us eliminate a lot of the human error that would be introduced by individual gunners, leaving us with gun dispersion (which as noted is very lenient in the vertical plane). Basically, we have a central director that allows us to lay every cannon simultaneously on the same bearing and elevation, and make fine adjustment to aim right up until the moment we fire (the technology to coordinate bearing and elevation existed very late in the era, but would not have been as responsive as our own instantaneous mouse inputs). Not surprisingly, this makes long-range gunnery, even in rougher seas, many times easier than it would have been in reality. Remove inherit shot to shot dispersion and we would have a total fantasy system.

Increasing range (vertical) dispersion, on the other hand, would make very long-range shooting more uncertain even if you are a really good shot, while having little effect on short range engagements. This might help to encourage closer engagements. The minimal range dispersion means that once a player figures out shooting at long-range, they can reliably land almost as many shots at long-range as a short- to mid-range broadside, and thus feel less pressure to close for effective fire. This will lead to more "skating" type engagements, and boring exchanges of long-range fire. If your experience so far is mostly with the small ships, it might seem like this couldn't possibly be a problem, but once you get to much larger ships, it most certainly is.

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I once again looked after the cannon thread wich the devs released a long time ago.

This describes the mechanic behind shooting in Naval Action.

-> original Cannon-Thread here

 

The first post from devs is giving you all the nice information you need to understand how it works.

 

however.

I feel that the difference in range for the same elevation is very minor. Player friendly for sure.

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I once again looked after the cannon thread wich the devs released a long time ago.

This describes the mechanic behind shooting in Naval Action.

-> original Cannon-Thread here

 

The first post from devs is giving you all the nice information you need to understand how it works.

 

however.

I feel that the difference in range for the same elevation is very minor. Player friendly for sure.

 

Many thanks Bungee! Seems like the Devs have got this mechanic spot on as well, albeit the dispersion might need to be increased a tiny bit more :)

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Problem: This one is two-fold; 1. The AI should not be able to come out of a hard turn at speed and even before it has leveled, sling an entire simultaneous broadside 500m at a moving target and have every single ball hit. 

2. Now at the same time it should not ride along beside you and let you throw 3-4 broadsides into it and not reply, this bug certainly has saved me a few times and people who are aware of it do try to get close now knowing they might not shoot back as much. I've even seen it at 2-300m apart as well btw. (I've F11 on both of those)

 

Why: The perfect accuracy fired from long range on the move is a realism buzz-killer, really makes it feel like a game when otherwise you're totally immersed. So is the 'passive' stance, which can be and already is being exploited by those who have noticed it. Just the last couple of games I loading my ships with the heaviest cannons/carronades I can carry and going straight at them, which ala Nelson should be a viable tactic, but not because a lack of the enemy shooting back.

 

How to fix: If it's possible, have them do ranging shots? And maybe give their shots a little more spread as they all seem to hit. 

Part 2, fix the 'passive mode' they seem to go into during some toe to toe close duels. 
Basically the extreme accuracy on the one hand and then the lack of shooting on the other, evens up the overall result which feels hard, but fair. I'm proposing keeping the end result hard and fair, but tweaking how this is achieved, to be more realistic.

 

Since it's Thanksgiving here in the States, I want to say thanks to GL for making fans of the age of fighting sail very happy, we can't wait for the open world

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i am not 100% happy with the aiming. ok its more realistic to have no marker, but a basic marker with the distance is for me the better solution. Normaly the captain dont aim the guns, but the gunners. And you give give only the target. so a little bit more marker is perhaps ok.

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I wwas able to test yesterday the ai is ramming eachother more then often and it hits hard or misses totaly. Might want to improve that. The forts need some looking improvement. Can bring suggestion if needed. Cannonfire spreads when after you aimed and got it good one goes far left or right. But overall the gane playes good no major minus things needs some tweking.

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It's all about getting used to

at the beginning i used almost every time all 4 shots of the lynx to get on target, therefpre missing almost always

now after a few hours of gaming i am much better, hitting the targed mostly after 1-2 ranging shots

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I disagree. Dispersion was an inherit limitation of the technology of the day. Individuals gunners had very little ability to make fine adjustments to aim, and it is questionable to what degree adjustments made by observation of fall of shot were conducted by individual gunners in battle. They would seldom even have been able to see the fall of shot because of smoke. The typical fight was aiming directly at the target at short range and at most attempting to get the right elevation by timing discharge with roll. Beyond the great likelihood of human error, the gun itself had inherit dispersion for a variety of reasons:

-shot was inconsistently sized and shaped (increases horizontal and vertical dispersion)

-shot did not fit tightly in the bore (increases horizontal and vertical dispersion)

-powder charge consistency was very poor (significantly increases vertical dispersion)

 

 

I'm actually going to ask you to quote some sources on this one. I am well aware of the problems inherent in the manufacture of smooth bore cannon which lead to inconsistent accuracy. But i dont think it was on the scale it is in game.

 

I can agree with you to an extent if the "dispersion" is supposed to represent gunner's error, but not inherent inaccuracy in the guns. I put it to you that you have a charicatured view of how accurate smooth bore weapons were. They werent anything like what we have in modern times, but in 95% of cases, i would wager they were much more accurate than the men who shot them were, at least out to several hundred yards.

