Inverted Artillery Battery Performance

[The Soldier]

So, this is something I noticed when starting a new Confederate playthrough - small artillery batteries really seem to outperform larger artillery batteries of similar experience.  For example, if you take the two starting batteries in the Union starting lineup (Woods and Scales), they have nearly identical stats.  Give both 3-Inch Ordnance Rifles, but leave Woods at 6 guns and give Scales 24 guns (and replace the commander with someone who can handle 24 guns).  Woods with his 6 guns will most likely outperform the 24-gun battery.  I have no idea why this is true, but it seems like the smaller the battery is, the better it'll perform - just look at the 3-gun battery given to the Union at the start of Gettysburg.  That thing can rack up 1000 kills before the end of the first day (given though, it's got 99 in every stat except Firearms and Command).

[Wright29]

I'm not sure about the actual economics. But from my experience, batteries start to experience diminishing returns after the 9th or 10th gun. It's rather frustrating because one would think that a battery with 12 guns in the same position and with the same quality men would do twice as well as a battery with 6 guns. I'm sure it's done for game balancing reasons, but to have weird results like OP reported is rather illogical for a stylized war game. 

In a game like this, you need to obey some simple economic laws (for the artillery units in this case): 
1. The more men you have in a brigade, the more it does. It is ok if there is diminishing returns, but there cannot be a point after which there are negative returns. 
2. Unrelated to the post, but still important- the more expensive a gun is, the better it has to perform in a certain niche. 24 lb Howtizers are more expensive than 12 lb Howtizers and are much better. Guns like the James and the Tredgar are instant sells for me as they have no place in an efficient army. If a gun doesn't serve a purpose or fit a niche, then it shouldn't be in the game. 

Players must always be incentivized to get bigger and better artillery units at every level, otherwise it gives them the ability to game the system. 

[Col_Kelly]

17 hours ago, The Soldier said:

So, this is something I noticed when starting a new Confederate playthrough - small artillery batteries really seem to outperform larger artillery batteries of similar experience.  For example, if you take the two starting batteries in the Union starting lineup (Woods and Scales), they have nearly identical stats.  Give both 3-Inch Ordnance Rifles, but leave Woods at 6 guns and give Scales 24 guns (and replace the commander with someone who can handle 24 guns).  Woods with his 6 guns will most likely outperform the 24-gun battery.  I have no idea why this is true, but it seems like the smaller the battery is, the better it'll perform - just look at the 3-gun battery given to the Union at the start of Gettysburg.  That thing can rack up 1000 kills before the end of the first day (given though, it's got 99 in every stat except Firearms and Command).

That's because 24 gun batteries have low efficiency unless you give them a Major General to command them, which is rather unlikely in early campaign. Efficiency is the most important stat for batteries.

[JaM]

yes, but its probably too much.. having 12 guns in a battery vs 3 guns should not mean that 3guns should outperform those 12.. I agree there should be some decrease, but definitely not as big to completely negate the quantity advantage... large batteries should be effective, because they can concentrate fire better than  dispersed small batteries that rely on messengers to acquire targets for artillery fire concentration..  current setup kinda defers the base Napoleonic principle about artillery concentration, that was quite essential during Civil War..

[The Soldier]

1 hour ago, Col_Kelly said:

That's because 24 gun batteries have low efficiency unless you give them a Major General to command them, which is rather unlikely in early campaign. Efficiency is the most important stat for batteries.

I've played enough to clearly know how Efficiency and Command work, Kelly.  I even noted that in my OP.  Just give a high enough ranked Divisional commander and Brigade commander and they can handle 24 guns no problem.  You can check by just hovering over the Efficiency bar and seeing if there's angry red text complaining about the officer not having high enough rank to command this amount of men.

Edited March 14, 2017 by The Soldier

[Col_Kelly]

29 minutes ago, The Soldier said:

I've played enough to clearly know how Efficiency and Command work, Kelly.  I even noted that in my OP.  Just give a high enough ranked Divisional commander and Brigade commander and they can handle 24 guns no problem.  You can check by just hovering over the Efficiency bar and seeing if there's angry red text complaining about the officer not having high enough rank to command this amount of men.

"Give both 3-Inch Ordnance Rifles, but leave Woods at 6 guns and give Scales 24 guns (and replace the commander with someone who can handle 24 guns)." 

I just don't see how you can have a high rank battery commander by the second mission of the campaign. No need to put on an aggressive tone either. 

[The Soldier]

4 minutes ago, Col_Kelly said:

I just don't see how you can have a high rank battery commander by the second mission of the campaign. No need to put on an aggressive tone either. 

