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Damage, Cannons, Repairs, Firing, Aiming - suggestions and feedback

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Topics will be moderated heavily to stay on the subject. 

 

Format of the topic

 

In case of the problem

  • Problem
  • Why it is a problem
  • What should developers do to fix the problem

In case of praise of features you like format is free.

When discussing the problem please quote the problem you are referring to

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Cannons: Tried the 12lb carronades on the Lynx, got in close on someone and made their eyes water with one broadside, they stayed close and I got a double in on them next, they wet their pants on that one, good stuff. Tried them again in the next battle which was 5v5 and a lot of long range sniping couldn't nip in close and I didn't do so well. I like that they have strong points and weaknesses, it's realistic, spot on.

 

Didn't feel anything different using the long 6's, what should we be seeing there?

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Problem:

can't control the convergence of guns

 

Why this is a problem:

It seems a broadside is always fired with all cannons sighted parallel to each other. I don't know if there's an historical reason for this but i know that each gun could reasonably be trained at the same point, and i know that raking shots feel very wasted when half the shots miss, simply because ships are longer than they are wide.

 

What should developers do to fix the problem:

Perhaps a way to control the "focal point" of the guns. Holding shift+mousewheel could either "fan out" the azimuth of the guns or converge them. Elevation would be controlled the same as always.

 

 
My apologies if there is already some way to do this on the larger ships. there is no manual and i havent tried frigates yet so i have no idea if this is addressed by the larger ships.
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Problem: Long range chain shot

 

Why this is a problem:

I don't know how far real chain shot flew, back in the day, but the long range of the chain shot allows one to gain the anti-weather gage and rain chain down on enemies who can never catch you or heel their broadsides to reach you.  

 

What should developers do to fix the problem:

Shorter range chain shot would allow the chasers to get in range before their sails are destroyed.

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Does it bother the dev team that carronades are worthless and used by almost no one, even on the upper decks?

This is because the game gets everything wrong about carronades when trying to balance them.

 

The range is so short that it looks like we are lobbing rocks through the air with a catapult. In reality, carronades have a very flat trajectory, flatter than a long gun. And their short range and low accuracy is a myth.

http://www.thenrg.org/resources/articles/The%20carronade.pdf

https://ageofsail.wordpress.com/2009/02/28/introducing-the-carronade-the-range-myth/

The point-blank range of a carronade is 450 yards! The point-blank range of a 24-pounder long gun is less than 300 yards. That means that an unelevated carronade has a longer range than an unelevated long gun. In the game, you are lucky to hit anything more than 150 yards away, and this makes carronade armament suicidal. It will be a weapon used only by very daring eccentrics.

 

So here is a historically accurate proposal for rebalancing carronades:

  • Keep short range damage the same, but reduce the damage and velocity of shot at long range. Penetration ability should fall off rapidly, so at long ranges long guns are still king.
  • Given them proper flat trajectories that allow you to hit ships out to 400 yards.
  • Let them elevate slightly less than long guns.
  • Disable double shot ability, as this causes recoil problems.
  • Make accuracy and range very low for chainshot, because carronades require custom ammunition.
  • Rate of fire should be higher than long guns.

 

As a final note, the admin has noted that carronades fell out of favor. This was not because they were useless, so much as because they were responsible for a number of embarrassing defeats.

But the only reason that the carronade fell out of favor altogether was that the superior technology used in it barrel construction (allowing for less windage, hence better accuracy and flatter trajectory with lower powder charges) was adopted into the construction of more modern long guns.

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Does it bother the dev team that carronades are worthless and used by almost no one, even on the upper decks?

This is because the game gets everything wrong about carronades when trying to balance them.

 

The range is so short that it looks like we are lobbing rocks through the air with a catapult. In reality, carronades have a very flat trajectory, flatter than a long gun. And their short range and low accuracy is a myth.

http://www.thenrg.org/resources/articles/The%20carronade.pdf

https://ageofsail.wordpress.com/2009/02/28/introducing-the-carronade-the-range-myth/

The point-blank range of a carronade is 450 yards! The point-blank range of a 24-pounder long gun is less than 300 yards.

 

 

The physics of this makes no sense.  I think the carronade "myth" debunking is itself grounded too much in a single source with little to back it up.  Carronade has shorter barrel and less powder, but to balance this out to some unknown degree, it also has less windage.  At most you might be able to argue that this would result in ballistics similar to, but not better, than a long gun.  However, there are volumes of contempary anecdotes that indicate that carronades were found to have insufficient range.  Velocity = range and velocity would be determinative of point blank range.  It is impossible for gun to have higher point blank range (for the ball to reach further at 0° than a longer, higher velocity gun), but then have shorter max range, unless the ballistics of the ball itself were fundamentally different.  However, one way you might have a longer point blank range is if the elevation was not actually 0°, but was sighted from the back of the carronade to the front without compensation for the increased taper down to the muzzle, resulting in a higher elevation compared to the long gun in the same circumstance.  This would result in a longer "point blank" range although in fact the ball fired from the carronade would be arcing higher than the ball fired from the long gun.

