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Speed, turning, wind angles, heel, sails - suggestions and feedback

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Would like a more "Helmsman" feel to the rudder controls.  Hard starboard, or port is fine for tacking or close quarters maneuvering, but a subtle, but constant change of course would be useful. Maybe a single tap of A or D, would lock the rudder 10 degrees each progressive tap.

 

On a different note. Found the tacking suggestions and videos very useful.  Have practiced the technique and still get caught in irons every once in a while, which is costly in the damage department, but generally works well.  I also like the idea of a practice sea where some sailing skills can be developed and maybe an empty meat cask or two to exercise the guns.

 

My two cents on wind shadow.  It's a very valid tactic to blanket other ships to take away the wind and it would be nice if it could be taken into consideration for inclusion in NA.

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But then modern navies today say right and left rudder. As in "Right (Left) 10 Degrees Rudder: Indicates a turn of the rudder a designated number of degrees to the right or to the left of amidships." Again to simplify presumably.

 

See http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/commands_order.htm

 Not entirely true...the Royal Navy has not ever used Left and Right Rudder orders, Port and Starboard only I am afraid. The only time Left and Right are used is specifically to avoid any confusion between a direct rudder order to the helmsman from the Officer of the Watch or whomsoever "has" the ship at any given time and a Control Order from the Captain, Navigator, Principal Warfare Officer who would instruct the Officer of the Watch (Deck if you are a recalcitrant colonial :P ) Come right 20 degrees or Come Left 230. Those Control orders may also be Prefixed Slow or Hard to indicate to the Officer of the Watch the amount of wheel (yeah we don't talk about rudder either...) to be used where Slow  = 5 degrees of wheel, Hard = Full 30/35 degrees depending on the maximum available and with no qualification a standard 15 degrees is used.

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Would love to see royals on the bigger ships, maybe even skysails and moonrakers/skyscrapers. Hopefully some studdingsails (stu'n's'ls) for the open world, so I can get out of the doldroms faster.

 

E: Look at all this beautiful canvas:

Regina_Maris_monnraker_and_studding_1.gi

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Would love to see royals on the bigger ships, maybe even skysails and moonrakers/skyscrapers. Hopefully some studdingsails (stu'n's'ls) for the open world, so I can get out of the doldroms faster.

 

E: Look at all this beautiful canvas:

Regina_Maris_monnraker_and_studding_1.gi

 

I can't believe some of the sails up around the bow, bowsprit, and jibboom (not sure if there is even a jibboom with it so encased in canvas).  Verrrrry interesting.

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A little more turn rate please. I'm sure turn rate has been a hot topic many times over but here is why I'd like to see a tad more maneuverability. Ship maneuvers. I am big time on out maneuvering my opponent. it's very difficult to do so currently. As it stands fights seem very linear. Literally swapping broadsides and the only advantage is to out shoot the enemy.

 

With more maneuverability (turn rate) players will not only learn how to aim, but also move their ship like a chess piece on the sea. This will result in a more variety game play by out turning or stern camping an opponent.

 

My thoughts.

 

-Cannonball

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Are you using manual sails? Did you watch me maneuver around both of your brigs and trin in the battle we just had? Once you learn how to use manual sails (watch ramjb's videos) you will be able to spin like a top if you want.

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A little more turn rate please. I'm sure turn rate has been a hot topic many times over but here is why I'd like to see a tad more maneuverability

 

More?

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=54G7DBGcJKI#t=1299

 

That's a Victory. A big, fat arsed, heavy as heck, first rate, which is able to turn and fall upon the rear of a Santisima Trinidad which is sitting at less than a shiplenght's distance off to her side. 90 degrees in less than her actual lenght. That's literally pivoting on spot. And that's a first rate. Go figure what the frigates or brigs are able to pull off.

 

Ships don't need more maneouverability. Players need to learn manual sail controls ;).

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Slide and drift.

 

I know these ships don't have brakes, and I know we want historically accuracy.... Could we get a slightly quicker response when slowing down please. 