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In all of this discussion I have the feeling that we are being carried away to much by "realism" and "what it actually was like". Let's not forget this is a game - not a historical tall ship simulation created for experimental archeologists... So for me as player interested in the theme and setting the fun factor is much more important than "if the cannon was rifled or smooth bore" or "carronades actually had a pbr of 250 yards". As interesting as it may be from a historical pov this does not at all add to the fun or flow of the game. It is what the designer makes of this information that really matters - and how it translates into the game's system and balancing. The idea of simply dropping historically accurate figures into a game mechanical environment, somewhere along the way magically transmogrifying into realistic gameplay is nonsense. Any experienced game designer will tell you the same. 

 

A good example for this is range. If realistic ranges and dispersion are used but we find the fire becoming absurdly accurate, destroying the player's immersion, what is better:

 

a ) sanctifying the numbers because they are "historically correct" while we all know that a game cannot and possibly should not calculate all the factors of reality

b ) changing them so that the game becomes more fun, accepting that there always will be a grey area we cannot and will not fully be able to simulate

 

For my suspension of disbelief the answer is obviously clear - I have long ago decided not to become one of the dreaded "rivet counters".

It's up to us, the community, to influence the game's creators to make a game that appeals to many (not all) of the potential player base.

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for me it's not about dropping the numbers into the sim. It's about making the player feel the things a captain might have, and making them make the decisions a captain might have.

 

In this case it's a simple answer from me: in reality, firing at a target gives the gunner information about where the shot has landed and they can make adjustments to accord for it. In the game this is currently not represented, so the captain will never have a reason to make a decision between "should i risk taking a new target or should i fire at the thing i've got more information about"

 

That decision making process simply does not exist in the game and I believe it ought to. the more decisions the player is compelled to make that are like those a captain might have made, the better. How we simulate those decision making processes isnt so much of a bother to me.

 

of course, this is all assuming the dispersion currently ingame is meant to represent the gunners' error. Which surely it must. Even cannons this old wouldn't be that far off just inherently. And if they were, most of the problem would be with inconsistent powder loads and seals around the projectile = less consistency with the velocity of the shot and thus "vertical" displacement, NOT anywhere near as much horizontal as there is in the game atm. The current dispersion model gives the impression it's meant to be gunners error.

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Rudder damage, I have only had my rudder damaged once, I was in the constitution at roughly 100 yards from an enemy surprise, I was turning hard right, with my ship pointing at her, to bring my broadside along her and she shot a broadside at me, only 5-7 rounds hit me due to my thin silhouette but one took my rudder clean out, meaning that the round passed through the entire of my ship, and somehow hit my rudder, is this due to poor design on the constitutions behalf, or was it a bug as I am no expert on ship layouts or designs I cannot say that it is not possible, but would be one lucky shot.

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In response to that; pump damage; I've had the pumps on the Surprise damaged or destroyed twice in one game. I've seen the report that the damage tables for cannons aren't connected yet, but to have damage like that on 2 separate ocassions in a row seems a little odd. I will admit to understanding that if your hull armor is gone your ships inards are exposed and you're in trouble, but still....

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Pump damage:

at first the pump is displayed as red wich means she completely stopped workin. Once the crew fixed her she is shown yellow wich represents a semi-functional pump. She is working but not at 100% of a undamaged gun.

Pumps can be hit and repaired multiple times.

 

 

I've seen the report that the damage tables for cannons aren't connected yet,

I dont quite understand that sentence? Do you mean there are no visuals on broken cannons? Then yes your right.

Tell me when I understood you wrong.

 

@Harry:

I read it as you faced your foe with the bow and still got your rudder shot down?

If thats right you should report this as a bug.

 

 

btw:
is it by porpose that the gundecks are now displayed the opposite way like they were previously?
I see this when using the F keys to lock gun batteries in the gunner view.

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Was testing today damaging of rudder, for almost 20 minutes, the second player was hitting directly my rudder. I was in consti, he was in smaller ship. Even after 10 direct rudder hits nothing happen, it didnt even put my rudder to yellow.
Whats interesting tho, my magazine and pump was getting rekt pretty good.

Also demasting, its nearly impossible to demast now, one battle only for demasting oponent, who was in full sails, or standing still. No difference, nothing happen. But I think that problem was talked in some other topic.

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So what if i have to get from min elevation to almost max elevation in short time? Do i have to scroll for 1 min?

 

 

No but you shouldn't be able to change elevation and sideways movement like its a FPS. The whole point of this game is to try to simulate a different era of battle. So the fast adjustment in this game needs tweaking and slowing down. It just feels too "modern" at the moment. These guns are not modern balanced guns  with rapid movement but old heavy manually adjusted devices . But they feel nothing like that in game due to the crappy aiming system. They are trying to get the ships to sail and feel right but the combat aiming lets this feeling down big time.

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Then yes it was a bug.

 

Constitution, shot from front by, assuming 12 pounders, ruined my rudder, was an AI surprise, so which ever loadout you give them is what done me. Range of 100 yards or less, double shot aiming at second tier of sails.

