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Structural damage feedback - testbed server - moderated/structured response required

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Cmdr RideZ    604
5 hours ago, Cecil Selous said:

1. Never was a fan of this and it seems to be gone with the introduced structure.

2. Then you must really love this new dmg model :D . Just had a fleet mission, where I bullied smaller ships in a Victory. I took aim at a Belle Poule with 20% starboard armor and 85% structure left. My broadside totally obliterated him and destroyed both. Sunk 30 sec. after this. For me it is a too much and too fast but the general idea is awesome.

1. You do not like the current system of shooting armor off?  Making your enemy to sink?

2. A. You cannot tank with a void armor  B. Repair Kits work better  C. Values may need tuning, but after we get those right, should be better than the system we have now.

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Cecil Selous    334

Yes, I don't like that ships sink, when I hit them above the waterline until an artificial health bar is at 0%. But I can live with that and can see that this is a feature for various gameplay reasons.

And I agree with you that structure is a good new idea which still needs some tweaking.

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Cmdr RideZ    604
38 minutes ago, Cecil Selous said:

Yes, I don't like that ships sink, when I hit them above the waterline until an artificial health bar is at 0%

I suppose hp bars could just define how well grapes make crew damage.  HP = How much protection you have vs shots that wont penetrate.

We would be killing/destroying each others crew, cannons and rigging.

Only way to sink would be waterline shots.

I suppose something like that could work, might be even more realistic system.

 

My point about structure was just for the current system.

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Cecil Selous    334
38 minutes ago, Cmdr RideZ said:

I suppose hp bars could just define how well grapes make crew damage.  HP = How much protection you have vs shots that wont penetrate.

We would be killing/destroying each others crew, cannons and rigging.

Only way to sink would be waterline shots.

I suppose something like that could work, might be even more realistic system.

 

Right, that would be great for me. If it would work is another thing. Right now we have to either board or sink a ship to end a battle. Many players simply don't surrender even if they absolutely lose a battle without any chance to survive or gain the upper hand again. And that's where gameplay comes into the mix and current sinking mechanics make some sense to lower potential of griefing. 

At the moment the structure is somehow just another bar which increases your hp pool. It is not really connected to hitboxes (at least that's what I figured until now) and simply further broadsides will lower it very fast. But it gives a player a last chance to think about surrendering and like you said lowers the effectivness of tanking with zero armor and forces you to use your repair earlier.

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The Red Duke    5,951

Stick to the Structured testing posts please.

Objective is to test as is, not as it should be.

Snappy Salute.

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Ned Loe    3,784
1 hour ago, JonSnowLetsGo said:

I cant test anything because there are almost no players on the server (maximum i saw was 2). :/

I think someone predicted this a while ago. ;) I will log in later on today. 

Edited by Ned Loe

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Yar Matey    760
  • Yar Matey
  • Victory vs AI Constitution,  Victory vs AI Endymion (there was no players to test the damage model against)
  • 2 battles in total

Something that has bothered me about this game is the imbalance that exists between Frigates and Line Ships that has developed since the splinter patch.  The addition of the structural damage patch does not resolve this issue but seems like it will make the issue worse.  A small group of frigates can already easily defeat a 1st rate by stern raking in our current damage model, and broadsides from ships of the line (3-1st rates)  are simply not devastating enough against smaller 5th and 4th rate ships.  Yes, you can crew shock them, but 30 seconds of crew shock is simply shrugged off and then the smaller frigate continues to stern rake the line ship. 

 

I think structure should take damage inversely proportional to the percentage loss of the sides on a penetrating shot; if a cannonball hits the side of a ship, and is at 100%, the structure will take 0% damage, if the side is at 90%, then the structure will take 10% of the damage that the side took.  If the side is at 15%, then the structure will take 85% of the damage if a cannonball hits and penetrates the ships side.  Stern rakes should do very little damage to the structure if any at all and bow rakes should cause a maximum of 10% structure loss. Thus, if one side is completely stripped, then 50% of the structure should be left assuming that the structure has the same amount of HP as one side. 

 

Also, as many have pointed out, stern raking is still way overpowered.  I was single shooting the constitution to see how much damage and crew were being killed by each individual shot.  I will try and test stern raking further tonight against AI ships if I cannot find any players to duel. 

In the one battle against the Constitution, there was a tower shooting at it,  I believe that the towers did not need an accuracy buff, and they are too powerful now.  I had the Constitution chase me out of range of the towers, and a significant amount of HP were stripped from the ship. 

Edited by Yar Matey

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Intrepido    1,958

Yeah, 20-30 seconds of crew shock usually means nothing. And sometimes even you dont triggered one after a SoL broadside if the frigate angles.

I thought in the first tests that this hotfix would finally erase the high stern dame to structure, we will need to wait for more hotfixes.

 

About towers and forts, maybe they are ok against frigates but a SoL (think about player made yellow ones (lot of stiffness and HP)) barely take any significant damage from them. You really dont know that AI connie was made of, neither its building quality. 

Edited by Intrepido

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Fletch67    285

A bigger difference between the damage of small calibre and large calibre shot would help. At close range heavy shots should pass right through a smaller ship and damage both sides at the same time.