I love to cut behind an enemy or attempt to sit on someones stern but the 30 second slide to a stop is very difficult to manage when building a plan of attack of defense. Line fighting also becomes an issue, players will naturally space out to far apart from one another to be an effective line in fear of rear ending the ship in front of them. 

 

In closing, slightly improved stopped power across all ships will make for better use of one on one and group tactics from stopping to cut behind an enemy ship to better line fighting.

 

Let me know your thoughts.

 

-Cannonball

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I love to cut behind an enemy or attempt to sit on someones stern but the 30 second slide to a stop is very difficult to manage when building a plan of attack of defense.

 

It's called inertia and controlling it is part of the challenge of becoming a good captain. You can't get rid of inertia in a game with such a realistic background as this one.

 

Also, you don't drop the sails to slow down. You neutralize or even use them against the wind if you want to come to a fast stop. Totally furling sails in combat is a huge mistake 99% of the time.

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Inertia in this game is far too strong, however, and the proof is in the tacking.

 

In Naval Action, you could work your way up to 15 knots, then press a debug button to completely dismast yourself, and still have enough momentum to tack easily. The most effective means of tacking is to back your mainsail while still on a beam reach, thus exerting an enormous deceleration force. And yet even the floating brick S. Trinidad can power through the upwind turn and effectively come about this way. In real life even a ship that was fast in stays needed every ounce of drive from its canvas at this juncture.

 

Ships should bleed the top 50% of their speed very quickly when propulsion is lost. You feel this at work when you sail any boat: start a sheet or lose the wind and there is an instant sagging back.

 

That's because the resistance of the water increases greatly with speed. Sure, inertia will result in your ship sliding for hundred of yards if you drop all sail, and wind/tide will ensure that it never really stops at all. But it won't take long at all to lose the majority of your momentum.

 

The devs view inertia as a balance issue, preventing quick stops. So I propose to increase inertia at low speeds and decrease it at high and medium speeds. Make it an exponential decrease varying directly with speed.

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Hi guys - first post from a newcomer.

 

While I'm waiting for my Steam key to arrive this Friday I have been devouring the videos of this potentially fantastic sim/game since having just missed the deadline last week. Two things have become apparent with the controls/sailing characteristics of the ships - rudder control and the ability to reef the sails.

 

I must have played and enjoyed nearly every simulation of fighting sail since the 90's and having been involved in online fleet actions previously, A common problem that existed in most of them was the lack of analogue helm controls and the ability to reef sails to adjust speed for the prevalent conditions and battle formations. The ability to make small adjustments in speed and heading without having to keep tapping the rudder keys or make major changes in setting the sails means that station keeping becomes a lot easier and you can concentrate on fighting as a fleet rather than worrying about collisions and wrecking a formation. The only other thing I would add is the ability to multi-crew a single ship separating the command/sailing/gunnery positions to enable each player to concentrate of their particular discipline and responsibilities, but that appears to be outside of the scope of this game.

 

Looking forward to fighting with you all - roll on Friday!

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Welcome Mr. Vasco!  Glad to have you aboard.

 

Fine sail control is still not quite available other than major pre-sets.  We're all hopeful that the Devs will find a way to implement mechanics that require reefing, reducing sail to save the masts/yards, etc. though.

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Wind stealing

Will not be implemented. You probably already know that trolling will happen and wind stealing its impossible to defend against and track. Trolls can safely ruin your experience without any opportunity for us to prove they did it.

 

Turning while stationary.

We needed to give a player the ability to at least turn slowly You can for example assume that your sailors are using wind, anchors, boats to turn your ship. It is possible logically, and it is not magic. 

 

Correct apparent wind and heel

We are gradually improving the system. It is currently (good enough) and we have other areas completely lacking that also need our attention. Once we plug all leaks we will improve heel and wind mechanics. 

 

 

Fore-aft rigs will be fixed based on feedback

Square rigs will be also tuned based on feedback.

 

Nice to hear you guys are on this. My feeling is that different pointing characteristics of the various rigs is a pretty high priority - not sure if others would agree. I think it's a pretty critical component which adds a lot of interesting game play and tactical options. Without it, makes the fore and aft rigs just under-powered square-riggers.