 

That said, I think that the carronades in game are excessively limited in range/velocity to the point of absurdity.

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However, one way you might have a longer point blank range is if the elevation was not actually 0°, but was sighted from the back of the carronade to the front without compensation for the increased taper down to the muzzle, resulting in a higher elevation compared to the long gun in the same circumstance.

That may well be the case.

 

And the ballistics were different as well because carronade shot was hollow, and hence much lighter. So the already low-velocity shot will be slowed by air resistance more quickly, especially when comparing 32-lb carronade shot to 12lb roundshot or the like.

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That may well be the case.

 

And the ballistics were different as well because carronade shot was hollow, and hence much lighter. So the already low-velocity shot will be slowed by air resistance more quickly, especially when comparing 32-lb carronade shot to 12lb roundshot or the like.

 

I've seen conflicting info on hollow carronade shot, but that would certainly alter the ballistics.

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Problem

 Cannon sighting is hard due to the first shot coming from a random deck gun.(I still love gun ranging system)

 

Why it is a problem

 Having the first shot(the ranging shot) coming from an odd cannon(like in the middle or rear cannon) messes with the ability to put lead or to land a solid volley on target, considering on early ships(Lynx) firing a ranging shot means only 3 cannon for immediate follow up volley.

 

What should developers do to fix the problem

 Allowing players to fire a single known cannon via the nm pad or top number keys when press in combination with 'space', but only allow the first 4 cannons to be fired as ranging shots via the num + space combination on ships that have more then 4 cannons.

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 Cannon sighting is hard due to the first shot coming from a random deck gun.(I still love gun ranging system)

If you are fully loaded it always should be the first gun in the row (most forward)

right now its broken (see:here)

 

but if you are not completely loaded its always gonna be the first gun loaded wich will fire via spacebar. So thats basically "random" based on the reload speeds.

 

 

 Allowing players to fire a single known cannon via the nm pad or top number keys when press in combination with 'space', but only allow the first 4 cannons to be fired as ranging shots via the num + space combination on ships that have more then 4 cannons.

Are you aware that ther are ships with 12-15 guns per battery? the numpad cannot represent all of the guns in those.

Just sayin.

If im missing the point im sorry.

btw: you can disable decks to have only one deck rangeshooting. (F1-F4)

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If you are fully loaded it always should be the first gun in the row (most forward)

right now its broken (see:here)

 

but if you are not completely loaded its always gonna be the first gun loaded wich will fire via spacebar. So thats basically "random" based on the reload speeds.

 

Are you aware that ther are ships with 12-15 guns per battery? the numpad cannot represent all of the guns in those.

Just sayin.

If im missing the point im sorry.

btw: you can disable decks to have only one deck rangeshooting. (F1-F4)

 

What if it prioritised firing the guns in the centre first, and only fired outward ones when the centres are empty?

what about mouse wheel while aiming switching the camera to boresighting the next gun along, and it uses the one you are currently boresighting? It could also have a small hud indicator for whether the gun is loaded (though ideally down the line it should be obvious from the port being open and the carriage pushed forwards)

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well right now you can fire from front to aft wich i very often use on sternraking shots.

To achieve that you have to think about where the gun is mounted on your ship and adjust your aim.

a walkthrough while firing a broadside to the right side:

I assume I do have the right elevation. Now what I do is aim slightly more to the right of my opponent so my cannon on the front (perspetively on my left now) will hit him more likely where I want.

I manage to pour shot after shot into the stern of my enemies that way. It is reliably working for me. (despite the obvious accuracy discrepancy on the shots)

 

 

what about mouse wheel while aiming switching the camera to boresighting the next gun along

tat suggestion is simply brilliant I have to admit!

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another suggestion i have been thinking about a lot is, each time you fire a shot, it could leave a "ghost" of the reticule where it was when it last fired.

 

These guns were not on loose flexible mounts but had a wedge-shaped chock underneath the breech.

The thing that is bugging be about it currently is that you can't move your camera at all without "un-zeroing" your elevation, which in reality, i think, would be pretty rigid.

 

On top of that many cannons ive seen in photos had angle markers on the breech as well.

 

If i'm firing a cannon and i find a "sweet spot" for the range im currently shooting at, i would not move the block at all. in game it's very easy to accidentally shift the elevation.

 

If a transparent white "ghost" of the previous shot was left each time you fired, you could use it as a reference point for what the guns were last elevated to.

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These guns were not on loose flexible mounts but had a wedge-shaped chock underneath the breech.

The thing that is bugging be about it currently is that you can't move your camera at all without "un-zeroing" your elevation, which in reality, i think, would be pretty rigid.

We already have enormous gunnery advantages compared to real world. Elevation for an individual gun was fixed, but until very late in the era it was rough and down to the individual crew to guess proper elevation. Most importantly, however, it was completely unstabilized so actual elevation was constantly changing. This made gunnery a very uncertain process and long-range gunnery extremely difficult.

In-game we have a hybrid system where we can very precisely control the elevation of all guns in concert, and on top of that our aim is partially stabilized. Consequently hitting at close to mid-range is very easy compared to reality, and hitting at long-range significantly easier. But its a good system as it maintains an element of uncertainty in very long range gunnery that encourages players to get closer, especially when the sea is rougher.