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What about instead of the mouse wheel handling elevation, you leave a light grey bar the size/shape of the existing aim bar in place after you fire (by side)?  It would represent the last elevation, allow you to easily attain the same elevation after looking around or if you bump your mouse, and it wouldn't require locking the elevation to the scroll wheel?  It may not work as well for multi-deck ships, but it's a thought.

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Another bug assuming the enemy ship didn't have an autocannon  ;)

 

Constitution, I was in double shot range again, this time against a Constitution and a Surprise, took one broadside from the Constitution, got what was expected, bad damage nothing I could deal with, then the Surprise takes a pop, I got 69 white leaks and 34 red leaks, my ship instantly starts to fill with water, so I turn so I can lean on the other side stopping the leaks I have, both ships follow me in my maneuver.

 

Now I cannot return fire because I am leaning too far one way, and I am that close my cannons are aiming at mid way up his masts, so the Constitution pipes up and has another broadside on me, this time he hits me and gives me, 156 white leaks and over 50 red leaks, no cannon damage on my ship, no rudder, pump or magazine damage and from what I can tell the way my ship filled with water the bottom of it fell off.

 

It was quite comical actually and didn't manage to get an f11 or a screenshot due to the speed that it happened. I will try to recreate the same instance but it will be pretty hard.

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Was testing today damaging of rudder, for almost 20 minutes, the second player was hitting directly my rudder. I was in consti, he was in smaller ship. Even after 10 direct rudder hits nothing happen, it didnt even put my rudder to yellow.

Whats interesting tho, my magazine and pump was getting rekt pretty good.

Also demasting, its nearly impossible to demast now, one battle only for demasting oponent, who was in full sails, or standing still. No difference, nothing happen. But I think that problem was talked in some other topic.

 

I've noticed similar problems dismasting vessels.  I've hit the same Lynx mast two or three times with 24lb cannons from the tower, and nothing.  A mast the size of the one on a Lynx, taking one or more 24lb balls, should go by the board in short order IMO (I could be wrong).

 

No but you shouldn't be able to change elevation and sideways movement like its a FPS. The whole point of this game is to try to simulate a different era of battle. So the fast adjustment in this game needs tweaking and slowing down. It just feels too "modern" at the moment. These guns are not modern balanced guns  with rapid movement but old heavy manually adjusted devices . But they feel nothing like that in game due to the crappy aiming system. They are trying to get the ships to sail and feel right but the combat aiming lets this feeling down big time.

 

If they're going to do this, they'll need to find a way to better "lock" the aim so that you don't have it drifting while you're peeking at something.  Then again, perhaps they're a tad fast, but this is a game and we don't have hours to conduct a sailing battle.

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If they're going to do this, they'll need to find a way to better "lock" the aim so that you don't have it drifting while you're peeking at something.  Then again, perhaps they're a tad fast, but this is a game and we don't have hours to conduct a sailing battle.

 

 

The aim just needs leaving as it is when you look away or don't move any key. You could still use mouse look for general looking about while on the gun deck and use the ASWD keys for aiming the gun and elevating it. These then revert to the normal keys when you move away from the gun view . I am happy to use these keys to aim the gun as I tanked in Red Orchestra  using these keys for years. I think it works better than any mouse aim system for simulation of heavy guns being aimed. I preferred the RO system over the mouse aiming system in WOT. I think it adds more skill to your shooting having to use keys instead of super sensitive mice. War thunder is having this issue at the moment. Due to pixel perfect shooting with the mouse people are aiming for gun barrels all the time and making the game shite.

 

I can use the current system of aiming but it just doesn't feel "right" for a game like this. I also think the sails come down a bit too quick at the moment as well. Leading to ships stopping to fire and then moving away again. When the reality is that these sails weigh a lot and need teams of men on manual ropes pulling them up and down. On a smaller ship surely there would not be enough crew to do this and maintain the guns as depicted in this game. 

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After few tests I think the Sail Repair shoud get nerfed.

Yesterday in a battle sailing consti vs few wild wolves. They were demasting me hard for good few minutes.
When they got me to 60% or something like this i Use repair and got 95% of sail in a few seconds, and that was a pretty big hit for enemy morale. Why even try to demast very big ship for half battle? if he is like honey badger (don't give a sh*t) I know that there are people who can sunk Consti in a cutter, but most of people are not superheroes.

Maybe the amount of repaired sail could stay, but the time that it takes to repair should be different.

And my second idea, the hardcore one: If u want to repair sail You have to slow down to Minimum speed. But i dunno, it could have bad end, where everyone are demasting everyone, ending in static battles. ;d
 

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I want it to stay the same as today. But instead I suggest that masts should be possible to destroy, as with the bowsprit today when there is a collision. Instead of repairing to 100% I suggest that you only can repair a minor part of the sailing-capacity after a mast is destroyed. (An extra mast, which the ships always carried just in case.)

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JtbcwpM.jpg

 

Rammed the Trin amidships and double shotted her stern starboard.

 

About a minute later she sunk. Just seems like a bit of a feat for a cutter.

 

Mag.

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