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Moving the yards should be slower slightly, changing sails should also be slower.  There needs to be a significant increase in time it takes to go from 0 to 25% sails.  Also, when going from 25% to 0% sails you should continue sliding for a lot longer.

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A novel could be written about yard rotation speeds.

 

Generally speaking, bracing yards in should be very fast, and bracing yards up should be very slow.

 

Yards should turn fast when they are pointed directly at the wind, and one a beam reach, yards that are backed should swivel back to the normal position quickly. Except in the storm maps.

 

When your bow is in the wind, swivelling yards should be very slow. Unless the wind is 1-10 degrees off your windward bow, in which case the rear yards swivel at maximum speed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

*Brace in=swivel yards for upwind course, Brace up=make them squarer, as if for downwind course

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I think the slowing effect of turning yards to back your sails or put them in line wit the wind should be stronger, currently it has very limited effect and can't really be used to slow down your ship or make even sharper turns at the cost of speed. This also has effects when using manual sails to aid turning because in the current state of the game you can often just bang your sails all the way around to turn as fast as possible without any concern for losing speed.

 

I can see the merit in having the effect be weaker to make manual sailing and tacking easier for beginners but it makes more complicated maneuvers less rewarding and harder to pull off and this game doesn't seem to be about about dumbing things down at the expense of game play.

 

I did a quick test in the snow to make sure I wasn't imagining the weak effect as i struggled to slow my ships in the heat of battle. I set my heading 90 degrees to the wind and adjusted the angle of my yards as i took readings of my speed with different sail settings. I should add that the ship was allowed to stabilize speed before each reading and the slowing effect took a decent amount of time before it hit these numbers. Here are the results.

 

chart2.png
table.png

 

You can see that taking the sails out of optimum angle lowers the speed pretty linearly but fails to stop the ship completely. I tihnk the different gradient when in the battle sails mode will be because only the topsails are set on the snow when in this mode compared to 50% where both the coarse and topsails are set. Meaning that since there is less sail turned against the wind there is less force acting backwards. I think its great that this difference exists and shows the level of detail the devs went to when designing the sailing physics. I would think different ships would have different characteristics but I think the linear pattern and inability to come to a complete stop will hold true.

 

It doesn't really make sense to me that the ship should still be moving forward when the sails are backed. With a ship at 90 degrees to the wind with the square sails fully backed then its only the spanker and stays pushing the ship forwards against the all of the square sails pushing backwards.

 

I'd like to see the effect of rotating yards out of the wind be increased and the effect of backing sails be increased to the point where fully backing the sails on a 90 degree to the wind tack moves the ship backwards. This would make tacking more realistic, improve the stopping ability of ships through a skill based mechanic, allow for more possibilities for advanced maneuvers like box-hauling, and give manual sailing more of a risk/reward feel as accidentally backing your sails in a turn will hurt your speed and possibly lose you position.

 

And because I've probably bored you all with this essay here's a picture of a ship backing its main sails to hold or slow its position. Probably so it can be easily reached and boarded by the rowboats in the foreground.

post-45-0-59773000-1362513780.jpg

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Kudos, Sudobee.

The culprit for the problem you have identified is the fore-and-aft canvas.

You can do whatever you want to the yards, but the game provides no way of dousing or de-powering the jibs, staysails and spanker. These sails are capable (in the game, not in real life) of propelling the ship along at 2-3 knots on almost every point of the compass. This is why heaving to is nigh impossible, and why people find it necessary to mash the S key like a handbrake.

There is a simple fix, however. When one or more of the masts is backed, the fore-and-aft sails should lose 80% of their power automatically. This represents the fact that the crew would be slacking the sheets in such a situation.

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After making my way up the ships. I had a thought, do the line ships go from 0% to 100% sails in the same time as smaller ships do? I feel like the SOL do not sail like i would expect. They are faster, turn better and most of all accelerate to fast. Am i on to something or do they feel right to everyone else?

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