Note: you can hold the ALT key to look around without changing your aimpoint.

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problem.

Knowing quickly how much water is flooding my ship.

 

Why is it a problem.

When I am in battle I tend to have enough to worry about so tend to not notice how much water I am shipping.

 

solution.

 add a visual indicator to the current damage model top left. something along the lines of adding a water line to the icon and then filling the square with a representation of water. That way I can look at this and easily see how I am doing.

 

__________________________________

I                                                                  I

I  _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _  I

I                                                                  I

I_________________________________I

 

Something like the above. The ship icons can be over the top of this and then the water gradually fills the graphic.

This would also work for any "target" ships as well.

 

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Did you notice that your compass is slowly but surely beeing filled with blue wich represents the ammount of water you take?

If thats what you are looking for we already have it.

If not I dont understand what you mean xD

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We already have enormous gunnery advantages compared to real world. Elevation for an individual gun was fixed, but until very late in the era it was rough and down to the individual crew to guess proper elevation. Most importantly, however, it was completely unstabilized so actual elevation was constantly changing. This made gunnery a very uncertain process and long-range gunnery extremely difficult.

In-game we have a hybrid system where we can very precisely control the elevation of all guns in concert, and on top of that our aim is partially stabilized. Consequently hitting at close to mid-range is very easy compared to reality, and hitting at long-range significantly easier. But its a good system as it maintains an element of uncertainty in very long range gunnery that encourages players to get closer, especially when the sea is rougher.

Note: you can hold the ALT key to look around without changing your aimpoint.

 

I know about the alt key, but something i find bothersome is you have to be very careful to have completely stopped the mouse from moving before you release it, otherwhise you risk losing your elevation. It just doesnt "feel" right to have to be delicate with the aiming of something as big and heavy as a deck gun. A captain simply glancing around the ship shouldn't have the effect of destabilising every single gun on a whole side of the ship.

 

Note that i'm not talking about marking the elevation relative to the waterline but relative to the ship - You'd have to guess if the heel angle was close to where it was on the previous shot.

 

Basically what i'm getting at is the process should be shoot-adjust-shoot, not shoot-lose position completely-try to remember position-adjust-shoot

 

When you mention that it was up to individual crew to lay the guns themselves it got me thinking. Is there anything in-game representing the gunners' ability to zero in on a target with each subsequent shot? If we are representing the imperfection of each gunner's shot, why not their ability to adjust based on where the shot lands?

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Does it bother the dev team that carronades are worthless and used by almost no one, even on the upper decks?

This is because the game gets everything wrong about carronades when trying to balance them.

 

The range is so short that it looks like we are lobbing rocks through the air with a catapult. In reality, carronades have a very flat trajectory, flatter than a long gun. And their short range and low accuracy is a myth.

http://www.thenrg.org/resources/articles/The%20carronade.pdf

https://ageofsail.wordpress.com/2009/02/28/introducing-the-carronade-the-range-myth/

The point-blank range of a carronade is 450 yards! The point-blank range of a 24-pounder long gun is less than 300 yards. That means that an unelevated carronade has a longer range than an unelevated long gun. In the game, you are lucky to hit anything more than 150 yards away, and this makes carronade armament suicidal. It will be a weapon used only by very daring eccentrics.

In the pdf article, point blank range for a 64lb carronade is 450 yards.  A 12lb carronade is only 230 yards. (page 6).  I don't know what the point blank range for a 12lb long gun is.

 

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In the pdf article, point blank range for a 64lb carronade is 450 yards.  A 12lb carronade is only 230 yards. (page 6).  I don't know what the point blank range for a 12lb long gun is.

 

 

Depends on wether it was a regular or long gun, 12 lb'er long gun had a point blank range of around 460 yards, roughly the same as 24 & 32 pdr long guns.

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Cunningham, your source on the last page indicates 250 yds point blank range for a 24 pounder.

 

Depends on the make of the gun and the charge used, the point blank range of a 24 pdr long gun could be as much as 600+ yards (such as Bloomfield & Congreve's 24 pdr) depending on the make.

 

A regular 24 pdr might very well have a usual point blank range of 250 yards using a charge 1/3rd the weight of the ball, and one of 450 yards using a charge half the weight of the ball. (The gun was usually a little longer if intended for heavier charges)

 

It was however a known fact that long guns outranged carronades, something that became painfully obvious for the ships only carrying carronades on a number of occasions during the era.

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Using a charge 1/3rd the weight of shot with guns of different caliber but same length:

szcCVP5.png

 

A 24 pdr with the same L/D ratio would've naturally had a greater PB range, but usually this also meant strengthening the gun itself for a larger charge. 

 

That having been said you could only benefit from increasing the length the gun to a certain point with the black powder guns as the powder didn't accelerate for as long as modern smokeless powders. Thus the absurdely long guns known as Culverins that were so pupolar in the 16th hundreds were pretty much just waste of metal, their great range owing to their larger powder charge and not the length of the barrel.

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