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Cmdr RideZ    604
43 minutes ago, Intrepido said:

Bigger caliber guns (24pd and up) should have a bonus for damaging a weaker ship structure, like the frigate one,

Would it be the same if they would just make damage difference to be greater between different cannon sizes?  Instead of 2 pts, make it 4 pts?

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Wesreidau    419

Structure gives us some more granularity in balancing ships within their class. You could have extra structure points in a slower ship, less in a faster ship, and so adjust their balance without having to stack up more armor on the slow ship. Furthermore cannonballs going through the gun decks won't cause a leak, so it never made sense for running out of armor to start leaks anyway. Heck, for a while when I started I was more worried about bow damage because I was under the impression the water pressure would be higher through those holes as I sailed forward. A lot of things don't make sense in a game, but structure points give us more of a game to work with.

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Cmdr RideZ    604

Central structure could be removed if we had no repair kits.  Repair kits maybe create other unrealistic situations as well.  Maybe think about the game without repair kits?

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The Spud    571

The Spud

Victory

3 Flag Captain Fleet Missions

Over all I am happy with the results, it seems like a Victory broadside VS 4th and 5th rates is hurting allot more then on the current version, but that might have been only an impression. The structural damage is realistic and it might shorten the duration of otherwise long stretched battles. I do wonder if newer players will appreciate the fact that stern raking is even more deadly now, because either avoiding a stern rake or performing a stern rake requires a bit of skill.

The real reason I wanted to comment is that in one of the fleet flag captain missions where I believe I was up against 12 enemy ships, I had about 3 enemy AI ships go into fireshock and explode. I have never seen an AI go in fireshock and it was only in that one specific mission, the other missions in my opinion had a slightly above average amount of fires but no fireshock or explosion.

It might be that one ships exploded and has put the others on fire, as I noticed that they have no intention of "running" away when a nearby ship is in fire shock, they rather tend to flock together around the bonfire. Will provide screenshots if I ever encounter this again.

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Why do a structure at zero  make the ship sink ? Can't he just be considered as a kill and stand like surrendered ships with no possibility to transfer crew on it ? Is it because non-sunken ships needs to be given to someone at the end of a battle ? It could be given with one dura to the one who got the kill.

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rediii    2,683
3 minutes ago, Baptiste Gallouédec said:

Why do a structure at zero  make the ship sink ? Can't he just be considered as a kill and stand like surrendered ships with no possibility to transfer crew on it ? Is it because non-sunken ships needs to be given to someone at the end of a battle ? It could be given with one dura to the one who got the kill.

Wouldnt this kill the whole eco because no ships die anymore?

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Cmdr RideZ    604

I think I may have said something similar before but...

Central Structure (CS)

If we have repair kits and we want to keep the CS, we could maybe do something like this...

CS takes only damage from side hits if there are no armor left on that side.  Maybe also from hits that cause leaks.

If repair kit is used, it will 1st repair CS, and after that is in full health it repairs armor.  Ship is sinking if it does not have side armor, like atm.

Repair kits should be used before you lose your armor, no benefits from void-armor.  Stern rakes should not do CS damage.  SR already has its purpose, no reasons to buff it.

If you remove repairs, CS is useless.  CS could have a purpose with repairs.

If leaks would cause CS damage through armor, that would simply and slightly buff leaks.  Leaks could be buffed a bit.

 

1. You shoot someones side away, he waits that you leave.  You shoot his void-armor and are forced to fight vs others.  He repairs and sails away. :(

2. You shoot someones side away, and before you are forced to leave, you shoot another or 2 broadsides to make sure that he sinks. :)

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Liquicity    2,833

It sure is way easier now to sink ships. Took 2 broadsides of double ball in my aggie to sink an endymion

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The Red Duke    5,951

At 100m ? Pouring the full force of all the Aggamemnon broadside weight into a Endy planking ? Sure deal :) 

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Sir Texas Sir    3,271
On 4/14/2017 at 7:37 AM, Liquicity said:

It sure is way easier now to sink ships. Took 2 broadsides of double ball in my aggie to sink an endymion

 

  Reveal hidden contents

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That looks like only 2 broad sides.  As you second pictured he still has center structure.  Though what you expect Edymion aren't meant to be tuff brawlers.   Of course your going to tear it up at point blank range with double ball.   

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Slamz    1,521
5 hours ago, Hodo said:

The raking damage is good, you dont do as much structure damage but more module and internal damage to guns and crew.

This is what I'm most curious about.

I have not tried the new system but in ye olden days my complaint was that I would absolutely outsail someone, 5th rate vs 5th rate, get in a number of great cannonball rakes and still lose the fight even though he never once raked me. All of my rakes met with diminishing returns on crew kills and didn't do a lot of gun damage and with no structure and no holes in his ship, it still came down to a broadside battle. Me spending broadsides on raking damage actually made me lose fights I could have won if I'd just saved up for more broadsides.

I just hope this new system makes rakes really significant, not just for crew kills but for actual damage. If a Frigate rakes a Trincom 5 times from <100m, that Trincom should probably be a bloody pulp. In the old system it would just mean he'd lost a fair number of crew but could still win the fight if he won the broadside shootouts.

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