If you've got a Colonel as a Divisional commander, all you need to get a 24-gun battery is a Brigadier General.  You can get 3 right off the bat if you're playing on Normal or Hard - yourself, a BG from the Academy, or John Gibbon from the Government (for the Confederates it's yourself, Glen Ferrero from the Academy, or James Archer from the Government).  Also; this:

It wasn't an aggressive tone, more annoyed because I mentioned that I knew how Efficiency and Command worked, and not necessarily from the start of the campaign.

Edited March 14, 2017 by The Soldier

[Col_Kelly]

7 minutes ago, The Soldier said:

If you've got a Colonel as a Divisional commander, all you need to get a 24-gun battery is a Brigadier General.  You can get 3 right off the bat if you're playing on Normal or Hard - yourself, Glen Ferrero from the Academy, or James Archer from the Government.  Also; this

 

http://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198047221884/screenshot/84845992353804969

Or did you mean a Major General instead of Colonel as Divisional commander ? That would be doable in early campaign but would be weird as you'd deprive the whole corps of a rank 2 commander.

[The Soldier]

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/93853157885851299/067C5D4C3AE19323AAA66B6417F1EAB9FF060F20/

Works for me.  That's the Brigadier General I bought from the Academy I mentioned above, no previous experience from Newport News or 1st Bull Run.  The Divisional commander is the starting Colonel, Tom Preston with half experience toward Brigadier General.  That's not the point of this thread though, Kelly.

Edited March 14, 2017 by The Soldier

[Col_Kelly]

10 minutes ago, The Soldier said:

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/93853157885851299/067C5D4C3AE19323AAA66B6417F1EAB9FF060F20/

Works for me.  That's the Brigadier General I bought from the Academy I mentioned above, no previous experience from Newport News or 1st Bull Run.  The Divisional commander is the starting Colonel, Tom Preston with half experience toward Brigadier General.  That's not the point of this thread though, Kelly.

It is very much the point. I'm not saying you're wrong but to make sure there is a bug here every possibility has to be considered. Beside even if the commander is good enough to avoid an efficiency penalty the 24 gun batteries will still be much worse stat wise (unless u only bring in veterans but that seems too expensive). To make sure your claim is right you'd have to compare with two units having similar stats and place them in similar positions on the battlefield. 

[The Soldier]

3 minutes ago, Col_Kelly said:

It is very much the point. I'm not saying you're wrong but to make sure there is a bug here every possibility has to be considered. Beside even if the commander is good enough to avoid an efficiency penalty the 24 gun batteries will still be much worse stat wise (unless u only bring in veterans but that seems to expensive). To make sure your claim is right you'd have to compare with two units having similar stats and place them in similar positions on the battlefield. 

So, you're pretty much saying you don't believe me.  Fine, let me start up Cheat Engine and get the point across - hopefully you won't take too much offense, I'm doing it in the name of science.

[Col_Kelly]

1 hour ago, The Soldier said:

So, you're pretty much saying you don't believe me.  Fine, let me start up Cheat Engine and get the point across - hopefully you won't take too much offense, I'm doing it in the name of science.

I'm not saying that, why would you lie on the matter ? Maybe you're right and if that's the case that's fine by me (please ask Mercanto or thomas aagaard if I can admit my mistake or not).

Please go on with that experiment, if your impression is confirmed then the devs will have solid evidence to work with. 

[The Soldier]

3 minutes ago, Col_Kelly said:

I'm not saying that, why would you lie on the matter ? Maybe you're right and if that's the case that's fine by me (please ask Mercanto or thomas argaard if I never acknowledge my mistake or not).

Please go on with that experiment, if your impression is confirmed then the devs will have solid evidence to work with. 

Well, wanting more proof and thinking I'm lying are two different things - either way, I'll get a test save for you all.

[sonnypemberton]

I'm thinking it probably has something to do with CSA vs union - I always have worse penalties with union, and morale for that matter. I have no issues maxing out on CSA.

[The Soldier]

Alrighty, did an initial test at Stay Alert with 6 gun, 12 gun, and 24-gun batteries.  My save file just before Stay Alert is provided - all 3 test batteries have the exact same stats.

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/93853157885991543/852CAC3C064A8B4E39B80181509903A83FFB6098/

During this test, I kept the batteries as high in condition as I could and the same distance away from any enemies.  As you can see, the 24-gun battery did the poorest out of all the test batteries, and the 12-gun battery did the best.  The 6-gun battery was very, very close behind the 12-gun battery - however, the 6-gun battery got off a checky Canister shot that the rest of the test batteries didn't get a chance at, but it shouldn't skew the results too much.  Furthermore; the 24-gun battery was doing even poorer than represented most of the battle until the very end when it got a spike in it's kill count, probably due to a very lucky role on a barrage.

lf0i5mic.6t8

Edited March 14, 2017 by The Soldier

[Col_Kelly]

28 minutes ago, The Soldier said:

Alrighty, did an initial test at Stay Alert with 6 gun, 12 gun, and 24-gun batteries.  My save file just before Stay Alert is provided - all 3 test batteries have the exact same stats.

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/93853157885991543/852CAC3C064A8B4E39B80181509903A83FFB6098/

During this test, I kept the batteries as high in condition as I could and the same distance away from any enemies.  As you can see, the 24-gun battery did the poorest out of all the test batteries, and the 12-gun battery did the best.  The 6-gun battery was very, very close behind the 12-gun battery - however, the 6-gun battery got off a checky Canister shot that the rest of the test batteries didn't get a chance at, but it shouldn't skew the results too much.  Furthermore; the 24-gun battery was doing even poorer than represented most of the battle until the very end when it got a spike in it's kill count, probably due to a very lucky role on a barrage.

lf0i5mic.6t8

Fair enough, ran a few tests myself firing at the same unit at the same time and from the same distance with the 6 guns and 24 guns units. Results are similar if not in favor of the 6 guns battery. You are indeed right sir  . Nice bug-hunting. 

[sonnypemberton]

so at this rate, running say 8 divisions of 6 24pdr in a major battle would really be something 

[Wandering1]

One thing that is not exactly detailed in the kill count: how often were the batteries turning?

A 6-12 gun brigade will turn a lot faster than a 24 gun brigade, and thus the 24 gun will get fewer shots off.

[The Soldier]

11 minutes ago, Wandering1 said:

One thing that is not exactly detailed in the kill count: how often were the batteries turning?

A 6-12 gun brigade will turn a lot faster than a 24 gun brigade, and thus the 24 gun will get fewer shots off.

Not often.  If they did, I gave a Hold Fire order to the 3 test batteries until all were on target.

Edited March 14, 2017 by The Soldier

[Wandering1]

4 minutes ago, The Soldier said:

Not often.  If they did, I gave a Hold Fire order to the 3 test batteries.

Not sure how the reload mechanics work if you Hold Fire, since I haven't gotten too deep into testing how often they reload from turning. Do the batteries reload while you have the Hold Fire button active after turning? Another symptom could be that the larger batteries take longer to reload, but this I'm not sure about since I don't stare at my artillery often.

Edited March 14, 2017 by Wandering1

[The Soldier]

2 minutes ago, Wandering1 said:

Not sure how the reload mechanics work if you Hold Fire, since I haven't gotten too deep into testing how often they reload from turning. Do the batteries reload while you have the Hold Fire button active after turning? Another symptom could be that the larger batteries take longer to reload, but this I'm not sure about since I don't stare at my artillery often.

While turning, they don't reload, but on Hold Fire, they reload at normal rates.  Larger batteries also reload at the same rates as smaller batteries, however do note that RNG determines how quickly a battery will get off it's barrage and start the reload - although it appears equally random for all sized batteries.

[Wandering1]

4 minutes ago, The Soldier said:

While turning, they don't reload, but on Hold Fire, they reload at normal rates.  Larger batteries also reload at the same rates as smaller batteries, however do note that RNG determines how quickly a battery will get off it's barrage and start the reload - although it appears equally random for all sized batteries.

Good to know. I doubt this is also the case, but it was not specifically mentioned in the testing above: you never ran out of supply on the 24 gun battery, correct? There are multiple reasons you don't bring 24 gun batteries in the current build of the game; turning speed, enemy cannon scaling, and supply consumption are just some of the more tangential factors in terms of performance that I wanted to make sure was isolated from the results.

[veji1]

I would understand 24 guns not being optimal, the same way a player is better off having one 2000 and one 1000 men infantry brigade rather than a 3000 one : more tactical flexibility, etc... So far I have tended to use 16 guns brigade, but I might have to downgrade to 12..

[The Soldier]

22 minutes ago, Wandering1 said:

Good to know. I doubt this is also the case, but it was not specifically mentioned in the testing above: you never ran out of supply on the 24 gun battery, correct? There are multiple reasons you don't bring 24 gun batteries in the current build of the game; turning speed, enemy cannon scaling, and supply consumption are just some of the more tangential factors in terms of performance that I wanted to make sure was isolated from the results.

None of the batteries ran out of supply.  One of the batteries got down to the white blinking supply icon, but I got my wagon over before it got any more serious.

If you do want to make sure, I did provide the (cheated) save file.

Edited March 14, 2017 by The Soldier

[Wandering1]

3 minutes ago, The Soldier said:

None of the batteries ran out of supply.

One last question before this phase of interrogation is satisfied: were all 3 of the batteries on the same type of terrain for all of their guns (as in the models in game)?

Just as there were damage modifiers for cavalry in the trees (you can see on the tooltip damage%), there are likely damage modifiers for artillery as well, just not as severe as the cavalry case.